DK Flame Lash Morph Magic Range

Therium104

Flame lash should morph to a high damage magic based ranged attack that applies a stacking DoT. For those of you under the delusion that DK have survivability while wearing all light armor use your brains. At least Sorcs have shields.

The other morph could stamina based, melee, and heal on hit.

MaxwellC

I'd prefer an attribute style dk flame lash while they're at it My stam DK needs some good moves instead of WB.

ryanborror

Use force pulse for ranged fights

Tomato

Wtb stamina morph

Therium104

ryanborror wrote: »

Use force pulse for ranged fights

Or have a ranged class ability. Lol.

Dovahmiim

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

Witar

Ranged whip is kind of useless cause some of your other dots need you to be in melee range anyway.

Therium104

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

I disagree. The class needs a ranged morph and stamina morph to flame lash. Here is an idea. How about the class have abilites players use.

DoTs in pvp? How exactly can this type of damage work when a fight last .5 seconds. Also, in pve a DK must wear light armor but have less survivability than a Sorc and be forced to stay in melee range due to bad class design.

All of your suggestions fix nothing. Yes, it would be nice if the dots were more effective but do you even play pvp. A NB will kill you before the second tick of said Dot. PvP is about burst. You are to naive to even understand basic game mechanics.

And in pve DK are forced to use force pulse as the main attack? Really??? Apparently you missed the memo. Flame lash currently sucks.

Sorcs are the hardest hitting pve dps. Just don't comment anymore. Ridiculous man.

Draxys

They need to be very careful with changing flame lash. No matter what they do, there will be a large numbers of players who will raise hell.

And like many others, I stand by the opinion that DKs still do not need range, mobility, or an execute. DKs need better passives, and better survivability. When you take all of your game's survival mechanics and nerf the hell out of them, the class that relied on them the most is obviously going to be in a bad place if you don't compensate that class with something else. Ergo, DK today.

Therium104

Draxys wrote: »

They need to be very careful with changing flame lash. No matter what they do, there will be a large numbers of players who will raise hell.

And like many others, I stand by the opinion that DKs still do not need range, mobility, or an execute. DKs need better passives, and better survivability. When you take all of your game's survival mechanics and nerf the hell out of them, the class that relied on them the most is obviously going to be in a bad place if you don't compensate that class with something else. Ergo, DK today.

Maybe. I am just tired of running around a dungeon in light armor with no survivability and trying to stay in melee range. Their is nothing wrong with a ranged morph to flame lash if like a fireball that hits hard and also applies a dot.

Most people will be grateful. Not upset.

MaxwellC

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

Mate I want to use more of my DK class abilities instead of being tied down to two for utility.

DoTs as someone stated does nothing and your suggestion just adds upon it doing nothing. If they made it explode upon purify or time limit reached, that would make it some what ok as damage wise it's still bad.

You keep wrapping your mind around DoTs even talking about a PvP set that increases the damage dots do? When PvP was a resource test instead of a DPS test then DoTs would work as fights would last a lot longer.

DK in general is lacking survivability due to not being able to use dragons blood as it's pretty pathetic in PvP and how it will not heal you for full health.

ianock

I think whip just needs a buff as it is, along with some of the survivability tools that dk has (dragons blood) otherwise I very much disagree that DKs in light are not survivable. They have many tools to help themselves including many different sources of shields + resistance boosts.

I do like the stamina morph idea (melee burst damage with a heal instead of a dot), except not for whip. Instead I feel that change belongs to unstable flame. It fits better aesthetically and stops every dk only using whip. Thus keep diversity, we don't want 1 skill to be the only skill everyone uses.

Frawr

Do not give DK a stamina morph of whip.

Instead, fix the survivability of draconic power.

#nostaminawhipmorph

Therium104

ianock wrote: »

I think whip just needs a buff as it is, along with some of the survivability tools that dk has (dragons blood) otherwise I very much disagree that DKs in light are not survivable. They have many tools to help themselves including many different sources of shields + resistance boosts.

I do like the stamina morph idea (melee burst damage with a heal instead of a dot), except not for whip. Instead I feel that change belongs to unstable flame. It fits better aesthetically and stops every dk only using whip. Thus keep diversity, we don't want 1 skill to be the only skill everyone uses.

