Animation Cancelling Fix/Idea

Sneaky-Snurr

The following are my takes on how Animation Cancelling (AC) issue can be tackled and it is fairly straightforward. I'll start with a bit of explanation as to why AC can be good and bad at the same time. My focus here is to completely eradicate the bads and retain the good ones while having minimal to no impact on the gameplay as a whole so bear with me.
Mind you that I will use certain points that will be copy-pasted here from my comments in other threads.

Firstly, the mechanics of no AC gives greater risk-reward (in tandem with the old Ulti generation system) and it offers a much more polished game design as people won't just spam and spam buttons, it actually makes the player give more thought on what to use in his/her arsenal given that the skill bars are locked in-combat. The current unintended system makes it all so confusing that sometimes (and most of the times against people who are well-versed in AC) you can't seem to know what your opponents are using and you don't even have time to react because the animation gets cancelled and damage is still dealt onto you.

Secondly, I actually see the benefit of cancelling animations. What I have problem is that even when the ability is cancelled, damage IS STILL DEALT. That's the biggest flaw in AC currently and that's what I have beef with. If you cancel the animation, damage SHOULDN'T be dealt at all and that's the way it should've been. To deal damage, one has to let the animation complete its cycle and by then and only then can damage be applied onto the victim. This is also to say that you can cancel the animation should you get into a sticky situation.

If you choose to perform an ability, the whole animation has to finish before executing another. It's a choice with opportunity costs which gives even more reward to the player in terms of timing and 'finesse' as stated by @ZOS initially.

AC has rendered attack speed mechanics in this game to be completely useless and it definitely has opened up opportunities for macro users. Hence why I feel animation and impact timing mechanics should be revised and tweaked by the Devs. Also, they have to change the way AC works whether they like it or not (or rather completely eradicate AC, which is much more preferred) because like I said, macro-ers are at large.

Macros are prevalent in this game and it is facilitated by Animation Cancelling. It provides loopholes for macro-ers to deal attacks in a very short period of time. Setting up the timings for macros are key for fluent spams. This macro problem has been the case since launch though the numbers have obviously reduced due to fewer people actively playing. I've actually found a few chars (and a few I know) on the main PvP transitus or wayshrines 'practicing' AC in a cyclical manner. They're undoubtedly setting up macros (and I've been confirmed from the user himself) for that and they won't even respond to you if you try talking to them.

All I can say is here is that AC has brought a lot of imbalances in this game. Whenever people complain nerf this that, it all comes down to AC and knowing @ZOS, they would put a blind eye on AC (which I hope won't be the case for the next major patch/DLC) and impose nerfs onto said abilities. I don't blame the complainers' or the AC users' as it's not their fault to begin with. It's @ZOS's way of dealing with the problem (cries heard->nerf something totally unrelated->profit).

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

krim

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

So this will probably add more lag to pvp.

Sneaky-Snurr

krim wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

So this will probably add more lag to pvp.

@krim
I fail to comprehend why that is the case. What difference does that make compared to what we have currently? Why would it add more lag? It's just a tweak on timing that is all. I really don't see any drawbacks or potential negative impacts from implementing my idea into the game (hypothetically).

mr_wazzabi

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

The following are my takes on how Animation Cancelling (AC) issue can be tackled and it is fairly straightforward. I'll start with a bit of explanation as to why AC can be good and bad at the same time. My focus here is to completely eradicate the bads and retain the good ones while having minimal to no impact on the gameplay as a whole so bear with me.
Mind you that I will use certain points that will be copy-pasted here from my comments in other threads.

Firstly, the mechanics of no AC gives greater risk-reward (in tandem with the old Ulti generation system) and it offers a much more polished game design as people won't just spam and spam buttons, it actually makes the player give more thought on what to use in his/her arsenal given that the skill bars are locked in-combat. The current unintended system makes it all so confusing that sometimes (and most of the times against people who are well-versed in AC) you can't seem to know what your opponents are using and you don't even have time to react because the animation gets cancelled and damage is still dealt onto you.

Secondly, I actually see the benefit of cancelling animations. What I have problem is that even when the ability is cancelled, damage IS STILL DEALT. That's the biggest flaw in AC currently and that's what I have beef with. If you cancel the animation, damage SHOULDN'T be dealt at all and that's the way it should've been. To deal damage, one has to let the animation complete its cycle and by then and only then can damage be applied onto the victim. This is also to say that you can cancel the animation should you get into a sticky situation.

