PTS Natch Potes: NB Resource Gain Nerf

Autolycus

This is disappointing:
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

What was the purpose of this change? This has functioned this way since launch, and I've never seen someone complain about it. For PvE, this was golden for tanking large groups. For PvP, it only makes sense that if one stands in an aoe, then the tank would benefit from resource recovery in exchange for the small amount of damage that tanks typically do.

The cloak nerf doesn't bother me, and I think there are several other tweaks to NBs that are well-placed. But this provided a lot of utility for NB tanks, and I don't see the reason for it being changed.

Zavus

NB tanking nerfed ugh

WolfingHour

A totally uncalled nerf to SA which only pushes NB tanks towards engine guardian even more and they were the only ones that could do without.

@Wrobel
Having to wrap your build are the same two pieces of gear is not FUN. Having to babysit your stamina bar if you want to do just a bit more than just hold block and taunt is not FUN. Having to start your pledge group by getting a templar first is not FUN.

LeifErickson

I hope this change gets reverted by the time of the release. This was so unnecessary and basically destroys a lot of NB dps builds as well, not just tanks.

Tryxus

I kinda loled at this

Besides Lotus Fan, I don't use DoTs and I have no trouble managing my resources with Siphoning Attacks as a tank/DPS/PvPer.

It's a good and necessary (bug)fix

bikerangelo

Not even joking, they're just buffing the dps abilities of every class and removing the tanking/healing capabilities across the board, aside from some of the DK buffs.

Autolycus

Tryxus wrote: »

I kinda loled at this

Besides Lotus Fan, I don't use DoTs and I have no trouble managing my resources with Siphoning Attacks as a tank/DPS/PvPer.

It's a good and necessary (bug)fix

Up until this point, I wasn't aware it was a bug at all. I don't believe it's necessary to manage resources, but it added a lot of utility for NBs as tanks.

Also, why is it a necessary change to be made? I've never seen anyone complain about this before.

Autolycus

Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

I'm interested in the bolded portion in particular. Has anyone had an opportunity to test it on the PTS? In my experience, it never ticked on every proc of a DoT, so I may just be reading too much into it.

hrothbern

Just tested SA in PTS:

SA no longer procs from Twisting Path & Caltrops

GreenSoup2HoT

Caltrop's and Siphoning Attack's was cheesy imo. Glad it's fixed.

Tryxus

Autolycus wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I kinda loled at this

Besides Lotus Fan, I don't use DoTs and I have no trouble managing my resources with Siphoning Attacks as a tank/DPS/PvPer.

It's a good and necessary (bug)fix

Up until this point, I wasn't aware it was a bug at all. I don't believe it's necessary to manage resources, but it added a lot of utility for NBs as tanks.

Also, why is it a necessary change to be made? I've never seen anyone complain about this before.

Well, considering you get a fixed amount of Magicka and Stamina with every attack, having this proc on every DoT tick seems a bit overkill to me.

It might be a bit harder for NB tanks now, but I don't think it's that bad. Even without SA proccing on DoT ticks, SA still gives plenty of utility to every NB build (tank, DPS, ganker,...) and makes it hard to run out of resources.

Besides, there's still Shards, Engine Guardian,... which is why I don't think this change is that big a deal. A neccessity if you have to ask me

WolfingHour

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Caltrop's and Siphoning Attack's was cheesy imo. Glad it's fixed.

I do not agree considering:
1) it didn't proc on basic attacks so you couldn't get the base 891 on every tick of caltrops anymore;
2) the ticks went from a 0.5 to 1 second step so few chances to proc, even if the skill has an internal CD of 1 sec;
3) caltrops has a *very* expensive up front cost.

More and more this sounds like a performance improvement than a balancing one, which is yet another bitter pill to swallow.

Autolycus

Tryxus wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I kinda loled at this

Besides Lotus Fan, I don't use DoTs and I have no trouble managing my resources with Siphoning Attacks as a tank/DPS/PvPer.