DK in light armor has horrible survivability. Look at Sorcerer. The reason the Sorc has crazy shields is they were intended to wear light armor. I believe DK was supposed to wear heavy, and as a result was not designed with the shields, but with the current resource requirements a dps magic dk MUST wear light armor to be effective. The devs have changed so many things since launch I believe the original class designs are broken.

We currently have no skill NB spamming abilities with multiple passives and effects and killing players in under one second. Sorcs with more defense then dragon knights and more damage. Overload.......

The game is broke and no where near balanced. Magic DK need a buff and a more effective direct damage ability.

And people just need to drop the stamina dk statements. Stam DK uses almost no class abilities. Yes, dragon leap but come on.

Dovahmiim

Therium104 wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

I disagree. The class needs a ranged morph and stamina morph to flame lash. Here is an idea. How about the class have abilites players use.

DoTs in pvp? How exactly can this type of damage work when a fight last .5 seconds. Also, in pve a DK must wear light armor but have less survivability than a Sorc and be forced to stay in melee range due to bad class design.

All of your suggestions fix nothing. Yes, it would be nice if the dots were more effective but do you even play pvp. A NB will kill you before the second tick of said Dot. PvP is about burst. You are to naive to even understand basic game mechanics.

And in pve DK are forced to use force pulse as the main attack? Really??? Apparently you missed the memo. Flame lash currently sucks.

Sorcs are the hardest hitting pve dps. Just don't comment anymore. Ridiculous man.

Woah now, I simply stated by opinion, no need to lose your temper

Why does it need a ranged morph? Would exactly would that solve in PvP with the prevalence of gap closers anyhow?
Stamina DK is perhaps the strongest 1v1 class in game at the moment, it does not need a buff, and plenty of Stamina DKs find use out of Unstable Flame (a DoT, btw) due to it actually being useful.

"How about the class have abilities players use." - I agree, so how about instead of changing one skill like you proposed, we focus on fixing other aspects of the class.... like... DoTs??

Between bad players who do not know counters to many skills, fights are quite short. However fights between good players are still very much a game of resources, albeit not as much as in 1.5. Think back to 1.6, when DKs could utilise blocking play styles, this gave DKs a unique resistance to typical burst damage you seem to be so afraid of. If you are dying before the second tick of one of your DoTs then I would wager the issue is more your lack of skill than the class you play. This, ironically, indicates that it is you who fails to fully comprehend game mechanics.

It seems your gripe is more with the DK class's lack of survivability, not with their offense. I have long suggested that regenerating stamina while blocking become a heavy armour passive, and that skills like GDB, Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield (Templar Skill) ignore the effects of Battle Spirit in Cyrodiil, due to their scaling off of health. This would allow DKs to once again play PvP as more of a resource management class.

If we are talking about PvE, if you are forced to use force pulse, then I'm sorry but you are either running with bad groups, or severely lacking in skill. I play Magicka Dk and Magicka Templar, and I have absolutely no issue with any content in game right now, playing 2 melee based builds. Flame Lash builds in PvE currently hit the highest DPS numbers, this is non-disputable. Tell me a fight in game that you are having trouble with due to the increased risk of being in melee range, and I will tell you how to beat it.

Sorc DPS is highest when they have stored up 1000 ultimate for a certain fight, however their DPS across the board during a very long fight is lower than the top magicka DKs. To play Devil's advocate with myself here, even if you were to take Sorc Overload spam as their overall DPS, magicka DKs are a close second.

As for asking whether or not I play PvP, I consider myself to be a very skilled PvP player, you are welcome to watch the video linked in my Signature for proof of this.

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

Mate I want to use more of my DK class abilities instead of being tied down to two for utility.

DoTs as someone stated does nothing and your suggestion just adds upon it doing nothing. If they made it explode upon purify or time limit reached, that would make it some what ok as damage wise it's still bad.

You keep wrapping your mind around DoTs even talking about a PvP set that increases the damage dots do? When PvP was a resource test instead of a DPS test then DoTs would work as fights would last a lot longer.

DK in general is lacking survivability due to not being able to use dragons blood as it's pretty pathetic in PvP and how it will not heal you for full health.

I like that idea of DK DoTs having a lingering effect once purified. However damage wise they still hit very hard. Although one change I would like to see is for Unstable Flame and Burning Embers to swap, such the Unstable Flame becomes the Magicka Morph, and vice versa.