If you choose to perform an ability, the whole animation has to finish before executing another. It's a choice with opportunity costs which gives even more reward to the player in terms of timing and 'finesse' as stated by @ZOS initially.

AC has rendered attack speed mechanics in this game to be completely useless and it definitely has opened up opportunities for macro users. Hence why I feel animation and impact timing mechanics should be revised and tweaked by the Devs. Also, they have to change the way AC works whether they like it or not (or rather completely eradicate AC, which is much more preferred) because like I said, macro-ers are at large.

Macros are prevalent in this game and it is facilitated by Animation Cancelling. It provides loopholes for macro-ers to deal attacks in a very short period of time. Setting up the timings for macros are key for fluent spams. This macro problem has been the case since launch though the numbers have obviously reduced due to fewer people actively playing. I've actually found a few chars (and a few I know) on the main PvP transitus or wayshrines 'practicing' AC in a cyclical manner. They're undoubtedly setting up macros (and I've been confirmed from the user himself) for that and they won't even respond to you if you try talking to them.

All I can say is here is that AC has brought a lot of imbalances in this game. Whenever people complain nerf this that, it all comes down to AC and knowing @ZOS, they would put a blind eye on AC (which I hope won't be the case for the next major patch/DLC) and impose nerfs onto said abilities. I don't blame the complainers' or the AC users' as it's not their fault to begin with. It's @ZOS's way of dealing with the problem (cries heard->nerf something totally unrelated->profit).

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

What attack that is cancelled is causing imbalance? From what I understand, it is only light and medium attacks, which help overall dps, but are almost never the finishing blow. So you're saying light and medium weaving is op? Now way. It only contributes to about 15% overall dps.

Sneaky-Snurr

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

What attack that is cancelled is causing imbalance? From what I understand, it is only light and medium attacks, which help overall dps, but are almost never the finishing blow. So you're saying light and medium weaving is op? Now way. It only contributes to about 15% overall dps.

@mr_wazzabi
Imbalances are caused and is evident from people crying things like 'OMG insta ambush, WB, surprise attack etc. combo OP wtfbbq'. AC and its byproducts (block-casting and light/medium/heavy attack weaving) are the mother of all problems experienced by the complainers crying for nerfs due to the so-called OP abilities. See the relation there?
It's the loophole in AC that needs fixing, NOT the abilities in question hence why this game has gone downhill. You can clearly see that almost everyone uses AC, even myself though I begrudgingly use it just to match the competitive level of the game.

And yes basic attack weavings can be OP at times I have to admit. It allows players to sync up multiple powerful attacks in very quick successions (especially the case between players with low vs. high latency). This has also opened doors for macro-ers to exploit the loopholes in AC by further optimising the timings a human couldn't possibly match up. Don't get me wrong, macro-ers aren't the majority here, but quite a handful use it and it has proved to be a very unbeatable system.

Also, 15% overall DPS? You'd be surprised that AC can contribute a lot more damage than that.

Alucardo

Removing, or even making AC less usable is going to kill 1vXing even more. It's already hard enough, but with ani cancelling it gives us a little edge to pump out some extra DPS.
It adds another layer onto the combat system, making it more interesting, adding an extra depth to explore and master. Without it, I guarantee you the combat in ESO is going to feel clunky and boring.

Finally, Wrobel said to the camera that it was legit and here to stay. If they remove it that's going to be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of players. You know, because they haven't lost enough already.

The game is being dumbed down enough without the removal of AC. If it goes, you may's well just burn the combat system to the ground and implement cooldowns like every other generic MMO.

Malmai

krim wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

So this will probably add more lag to pvp.

I think animation canceling makes lag more than anything else.

Alucardo wrote: »

Removing, or even making AC less usable is going to kill 1vXing even more. It's already hard enough, but with ani cancelling it gives us a little edge to pump out some extra DPS.
It adds another layer onto the combat system, making it more interesting, adding an extra depth to explore and master. Without it, I guarantee you the combat in ESO is going to feel clunky and boring.

Finally, Wrobel said to the camera that it was legit and here to stay. If they remove it that's going to be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of players. You know, because they haven't lost enough already.