It's a good and necessary (bug)fix

Up until this point, I wasn't aware it was a bug at all. I don't believe it's necessary to manage resources, but it added a lot of utility for NBs as tanks.

Also, why is it a necessary change to be made? I've never seen anyone complain about this before.

Well, considering you get a fixed amount of Magicka and Stamina with every attack, having this proc on every DoT tick seems a bit overkill to me.

It might be a bit harder for NB tanks now, but I don't think it's that bad. Even without SA proccing on DoT ticks, SA still gives plenty of utility to every NB build (tank, DPS, ganker,...) and makes it hard to run out of resources.

Besides, there's still Shards, Engine Guardian,... which is why I don't think this change is that big a deal. A neccessity if you have to ask me

I've been using siphoning attacks for tanking since AA and HRC were introduced. I have recently and will continue to advocate for making tanking more challenging, but nerfing a class is not adding challenge, only frustration. It never has proc'd off of every DoT tick. This is why I posed the question about the bolded portion in my previous statement. What I want to know is what DoT was causing it to proc for every tick, and if it still can proc off of DoT ticks in general.

We're not debating the viability of NB tanks here. The question I pose is about the "fix" itself and what was causing the issue, as I've never even heard of this being a problem before.

I don't see EG as a viable alternative for my build. It would drastically alter my setup, which poses the question, "Why must I relearn my build every time a new update comes out?" It's getting old, and I won't change from wearing 2 5-sets just b/c of this. As I said before, it's not necessary for DoTs to proc siphon regen to be a viable build, but it's certainly not necessary to remove it.

Taking away utility like this merits adding AoE crowd control for NBs that doesn't force them to run the other direction.

Autolycus

hrothbern wrote: »

Just tested SA in PTS:

SA no longer procs from Twisting Path & Caltrops

Thanks for confirming

Autolycus

WolfingHour wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Caltrop's and Siphoning Attack's was cheesy imo. Glad it's fixed.

I do not agree considering:
1) it didn't proc on basic attacks so you couldn't get the base 891 on every tick of caltrops anymore;
2) the ticks went from a 0.5 to 1 second step so few chances to proc, even if the skill has an internal CD of 1 sec;
3) caltrops has a *very* expensive up front cost.

More and more this sounds like a performance improvement than a balancing one, which is yet another bitter pill to swallow.

I absolutely agree with this. Considering how much caltrops costs to cast, it's far from "cheesy." There is a high up-front investment for a longer-lasting benefit of resource gain. It's a very valuable utility for NB tanks that is unique to the class, and provides enjoyment to those that play the build. I don't want to debate class balance here, as I intended this discussion to be focused around the issue & fix itself, but I will say that it wasn't unfair or unbalanced, hence why I see no reason for the change.

I might also add that caltrops didn't proc the siphoning regen on every tick. I've tested my tanking build extensively and this has never been the case. What they are actually saying with this fix is:

Removed the potential for siphoning attacks to proc off of any DoT ticks.

WolfingHour

Autolycus wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Caltrop's and Siphoning Attack's was cheesy imo. Glad it's fixed.

I do not agree considering:
1) it didn't proc on basic attacks so you couldn't get the base 891 on every tick of caltrops anymore;
2) the ticks went from a 0.5 to 1 second step so few chances to proc, even if the skill has an internal CD of 1 sec;
3) caltrops has a *very* expensive up front cost.

More and more this sounds like a performance improvement than a balancing one, which is yet another bitter pill to swallow.

I absolutely agree with this. Considering how much caltrops costs to cast, it's far from "cheesy." There is a high up-front investment for a longer-lasting benefit of resource gain. It's a very valuable utility for NB tanks that is unique to the class, and provides enjoyment to those that play the build. I don't want to debate class balance here, as I intended this discussion to be focused around the issue & fix itself, but I will say that it wasn't unfair or unbalanced, hence why I see no reason for the change.

