Idea - Increase AP gained for taking keeps

reften

One of the frustrating things about the alliance war...is the nearly disincentive for capturing keeps. Players want to earn AP. So they do things like farm on the Alessia bright...and really don't "play" the big overall game of trying to win the campaign. Why go capture an undefended keep and get little to no ap when I can continue to fight on the bridge and make ap?

To me, "the trying to win the campaign part", if rewards were good enough, could make Eso PVP a lot more fun. And here is how to do it.

Make capturing a keep worth 100,000 AP minimum. So if 20 players take a keep, they're each awarded with 5,000 AP. That does not include the offensive tic, or AP earned from killing defenders. So, if you take a keep, that is 100% unguarded by players, with a group of 20 players, each player should earn 5k AP.

So, what would this do?

20 man groups now have incentive to form up, and do something other than just open field battling.

Two - It reduces the zerg mentality. Why should my 20 man group run with this zerg and take this keep, when we can split off and take a different keep and make more AP?

Now in addition - Make winning the campaign matter more. How about 5,000 tal-var stones for each member of the winning faction? Or 10 random gold mats?

I think these couple of things could immediately spread the forces out more, and reduce the number of times you have the massive bottleneck fighting that occurs at places like the Alessia bridge or the Ash gates...why in turn causes the lag.

Oh and, the 100kAP bonus only kicks in when your faction is pop-locked

Forestd16b14_ESO

First sorry but no that will give more AP for zergs.

Second their already changing the AP gain in U9/Thieves guild.

Crown

@reften The idea is sound, though order of magnitude is a bit extreme. I believe that taking keeps and resources should give a minimum amount of AP per person. Instead of the 25 AP that you get, increasing that to 2,000 for keeps (the same as a solo player making one kill after the patch) and 1,000 for resources would at least incentivize people to play the map.

Once the patch hits, I don't think anyone really understands how easy it will be to make AP if you have the right strategy.

eliisra

Why the hell should you make 5k AP for PvDoor? There's no effort involved, outside of a little riding excursion.

You shouldn't make a bunch of AP if there's no enemies around defending. It encourages one sided/one faction dominated campaigns and we already have way to many of those. At least now they make close to 0 AP, once they zerged down the few enemies they had. With 5k AP each taken keep, they will be greatly rewarded for ruining PvP and nightcapping.

I agree that AP from taking a keep could be increased, but only with very little. More like 350 AP or equivalent to a small quest reward.

Takllin

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

themdogesbite

If if was to rewarding to capture keeps then people would just run arround eacother and cap empty ones, it would probably even be more worth to let a keep flip and then just recap it then actually defending it.

I dont think the solution to makeing people play for the campign more is to buff the AP gain from keeps, its about provideing meanigfull rewards based of the position your factions ends up in.

SmalltalkJava

Keep defense and siege is my favorite pvp activity. So I'm all for increases in rewards. The amount is of course debatable.

Manoekin

Would just trade keeps on an empty campaign.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Manoekin wrote: »

Would just trade keeps on an empty campaign.

^^this. More AP for keeps would encourage trading and letting other factions take your keeps just so you can take them back. The better way to fix it is to award a large amount of AP to the alliance who wins the campaign, based on number of enemies slain during the campaign. Each enemy killed adds 100 or 1000 AP into the pot (exact value would need to be tested), which is then distributes to all alliance members who participated in the campaign as their home campaign. This encourages both slaying and PTFO because you need to win the campaign too. And bonus is smaller on buff servers because there's fewer enemies to kill.

Tankqull

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

reften

Manoekin wrote: »

Would just trade keeps on an empty campaign.

You missed the part about the bonus only applied to pop-locked campaigns.

eliisra wrote: »

Why the hell should you make 5k AP for PvDoor? There's no effort involved, outside of a little riding excursion.

So when blue is pushing down to Roe...taking your group to Glade and capturing it before the blue zerg can react has no skill?

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Would just trade keeps on an empty campaign.

^^this. More AP for keeps would encourage trading and letting other factions take your keeps just so you can take them back. The better way to fix it is to award a large amount of AP to the alliance who wins the campaign, based on number of enemies slain during the campaign. Each enemy killed adds 100 or 1000 AP into the pot (exact value would need to be tested), which is then distributes to all alliance members who participated in the campaign as their home campaign. This encourages both slaying and PTFO because you need to win the campaign too. And bonus is smaller on buff servers because there's fewer enemies to kill.

I guess you missed the part about the bonus only applied to pop-locked campaigns.

ku5h

My only question is, why is there such a big difference between def and offensive ticks. example- "20 ppl take a keep defended by 20 ppl, the will get 500-700AP tick, but if 20 ppl defend agains 20 ppl they will get 1500+AP tick." Why? Because its obviously easyer to defend, you got npcs, oil and s...