The game is being dumbed down enough without the removal of AC. If it goes, you may's well just burn the combat system to the ground and implement cooldowns like every other generic MMO.

1. You shouldnt 1 v 10 in any situation.
2. It doesn't give any layer in combat its just exploit that is allowed and not fixed by ZOS because its too much to code.
3. Game has no cooldown like other mmos have and you want insta cast spells with 10ms time? its paradise for scripters...

Alucardo

Malmai wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

So the fix? (TL;DR version for all you lazy numb-nuts)
Pretty straightforward.
Make it so that the animation has to finish first and foremost for any damage and/or its effects to be applied onto the victim. Simple.
Again, this is also to say that the animation can still be cancelled in the initial period of casting/channeling abilities but the damage won't be applied and at the same time consumes resource pools (magicka/stam). The resource consumption system can be tweaked however.

So this will probably add more lag to pvp.

I think animation canceling makes lag more than anything else.

Nah man. We're making our animations shorter so there's less to process. Doing ESO a favour one step at a time

Kyoma

Yes, lets remove everything that is affected by a person's skill, then we'll all be grey blobs that do the exact same thing....

Recremen

They didn't design the animations around the actual time it takes for an ability to land damage, So I don't really understand the rush to make everything slow and even longer than the global cooldown on abilities. No thanks, nothing needs fixing.

Vangy

If we remove AC, things like light Attack>ability>block>bash will be gone.

Do you have any idea what my single target pve Dps rotation for my dk would look like? Here;

Searing strike> Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb exec exec exec exec exec exec
(Of course refreshing searing strike when u can)

With 400+cp and a properly built toon sustain is a non issue. Removing AC would remove any reason to ever use light or heavy attacks..... It would also become use your biggest hitting skill all the time kind of combat.

Because why use igneous and weave heavy attacks with ability? It's only better when u can use AC. Without AC 2 simple Wb would do more Dps then things like heavy Attack weaves.

mr_wazzabi

Vangy wrote: »

If we remove AC, things like light Attack>ability>block>bash will be gone.

Do you have any idea what my single target pve Dps rotation for my dk would look like? Here;

Searing strike> Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb exec exec exec exec exec exec
(Of course refreshing searing strike when u can)

With 400+cp and a properly built toon sustain is a non issue. Removing AC would remove any reason to ever use light or heavy attacks..... It would also become use your biggest hitting skill all the time kind of combat.

Because why use igneous and weave heavy attacks with ability? It's only better when u can use AC. Without AC 2 simple Wb would do more Dps then things like heavy Attack weaves.

Exactly. Removig ac will turn everybody into spammers.

Having the ability to light and medium weave allows for skillful procs of abilities like merciless resolve, siphoning attacks and expert hunter. Also some of the monster helms only proc off light and heavy attacks. If we're forced to only light attack to proc those helms, people will be bored to death. Light attack weave allows you to dps normally while allowing those abiliies to proc once in a while.

Sneaky-Snurr

WhiskeyMick wrote: »

@WhiskeyMick
Clearly you didn't read my posts at all. Like not at all. I've said in a response to @mr_wazzabi that I use AC a lot and I actually see the benefits of AC. All I'm proposing is a tweak so @ZOS won't nerf anything else. A lot of abilities have been nerfed down to the ground due to excessive use of AC and that led to a lot of complainers crying 'NERF THIS NERF THAT' when really the problem isn't even in the ability itself.
That said, you can stop biatching about this thread if you have nothing constructive or any helpful comments to get around the problem. All you're trying to get are easy agrees who, sadly, have the same mindset as you.

Vangy wrote: »

If we remove AC, things like light Attack>ability>block>bash will be gone.

Do you have any idea what my single target pve Dps rotation for my dk would look like? Here;

Searing strike> Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb exec exec exec exec exec exec
(Of course refreshing searing strike when u can)

With 400+cp and a properly built toon sustain is a non issue. Removing AC would remove any reason to ever use light or heavy attacks..... It would also become use your biggest hitting skill all the time kind of combat.

Because why use igneous and weave heavy attacks with ability? It's only better when u can use AC. Without AC 2 simple Wb would do more Dps then things like heavy Attack weaves.