I might also add that caltrops didn't proc the siphoning regen on every tick. I've tested my tanking build extensively and this has never been the case. What they are actually saying with this fix is:

Removed the potential for siphoning attacks to proc off of any DoT ticks.

Apologies for almost hijacking your thread.

To your point, my takeaway from the patch note is not that SA could proc on all ticks but could proc on any of them.

English is not my primary language though.

Autolycus

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Caltrop's and Siphoning Attack's was cheesy imo. Glad it's fixed.

The cost of caltrops is roughly 1/3 - 1/2 the total stamina pool for a NB tank. It's high initial investment was offset by periodic gains that sum up to equal more than the initial cost. Now there is no reason to use caltrops, so not only are NB tanks not benefiting from the resource regen mechanic (that has always been in place), but they miss out on a significant AoE snare as well, because the cost of using it is unjustifiable.

I'd like to point out that NB tanks resorted to caltrops as a direct result of not having access to AoE CC skills that DKs and Sorcs both have. If NB tanks had something other than fear for AoE CC (which I think we can all agree is not an efficient means of crowd control in PvE) this wouldn't have been necessary to begin with.

Nerfing resource management for NBs is not a step in the right direction. What will be next? Take away Dark Deal? Nerf Talons? If the aim is to make tanking more challenging, I suggest looking toward adding mechanics to fights rather than nerfing classes.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

SA already only procc'd off certain DoTs after the initial hit. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't for example. Cripple also already didn't proc it (to my knowledge). Caltrops was somewhat different in terms of what it counted as (used to proc basic attack tick, then that was removed with IC update so it only have the % chance to proc).

Now that Siphoning Attacks can't proc off Twisting Path and Caltrops (just tested it on PTS), I think ZOS should have a look at the value of its stat return. Resource management was the main strong point of NB tanks, but that is now largely diminished because of the overall reduce chance to proc SA. Like others have pointed out, this is on top of the nerf to AoE ground target DoTs ticking every 1 second instead of the previous .5 second. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking was key for boss fights where you can't afford to drop block often either because boss attacks are communicated well, bugged, attacks from adds at same time as boss, etc. SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, but blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy only goes so far in maintaining stamina (and magicka) while blocking multiple attacks, taunting, buffing, etc. Sap Essence is still a strong way to proc it, but requires there to be multiple mobs, so not good for many prolonged boss fights or fights with lots of ranged adds.

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really effective combo, but admittedly OP in some situations (though much less so since it's tweak in the IC update). Since that was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

Since they can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that ground target AoE DoTs like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of these AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow lines passives, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (so the same as it has been).

Autolycus

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SA already only procc'd off certain DoTs after the initial hit. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't for example. Cripple also already didn't proc it (to my knowledge). Caltrops was somewhat different in terms of what it counted as (used to proc basic attack tick, then that was removed with IC update so it only have the % chance to proc).

Now that Siphoning Attacks can't proc off Twisting Path and Caltrops (just tested it on PTS), I think ZOS should have a look at the value of its stat return. Resource management was the main strong point of NB tanks, but that is now largely diminished because of the overall reduce chance to proc SA. Like others have pointed out, this is on top of the nerf to AoE ground target DoTs ticking every 1 second instead of the previous .5 second. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking was key for boss fights where you can't afford to drop block often either because boss attacks are communicated well, bugged, attacks from adds at same time as boss, etc. SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, but blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy only goes so far in maintaining stamina (and magicka) while blocking multiple attacks, taunting, buffing, etc. Sap Essence is still a strong way to proc it, but requires there to be multiple mobs, so not good for many prolonged boss fights or fights with lots of ranged adds.

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really effective combo, but admittedly OP in some situations. Since that was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

Since they can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that ground target AoE DoTs like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of these AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow lines passives, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (so the same as it has been).