Taresgos

5k ap tiks for empty keeps

Angus

reften wrote: »

One of the frustrating things about the alliance war...is the nearly disincentive for capturing keeps

Guild Wars 2 had incentives for capturing keeps.

That prompted the three servers sharing a map to PvDoor farm at certain points in the campaign cycle by doing coordinated laps around the map, back-capping keeps from each other, while purposefully avoiding each other. Quite lame "PvP".

Also, see emp farming. Incentives always tend to lead to abuse of mechanics.

Recremen

Crown wrote: »

@reften The idea is sound, though order of magnitude is a bit extreme. I believe that taking keeps and resources should give a minimum amount of AP per person. Instead of the 25 AP that you get, increasing that to 2,000 for keeps (the same as a solo player making one kill after the patch) and 1,000 for resources would at least incentivize people to play the map.

Once the patch hits, I don't think anyone really understands how easy it will be to make AP if you have the right strategy.

Couldn't have said it better myself. If nothing else, they could scale it not based on a flat player number, but use a step-based system. Thus, if you have 24 people standing on a resource when the tic goes off, it would only give 25 per, 20 people would give 50, 16 gives 100, 12 gives 250, 8 gives 500 and 4 gives 1000. Go one over the step and you're relegated to the next step's base, so 5 people would only earn 500 each in this scenario. Obvious this is the bases, not including what you get for fighting. The idea would be to engineer the exact numbers such that it encouraged risking a smaller group on smaller objectives, but didn't make farming resources more than they could earn per hour than by fighting people.

ThePonzzz

100k AP for a keep? I'm in. Can we get 20k for resources too? I'll be soloing these all day long!

IxSTALKERxI

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Takllin

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Yeah it would have to be part of a bigger overall change to AP rewards.

Tankqull wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

Nope, you wouldn't. Try to be constructive instead of dismissive.

FMonk

Not a fan of rewarding PvDoor of any kind, even if the server is locked.

Iyas

Sry no rewards for pvdoor grps

Iyas

Pls delete

themdogesbite

Takllin wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Yeah it would have to be part of a bigger overall change to AP rewards.

Tankqull wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

Nope, you wouldn't. Try to be constructive instead of dismissive.

You would most definetly get circle raids.. If its more profitable to loose a keep and then reflip it instead of defending it then its quite obvious what would happen. Luckily ZOS is aware of this as they've alreayd mentioned is the cause behind the low AP gains for capping a empty keep.

Morozov

sound idea, but I think the AP gains would be a bit high thus causing the circle-capping. It would at least spread out the groups a bit. Perhaps an increase of AP from the current, but low enough so it keep groups from doing this? I can see the organized groups doing it as it would be quick and sleazy plus it would keep people calm being away from the laggy parts of the map. I like the idea of this only working for pop capped factions. Perhaps make the AP gains from D-ticks larger to encourage defending?

Overall there are too many built-in bottlenecks to the map currently which causes the zerglings to stick to the beaten paths thus assisting in the server issues.



I have to agree with previous posters; 25 ap for taking a resource? pfft, repair a wall once: you get more AP, its safer and its quicker!

Etaniel

Doesn't sound like a good idea, even though your intention might be good. I heard that in Guild wars 2 people circle around taking keeps and take turn in doing so. The whole pvp map is no pvp, all pvd because it gives more points. Don't want that to happen in eso (way too much PvD going on even now)
And that would happen on a pop locked campaign too.

How about things like :
- Doubling the defense ticks if your guild controls the keep/ressource/outpost
- Doubling AP gains on kills of people who've taken a keep in the last 15 min
- Doubling AP gains for 30 min when your faction captures an enemy scroll
- Revising the continuous attack buff with a minor and major version, minor for ressources, major for keeps and outposts

Septimus_Magna

100k AP sounds good for a keep, just log on at 3am when everyone sleeps, flip a couple keeps with a group of 3-4 and profit.

Takllin

themdogesbite wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Yeah it would have to be part of a bigger overall change to AP rewards.

Tankqull wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

Nope, you wouldn't. Try to be constructive instead of dismissive.

You would most definetly get circle raids.. If its more profitable to loose a keep and then reflip it instead of defending it then its quite obvious what would happen. Luckily ZOS is aware of this as they've alreayd mentioned is the cause behind the low AP gains for capping a empty keep.

So you'd make it good enough that it's worth spreading out, but not so high that flipping a keep is worth more AP than actually playing PvP...Then there would be no circle trains flipping resources.

Why is this hard to understand? Everyone goes to one extreme or the other, there is a middle ground...