@Vangy
I'm not asking for a complete removal of AC actually. I'm only presenting a potential tweak that could save us from a lot of imbalances and nerfs. Plus, what you're describing about WB is already happening in-game. Even more so with the current buggy AC as damage is applied even before the animation completes its cycle.
All I'm saying is that the damage shall only be applied onto the victim after the animation cycle ends, so you can still AC but damage won't be applied. That's a really effective game mechanic unlike now which is just spamming a whole bunch of different buttons altogether to achieve quick successions in attacks.
Which is also why I've suggested that cancelled animations should consume their respective resource pools to avoid spamming.

Recremen wrote: »

They didn't design the animations around the actual time it takes for an ability to land damage, So I don't really understand the rush to make everything slow and even longer than the global cooldown on abilities. No thanks, nothing needs fixing.

@Recremen
I get where you're coming from but a global cooldown? It makes the game rather bland with no real thought put into the actions performed in accordance to what the opponents are doing. With the current system, all you're doing is spray and pray really.

Alucardo wrote: »

Removing, or even making AC less usable is going to kill 1vXing even more. It's already hard enough, but with ani cancelling it gives us a little edge to pump out some extra DPS.
It adds another layer onto the combat system, making it more interesting, adding an extra depth to explore and master. Without it, I guarantee you the combat in ESO is going to feel clunky and boring.

Finally, Wrobel said to the camera that it was legit and here to stay. If they remove it that's going to be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of players. You know, because they haven't lost enough already.

The game is being dumbed down enough without the removal of AC. If it goes, you may's well just burn the combat system to the ground and implement cooldowns like every other generic MMO.

@Alucardo
Isn't 1vX-ing the thing that the Devs are concentrating on softening up? Currently, 1vX-ing is still prevalent and effective and I don't think it's been dumbed down. I'm not uber effective in 1vX-ing (I die a lot luls) but I've done several successful attempts in it.

[edited to remove quote]

Sneaky-Snurr

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

If we remove AC, things like light Attack>ability>block>bash will be gone.

Do you have any idea what my single target pve Dps rotation for my dk would look like? Here;

Searing strike> Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb Wb exec exec exec exec exec exec
(Of course refreshing searing strike when u can)

With 400+cp and a properly built toon sustain is a non issue. Removing AC would remove any reason to ever use light or heavy attacks..... It would also become use your biggest hitting skill all the time kind of combat.

Because why use igneous and weave heavy attacks with ability? It's only better when u can use AC. Without AC 2 simple Wb would do more Dps then things like heavy Attack weaves.

Exactly. Removig ac will turn everybody into spammers.

Having the ability to light and medium weave allows for skillful procs of abilities like merciless resolve, siphoning attacks and expert hunter. Also some of the monster helms only proc off light and heavy attacks. If we're forced to only light attack to proc those helms, people will be bored to death. Light attack weave allows you to dps normally while allowing those abiliies to proc once in a while.

@mr_wazzabi
No it won't turn everyone into spammers. As a matter of fact, spamming abilities is pretty much happening as we speak. Recall surprise attack surprise attack surprise attack surprise attack surprise attack spams. All from the current AC system. What I'm proposing is a simple tweak in AC so people won't spam.

Emma_Overload

I don't think I've ever seen a post so full of misinformation and bad ideas.

If the OP's suggestions were implemented, ESO would be UNPLAYABLE. Players would quickly get frustrated because they would keep cancelling attacks by accident as they furiously mashed buttons in the middle of combat. The only way to solve this problem would be to FORCE all attacks and abilities to complete once initiated. You know what that means? You've just forced a de facto COOLDOWN on all actions in the game, even actions that are supposed to be instant.

NO, NO AND NO! I did not sign up to play a WoW clone when ESO was in Beta, and I sure as heck don't want to play one now.

dday3six

This isn't a fix at all...

Cancels aren't used just to deal damage. Buffs and heals are also used in conjunction with weaves and animation canceling. If you only let damage be dealt if the skill or attacks animation completely plays out, but do not do the same for heals and buffs, there will be a huge imbalance. Frankly it would make some builds nigh unkillable. Also a player can't simply spam buttons and achieve proper animation canceling. Timing is a rather important part.