I wrap my mind around DoTs because this is the core aspect of the class. DoTs are the reason DKs are consistently among the top DPS. Remember not too long ago in 1.6, when people like Skaffa played the resource game with DKs? What has changed since then? The block nerf. As I wrote above in reply to Therium, DK could achieve this kind of play style once again, and be uniquely immune to most burst dmg (except burst involving fear if you have higher ping or bad reaction times), if a heavy armour passive was introduced to regen stamina while blocking.

Read above for my take on GDB, but the argument I'm really trying to make here is that DK DoT build will be, and were a lot more viable when they were able to sustain block, and had working class heals. Given that, it is senseless to discount DoTs as a relic of the past, so to speak, if you don't think my proposed changes will fix anything, be productive and come up with some of your own.

Therium104

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

I disagree. The class needs a ranged morph and stamina morph to flame lash. Here is an idea. How about the class have abilites players use.

DoTs in pvp? How exactly can this type of damage work when a fight last .5 seconds. Also, in pve a DK must wear light armor but have less survivability than a Sorc and be forced to stay in melee range due to bad class design.

All of your suggestions fix nothing. Yes, it would be nice if the dots were more effective but do you even play pvp. A NB will kill you before the second tick of said Dot. PvP is about burst. You are to naive to even understand basic game mechanics.

And in pve DK are forced to use force pulse as the main attack? Really??? Apparently you missed the memo. Flame lash currently sucks.

Sorcs are the hardest hitting pve dps. Just don't comment anymore. Ridiculous man.

Woah now, I simply stated by opinion, no need to lose your temper

Why does it need a ranged morph? Would exactly would that solve in PvP with the prevalence of gap closers anyhow?
Stamina DK is perhaps the strongest 1v1 class in game at the moment, it does not need a buff, and plenty of Stamina DKs find use out of Unstable Flame (a DoT, btw) due to it actually being useful.

"How about the class have abilities players use." - I agree, so how about instead of changing one skill like you proposed, we focus on fixing other aspects of the class.... like... DoTs??

Between bad players who do not know counters to many skills, fights are quite short. However fights between good players are still very much a game of resources, albeit not as much as in 1.5. Think back to 1.6, when DKs could utilise blocking play styles, this gave DKs a unique resistance to typical burst damage you seem to be so afraid of. If you are dying before the second tick of one of your DoTs then I would wager the issue is more your lack of skill than the class you play. This, ironically, indicates that it is you who fails to fully comprehend game mechanics.

It seems your gripe is more with the DK class's lack of survivability, not with their offense. I have long suggested that regenerating stamina while blocking become a heavy armour passive, and that skills like GDB, Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield (Templar Skill) ignore the effects of Battle Spirit in Cyrodiil, due to their scaling off of health. This would allow DKs to once again play PvP as more of a resource management class.

If we are talking about PvE, if you are forced to use force pulse, then I'm sorry but you are either running with bad groups, or severely lacking in skill. I play Magicka Dk and Magicka Templar, and I have absolutely no issue with any content in game right now, playing 2 melee based builds. Flame Lash builds in PvE currently hit the highest DPS numbers, this is non-disputable. Tell me a fight in game that you are having trouble with due to the increased risk of being in melee range, and I will tell you how to beat it.

Sorc DPS is highest when they have stored up 1000 ultimate for a certain fight, however their DPS across the board during a very long fight is lower than the top magicka DKs. To play Devil's advocate with myself here, even if you were to take Sorc Overload spam as their overall DPS, magicka DKs are a close second.

As for asking whether or not I play PvP, I consider myself to be a very skilled PvP player, you are welcome to watch the video linked in my Signature for proof of this.

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

The primary focus of the DK class is DoTs. Buffing Flame Lash in any way would break PvE DPS, as magicka DKs are currently the hardest hitting DPS. Instead of coming up with fixes that could very likely bring the DK class to the point of being just as OP as Magicka Sorcs, how about trying to improve the effectiveness of the primary DK DPS tools. Stam DK should not get a stamina flame lash morph, this would further homogenise the classes, Stamina DK would be absolutely fine if their DoTs were more effective. If you want instant cast DPS on a Stam DK, use Puncture.

Bringing the focus back to Magicka DK, here are some ideas to help bring them up to par DPS wise in pvp.