Your telling me if it was 100 AP each to take a resource, and 300 AP each to take a keep, you'd run around trading them all?

reften

Takllin wrote: »

themdogesbite wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Yeah it would have to be part of a bigger overall change to AP rewards.

Tankqull wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

Nope, you wouldn't. Try to be constructive instead of dismissive.

You would most definetly get circle raids.. If its more profitable to loose a keep and then reflip it instead of defending it then its quite obvious what would happen. Luckily ZOS is aware of this as they've alreayd mentioned is the cause behind the low AP gains for capping a empty keep.

So you'd make it good enough that it's worth spreading out, but not so high that flipping a keep is worth more AP than actually playing PvP...Then there would be no circle trains flipping resources.

Why is this hard to understand? Everyone goes to one extreme or the other, there is a middle ground...

Your telling me if it was 100 AP each to take a resource, and 300 AP each to take a keep, you'd run around trading them all?

Reading the comments on this thread...it occurred to me, many people are ok with the format now. Play the map every once in a while, open field farm every once in a while. General thinking of "I don't want AP for keeps, I want AP for killing people like it is now" because shooting a ballista at a wall is boring.

I guess that's cool. I've always had the idea of the game where it was a AvA game with the end goal of winning the campaign, AP will come, ya have to fight players to win anyway, but currently, that is not the case.

Just tired of so many AD fighting at the bridge and continuing to fight there when blue is pushing down.

In short, if you have two options
Option 1 - Win a 30 day campaign and earn a total of 1 million AP
Option 2 - Loose the 30 day campaign and earn a total of 1.5 million AP

Many would pick option 2. Was trying to make option 2 go away...

Takllin

reften wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

themdogesbite wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I guess that would be one way to split up the population on a pop-locked server. People would be trying to ninja keeps so factions would have to have scouts on all their keeps and fights would be spread out across multiple keeps. Would only work on a pop-locked server though, and even then you might need to increase reward for defence. Like, change how defence tick works so that people don't miss it, they still get it after they leave or something, and increase reward for defending to so that people don't just flip keeps back and forth.

Yeah it would have to be part of a bigger overall change to AP rewards.

Tankqull wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

They need to increase the AP gained from taking all objectives honestly.

25 AP for a resource? Really? It's 100 for a keep...that's abysmal.

If you gave people a high enough value, it would be incentive to spread out and hit other objectives for a worthy reward.

nope all you get is circle raiding for maximizing AP gains...

Nope, you wouldn't. Try to be constructive instead of dismissive.

You would most definetly get circle raids.. If its more profitable to loose a keep and then reflip it instead of defending it then its quite obvious what would happen. Luckily ZOS is aware of this as they've alreayd mentioned is the cause behind the low AP gains for capping a empty keep.

So you'd make it good enough that it's worth spreading out, but not so high that flipping a keep is worth more AP than actually playing PvP...Then there would be no circle trains flipping resources.

Why is this hard to understand? Everyone goes to one extreme or the other, there is a middle ground...

Your telling me if it was 100 AP each to take a resource, and 300 AP each to take a keep, you'd run around trading them all?

Reading the comments on this thread...it occurred to me, many people are ok with the format now. Play the map every once in a while, open field farm every once in a while. General thinking of "I don't want AP for keeps, I want AP for killing people like it is now" because shooting a ballista at a wall is boring.

I guess that's cool. I've always had the idea of the game where it was a AvA game with the end goal of winning the campaign, AP will come, ya have to fight players to win anyway, but currently, that is not the case.

Just tired of so many AD fighting at the bridge and continuing to fight there when blue is pushing down.

In short, if you have two options
Option 1 - Win a 30 day campaign and earn a total of 1 million AP
Option 2 - Loose the 30 day campaign and earn a total of 1.5 million AP

Many would pick option 2. Was trying to make option 2 go away...

I think they took your suggestion too literally and are not able to think outside the box, and look at the suggestion itself of increasing AP values. I think your number is far too high, but I do agree they need to be increased.

I still put my question forth to those who think it would just be objective flipping, that if a Resource was 100, and Keep was 300, would you actually flip those over farming AP?

Ryuho

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

First sorry but no that will give more AP for zergs.

Second their already changing the AP gain in U9/Thieves guild.

This. Bad idea.

hammayolettuce

100k AP !?

Voted best thread of 2016 thus far!

*

kevlarto_ESO

Its a fine line of balance offer to much then we have keep swapping, best thing you can do to improve your current gain for the faction is owning keeps, home keeps are very important, take the enemy keeps, adds to the bonus as well, I would like to see factional objectives benefit the faction more, and personal gain would be a by product of that effort, would have a lot more fighting ebb and flow battles. Once they take the profit away from zerg groups we will not see them many longer, will have to see how the changes go with Thieves Guild update.