Furthermore this would actually make things worst. Did you know there can be a time discrepancy of what two players see on screen? Nothing in the game actually happens in real time. One Player A's screen a skill could have fully gone off, while it didn't even finish on Player B's So under your suggestion the server will need to interpret which of those veiwing of events is going to be real time, thus putting a lot more strain on the server.

I get that you're trying to help, but honestly it seems like you don't understanding all the intricate details of animation canceling or how a server functions for online gaming.

Recremen

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

They didn't design the animations around the actual time it takes for an ability to land damage, So I don't really understand the rush to make everything slow and even longer than the global cooldown on abilities. No thanks, nothing needs fixing.

@Recremen
I get where you're coming from but a global cooldown? It makes the game rather bland with no real thought put into the actions performed in accordance to what the opponents are doing. With the current system, all you're doing is spray and pray really.

@Sneaky-Snurr

If all you are doing is spray and pray, then we have found the problem. Animation canceling isn't a counter to good tactics and battlefield awareness, it is a force multiplier. Thus, if you have practiced positioning, reaction, awareness, CC use, AND animation canceling, you will have far more success than someone who simply uses a subset of those techniques. It is a system that increases the complexity of a fight, not one that decreases it.

Since you seem reasonable and not in the "OMG I got hit with 30 attacks in 12 milliseconds ZOS FIX" camp, I invite you to examine what the highest theoretical ability output is per second. Now i haven't tested the exact amount of time it takes to fire anything off, but we know that an ability cannot be used immediately after another ability. There is a global cooldown which prevents this. You CAN, however, fire off a light attack, or begin channeling a heavy attack, right after pressing an ability. You could also do the opposite, using a light or heavy attack and getting an ability off right after the damage for the light/heavy attack connects.

If you are going for straight damage, then you can, after those two hits, also get off a bash attack. It's very meager damage, but hey, it's something. Now, after all of that, you still can't get off another attack of those types until the cooldowns are finished! So however long this cooldown is remains the limiting factor. When all is said and done, you have gotten at best a light attack and and bash attack more damage in the same amount of time your opponent is getting their attack, assuming they are waiting for the full animation to play out. With the current long time to kill, that's not an overwhelming advantage, but it does give more skilled players a further edge, much like how someone circling around an opponent can avoid their attacks while the opponent remains helpless and flailing. Is it fair? Yes, either person can use it. Does it take skill? Yes, it takes a lot of practice to use the technique in live combat. Is it an instant-win, spammable technique? No, if you are relying on it exclusively then you will get owned.

Also, animation canceling isn't only for offense. You can also cancel into a roll dodge! This is great for when an opponent is doing more damage than you can beat in a short exchange and need to heal up. You cast your healing spell and immediately cancel the animation into a roll dodge, both healing and dodging attacks in a short amount of time! Heck you might even get a light attack off right before the heal if you're feeling frisky. I say "a short amount of time" instead of "instantly", by the way, because all of these button presses take a moment to reach the servers. It's never truly instant.

So to sum it up, if you are using animation canceling to just try and unload a bunch of damage all at once, you are going to be far less successful than someone integrating animation canceling into a more nuanced, tactical approach. Of course, if your opponent is just standing there and taking it.... by all means, continue!

Fat_Cat45

Please stop crying macros being a side effect of animation cancelling.

There is a global cool down of roughly 0.6 seconds on skills and abilities NO MATTER WHAT. You might "think" macros are everywhere but that's just because light/medium/heavy attacks and bashes are separate to the 0.6 second global cool down. Thus emerges the concept of weaving to maximize dps.

Let this be the last time you all read this. Learn to play. Go watch guide videos to animation canceling so you don't make yourselves look so biased.

EdmundTowers

Look at all the "get good" and "learn how to AC posts". Can't you guys read? The OP obviously knows how to do it and understands what it is. He just doesn't agree with it. You all consider it to be some sort of combo system similar to fighting arcade games. That would be cool if the game was designed to be that way, but it wasn't. Which is why:
A)It looks like crap. Doing it and seeing your opponent do it. Characters look like they're spazzing out.
B)Powerful abilities were given wind up times to counterbalance their numbers. But AC completely negates that counterbalance creating OP abilities that people are abusing. Example: Wrecking Blow. Compared to the other 2 hander sword skills, it deals twice as much damage but comes with this large wind up time. Sounds balanced. But wait, if you land it once, then you can animation cancel it by spamming it and no longer get a wind up time. In fact, it's as fast as regular jab attacks. Yeah that's how to "get good" right?