I genuinely could not agree more. You have covered virtually every aspect of this change that needed to be addressed. I also agree with adding the AoE cap limitations, if ZOS legitimately thinks that it was too powerful in combination with caltrops. This is just another example (much like zero stam regen while blocking) where they remove a mechanic completely instead of tweaking it fairly.

If this change is to remain, then one of two things needs to happen:
1. Examine the restorative capabilities of Siphoning Attacks and adjust it to accommodate the major hit we are taking from this change, or
2. Add an AoE CC ability for NBs (which we all know will cause an uproar in the community, but is fair nonetheless)

dodgehopper_ESO

Yeah this changes my Nightblade build as well Poor little argonian.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Autolycus wrote: »

This is just another example (much like zero stam regen while blocking) where they remove a mechanic completely instead of tweaking it fairly.

That really is a persistent theme, isn't it?

Therium104

Autolycus wrote: »

This is disappointing:
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

What was the purpose of this change? This has functioned this way since launch, and I've never seen someone complain about it. For PvE, this was golden for tanking large groups. For PvP, it only makes sense that if one stands in an aoe, then the tank would benefit from resource recovery in exchange for the small amount of damage that tanks typically do.

The cloak nerf doesn't bother me, and I think there are several other tweaks to NBs that are well-placed. But this provided a lot of utility for NB tanks, and I don't see the reason for it being changed.

It is a good change.

Autolycus

Therium104 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

This is disappointing:
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

What was the purpose of this change? This has functioned this way since launch, and I've never seen someone complain about it. For PvE, this was golden for tanking large groups. For PvP, it only makes sense that if one stands in an aoe, then the tank would benefit from resource recovery in exchange for the small amount of damage that tanks typically do.

The cloak nerf doesn't bother me, and I think there are several other tweaks to NBs that are well-placed. But this provided a lot of utility for NB tanks, and I don't see the reason for it being changed.

It is a good change.

You are, of course, welcome to have that opinion. I believe it would benefit the community more if you actually shared why you believe that to be true, however. Otherwise, it simply looks like you are disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, which isn't constructive at all.

I might note that all of your discussions are calls for buffing DKs, which you got. Note also that I support pretty much every addition or change that was made to DKs too. Many of them are fantastic improvements to utility, and the healing buffs are truly great. I also noticed that you are a very strong advocate of nerfing NBs, though you tend to be a bit "rage" in your opinions of NBs in general.

Zeg0ta

@Therium104 please explain why you think this is a good change.

Cody

the class lacks any kind of class based damage shield or reliable class based self heal, it is only fair in my opinion that it has something like SA, which in reality ticks about only 10% of an entire fight and is not an instant resource filler to begin with.

this change will not do that much harm in my opinion. Caltrops has a hefty cost, and being forced to use something else to proc it (and I will be honest, despite what I just said, SA proccing off of caltrops is a bit extreme in my opinion) will allow people to save some stamina in using less expensive abilities.

Autolycus

Cody wrote: »

the class lacks any kind of class based damage shield or reliable class based self heal, it is only fair in my opinion that it has something like SA, which in reality ticks about only 10% of an entire fight and is not an instant resource filler to begin with.

this change will not do that much harm in my opinion. Caltrops has a hefty cost, and being forced to use something else to proc it (and I will be honest, despite what I just said, SA proccing off of caltrops is a bit extreme in my opinion) will allow people to save some stamina in using less expensive abilities.

I'm inclined to agree. Magicka NBs have very high self-healing potential, and magicka tanks can produce a reasonable amount of self-healing as well, but it's certainly not a BoL or a Hardened Ward. I'm okay with not having these things, but it is rather disappointing to have them remove recovery potential.