• Remove the CP passive that reduces DoT damage
• Modify the nature of DoTs so that DoTs applied before a damage shield is casted should continue to damage a player's health pool, and not the shield.
• A PvP set with a 5-piece bonus that increases damage dealt from DoTs, such that DoT skills would deal considerably higher damage when compared to taking advantage of something like Julianos 5-piece bonus (+299 spell damage)

Notice how these abilities address the mechanics that reduce the viability of DoT builds, without unnecessarily buffing DK damage. This would bring DK offensive capabilities up to a good point. The bigger issue at hand is increasing the survivability of magicka DKs, which is definitely lacking by comparison to other classes.

Mate I want to use more of my DK class abilities instead of being tied down to two for utility.

DoTs as someone stated does nothing and your suggestion just adds upon it doing nothing. If they made it explode upon purify or time limit reached, that would make it some what ok as damage wise it's still bad.

You keep wrapping your mind around DoTs even talking about a PvP set that increases the damage dots do? When PvP was a resource test instead of a DPS test then DoTs would work as fights would last a lot longer.

DK in general is lacking survivability due to not being able to use dragons blood as it's pretty pathetic in PvP and how it will not heal you for full health.

I like that idea of DK DoTs having a lingering effect once purified. However damage wise they still hit very hard. Although one change I would like to see is for Unstable Flame and Burning Embers to swap, such the Unstable Flame becomes the Magicka Morph, and vice versa.

I wrap my mind around DoTs because this is the core aspect of the class. DoTs are the reason DKs are consistently among the top DPS. Remember not too long ago in 1.6, when people like Skaffa played the resource game with DKs? What has changed since then? The block nerf. As I wrote above in reply to Therium, DK could achieve this kind of play style once again, and be uniquely immune to most burst dmg (except burst involving fear if you have higher ping or bad reaction times), if a heavy armour passive was introduced to regen stamina while blocking.

Read above for my take on GDB, but the argument I'm really trying to make here is that DK DoT build will be, and were a lot more viable when they were able to sustain block, and had working class heals. Given that, it is senseless to discount DoTs as a relic of the past, so to speak, if you don't think my proposed changes will fix anything, be productive and come up with some of your own.

Lol. It is math. Burst is to high. To state skill has anything to do with the current state of pvp is absurd. Classes are poorly balanced. Why not change flame lash to range. It is a good idea.

So magika dk in light armor is surviving in cyrodiil against nb and other overtuned classes. How about you stop the lies. We need solutions.

Therium104

Let me make this simpler for you guys. The same resource pools for both Sorc and NB that increase damage output also increase survivability. This is not the case for DK. Even with some of the proposed changes by others in this thread the DK will end up with more survivability but no where near the damage. So they can survive as well as a NB or Sorc but with no where near the damage.

Wake up. A change to flame lash is one of many changes that need to be made.

Heavy armor is not an option because of resource mgmt. Horrible game design.

Dovahmiim

Therium104 wrote: »

Let me make this simpler for you guys. The same resource pools for both Sorc and NB that increase damage output also increase survivability. This is not the case for DK. Even with some of the proposed changes by others in this thread the DK will end up with more survivability but no where near the damage. So they can survive as well as a NB or Sorc but with no where near the damage.

Wake up. A change to flame lash is one of many changes that need to be made.

Heavy armor is not an option because of resource mgmt. Horrible game design.

Hey so, been testing magicka DK on PTS, now that ZoS did exactly what I said they needed to do, that is increase the viability of DoTs. Gotta say, magDK DPS in Cyro is exactly where it needs to be. Hate to say it, but, I told you so

Therium104

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Let me make this simpler for you guys. The same resource pools for both Sorc and NB that increase damage output also increase survivability. This is not the case for DK. Even with some of the proposed changes by others in this thread the DK will end up with more survivability but no where near the damage. So they can survive as well as a NB or Sorc but with no where near the damage.

Wake up. A change to flame lash is one of many changes that need to be made.

Heavy armor is not an option because of resource mgmt. Horrible game design.

Hey so, been testing magicka DK on PTS, now that ZoS did exactly what I said they needed to do, that is increase the viability of DoTs. Gotta say, magDK DPS in Cyro is exactly where it needs to be. Hate to say it, but, I told you so

Yea man. Increasing dot damage in a high burst pvp meta. You need to learn logic and basic game mechanics. The changes in totality are not horrible but flamelash still needs a change. Also, dragons blood is not up to par. I don't fault you for your opinions but frankly you, like so many others, cannot see the big picture.

So rejoice but more changes to come. It is okay to be clueless but don't brag about it. Lol