As for your suggestion OP, I don't know. At the moment it's hard to tell when a skill has fully completed it's animation. They would have to add better visual/oral clues to everything so that us players know when our ability is done, and we can do something else. If they don't, it's gonna feel terrible. I'm not a game developer, but it would seem much easier to just remove AC completely and force players commit to their abilities.

technohic

Just make resource management a thing again. If its enough of a thing, you can animation cancel, but you may not want to fire all those abilities off so quick. More resource management=Less Spam=less lag and me not giving a crap about animation cancelling any more.

Jhunn

The game has already been dumped down too much. We all know CPs aren't going anywhere, so everyone will have enough ressources to just smash WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB with no AC around. Sounds boring as f*ck, doesn't it?

Sneaky-Snurr

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Please stop crying macros being a side effect of animation cancelling.

There is a global cool down of roughly 0.6 seconds on skills and abilities NO MATTER WHAT. You might "think" macros are everywhere but that's just because light/medium/heavy attacks and bashes are separate to the 0.6 second global cool down. Thus emerges the concept of weaving to maximize dps.

Let this be the last time you all read this. Learn to play. Go watch guide videos to animation canceling so you don't make yourselves look so biased.

@Fat_Cat45
Please read my posts dear friend. I know how to use AC very well as I've had my share in practicing it when it was first discovered.

And please don't use 'crying macros' or anything, you clearly have no clue on how it works (if you actually do, you wouldn't be saying what you've said). Also, each period of 0.6 seconds is an extremely fast interval if you actually did some trial and error. Do yourself a favour and get a stopwatch from either your mobile phone or an actual stopwatch and time your laps every 0.6 seconds.
Now imagine that the pace is applied into the game where not everyone has consistent 50-150ms of latency, coupled that with the fact that a lot of combat animations can be hidden from sight but damage can still be dealt nonetheless (little to no time to react) and (as a separate but relevant case) macros timed perfectly in intervals of 0.6 seconds. Pretty horrendous outcome isn't it? But I'm not primarily talking about macros now am I so I'll leave it to you to wonder on my behalf.

Jhunn wrote: »

The game has already been dumped down too much. We all know CPs aren't going anywhere, so everyone will have enough ressources to just smash WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB with no AC around. Sounds boring as f*ck, doesn't it?

@Jhunn
I'll just leave my own quote here. Please read my other posts.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote:

I'm not asking for a complete removal of AC actually. I'm only presenting a potential tweak that could save us from a lot of imbalances and nerfs. Plus, what you're describing about WB is already happening in-game. Even more so with the current buggy AC as damage is applied even before the animation completes its cycle.
All I'm saying is that the damage shall only be applied onto the victim after the animation cycle ends, so you can still AC but damage won't be applied. That's a really effective game mechanic unlike now which is just spamming a whole bunch of different buttons altogether to achieve quick successions in attacks.
Which is also why I've suggested that cancelled animations should consume their respective resource pools to avoid spamming.

Recremen wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

They didn't design the animations around the actual time it takes for an ability to land damage, So I don't really understand the rush to make everything slow and even longer than the global cooldown on abilities. No thanks, nothing needs fixing.

@Recremen
I get where you're coming from but a global cooldown? It makes the game rather bland with no real thought put into the actions performed in accordance to what the opponents are doing. With the current system, all you're doing is spray and pray really.

@Sneaky-Snurr

If all you are doing is spray and pray, then we have found the problem. Animation canceling isn't a counter to good tactics and battlefield awareness, it is a force multiplier. Thus, if you have practiced positioning, reaction, awareness, CC use, AND animation canceling, you will have far more success than someone who simply uses a subset of those techniques. It is a system that increases the complexity of a fight, not one that decreases it.

Since you seem reasonable and not in the "OMG I got hit with 30 attacks in 12 milliseconds ZOS FIX" camp, I invite you to examine what the highest theoretical ability output is per second. Now i haven't tested the exact amount of time it takes to fire anything off, but we know that an ability cannot be used immediately after another ability. There is a global cooldown which prevents this. You CAN, however, fire off a light attack, or begin channeling a heavy attack, right after pressing an ability. You could also do the opposite, using a light or heavy attack and getting an ability off right after the damage for the light/heavy attack connects.