Honestly, I think the best fix to the proc on DoTs is this:

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really effective combo, but admittedly OP in some situations (though much less so since it's tweak in the IC update). Since that was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

At least then the initial investment from caltrops would still be offset by resource gain, just on a smaller scale, and we would have incentive as NB tanks to continue using caltrops. I love caltrops, not just for the SA combo, but for the snare and the amount of area it covers. This change means I'll be looking for a different skill to put on my bar in it's place, though I'd rather just continue using caltrops.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Autolycus wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

the class lacks any kind of class based damage shield or reliable class based self heal, it is only fair in my opinion that it has something like SA, which in reality ticks about only 10% of an entire fight and is not an instant resource filler to begin with.

this change will not do that much harm in my opinion. Caltrops has a hefty cost, and being forced to use something else to proc it (and I will be honest, despite what I just said, SA proccing off of caltrops is a bit extreme in my opinion) will allow people to save some stamina in using less expensive abilities.

I'm inclined to agree. Magicka NBs have very high self-healing potential, and magicka tanks can produce a reasonable amount of self-healing as well, but it's certainly not a BoL or a Hardened Ward. I'm okay with not having these things, but it is rather disappointing to have them remove recovery potential.

Honestly, I think the best fix to the proc on DoTs is this:

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really effective combo, but admittedly OP in some situations (though much less so since it's tweak in the IC update). Since that was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

At least then the initial investment from caltrops would still be offset by resource gain, just on a smaller scale, and we would have incentive as NB tanks to continue using caltrops. I love caltrops, not just for the SA combo, but for the snare and the amount of area it covers. This change means I'll be looking for a different skill to put on my bar in it's place, though I'd rather just continue using caltrops.

Yea, aside from proccing SA, Caltrops is great for grabbing all the aggro in a room and preventing stray mobs from quickly getting your healer!

myrrrorb14_ESO

But I a m like 2hrs away from unlocking Siphoning attacks on my level 20 saptank...

Destyran

Autolycus wrote: »

This is disappointing:
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

What was the purpose of this change? This has functioned this way since launch, and I've never seen someone complain about it. For PvE, this was golden for tanking large groups. For PvP, it only makes sense that if one stands in an aoe, then the tank would benefit from resource recovery in exchange for the small amount of damage that tanks typically do.

The cloak nerf doesn't bother me, and I think there are several other tweaks to NBs that are well-placed. But this provided a lot of utility for NB tanks, and I don't see the reason for it being changed.

Welcome to the world of Templars!!! Muhuhahahahahaha

Autolycus

Destyran wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

This is disappointing:
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

What was the purpose of this change? This has functioned this way since launch, and I've never seen someone complain about it. For PvE, this was golden for tanking large groups. For PvP, it only makes sense that if one stands in an aoe, then the tank would benefit from resource recovery in exchange for the small amount of damage that tanks typically do.

The cloak nerf doesn't bother me, and I think there are several other tweaks to NBs that are well-placed. But this provided a lot of utility for NB tanks, and I don't see the reason for it being changed.

Welcome to the world of Templars!!! Muhuhahahahahaha

Lol! I'm certainly not denying that it's the case.

I support a lot of the things templars want/need, even here on the forums (I have one as well, so I understand the perspective). It would be nice if they started doing real balance adjustments and fewer nerfs. This isn't even a nerf that people were calling for (or at least, not a large scale)!

Autolycus

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

There are some really good points and suggestions in this thread pertaining to the changes of Siphoning Attacks. I find a lot of them to be very constructive and thorough, and would like you to consider some of what has been stated here. It would be very beneficial for the NB class overall if we could get ZOS to settle on a middle-ground, somewhere between having it proc on DoT ticks and removing it completely. Personally, I like @ThatNeonZebraAgain 's suggestion for implementing an AoE cap feature for the siphoning attacks regen proc.

I think it's clear from this thread and others that NB tanks are at least willing to acknowledge the issue which you are attempting to resolve with this change, though the majority opinion so far is that the current intended change is not entirely reasonable. I believe it is a step in the right direction for class balance, but I also believe there is a better alternative.

I would note also that I've seen at least one other thread which addressed the effects of this change on NB dps builds as well, and what I've seen in those posts has been very insightful and constructive. Any consideration for modifying this change would be greatly appreciated!