If you are going for straight damage, then you can, after those two hits, also get off a bash attack. It's very meager damage, but hey, it's something. Now, after all of that, you still can't get off another attack of those types until the cooldowns are finished! So however long this cooldown is remains the limiting factor. When all is said and done, you have gotten at best a light attack and and bash attack more damage in the same amount of time your opponent is getting their attack, assuming they are waiting for the full animation to play out. With the current long time to kill, that's not an overwhelming advantage, but it does give more skilled players a further edge, much like how someone circling around an opponent can avoid their attacks while the opponent remains helpless and flailing. Is it fair? Yes, either person can use it. Does it take skill? Yes, it takes a lot of practice to use the technique in live combat. Is it an instant-win, spammable technique? No, if you are relying on it exclusively then you will get owned.

Also, animation canceling isn't only for offense. You can also cancel into a roll dodge! This is great for when an opponent is doing more damage than you can beat in a short exchange and need to heal up. You cast your healing spell and immediately cancel the animation into a roll dodge, both healing and dodging attacks in a short amount of time! Heck you might even get a light attack off right before the heal if you're feeling frisky. I say "a short amount of time" instead of "instantly", by the way, because all of these button presses take a moment to reach the servers. It's never truly instant.

So to sum it up, if you are using animation canceling to just try and unload a bunch of damage all at once, you are going to be far less successful than someone integrating animation canceling into a more nuanced, tactical approach. Of course, if your opponent is just standing there and taking it.... by all means, continue!

@Recremen
That was really insightful. Thank you for writing those down but I already know how to play around with AC, I do hope others willing to learn AC will find your input to be really helpful though. *thumbs up*

EdmundTowers wrote: »

Look at all the "get good" and "learn how to AC posts". Can't you guys read? The OP obviously knows how to do it and understands what it is. He just doesn't agree with it. You all consider it to be some sort of combo system similar to fighting arcade games. That would be cool if the game was designed to be that way, but it wasn't. Which is why:
A)It looks like crap. Doing it and seeing your opponent do it. Characters look like they're spazzing out.
B)Powerful abilities were given wind up times to counterbalance their numbers. But AC completely negates that counterbalance creating OP abilities that people are abusing. Example: Wrecking Blow. Compared to the other 2 hander sword skills, it deals twice as much damage but comes with this large wind up time. Sounds balanced. But wait, if you land it once, then you can animation cancel it by spamming it and no longer get a wind up time. In fact, it's as fast as regular jab attacks. Yeah that's how to "get good" right?

As for your suggestion OP, I don't know. At the moment it's hard to tell when a skill has fully completed it's animation. They would have to add better visual/oral clues to everything so that us players know when our ability is done, and we can do something else. If they don't, it's gonna feel terrible. I'm not a game developer, but it would seem much easier to just remove AC completely and force players commit to their abilities.

@EdmundTowers
Right on point. Currently, I think @ZOS have combat visuals improvements in the works so that's one step ahead for them.

Recremen

EdmundTowers wrote: »

Look at all the "get good" and "learn how to AC posts". Can't you guys read? The OP obviously knows how to do it and understands what it is. He just doesn't agree with it. You all consider it to be some sort of combo system similar to fighting arcade games. That would be cool if the game was designed to be that way, but it wasn't. Which is why:
A)It looks like crap. Doing it and seeing your opponent do it. Characters look like they're spazzing out.
B)Powerful abilities were given wind up times to counterbalance their numbers. But AC completely negates that counterbalance creating OP abilities that people are abusing. Example: Wrecking Blow. Compared to the other 2 hander sword skills, it deals twice as much damage but comes with this large wind up time. Sounds balanced. But wait, if you land it once, then you can animation cancel it by spamming it and no longer get a wind up time. In fact, it's as fast as regular jab attacks. Yeah that's how to "get good" right?

As for your suggestion OP, I don't know. At the moment it's hard to tell when a skill has fully completed it's animation. They would have to add better visual/oral clues to everything so that us players know when our ability is done, and we can do something else. If they don't, it's gonna feel terrible. I'm not a game developer, but it would seem much easier to just remove AC completely and force players commit to their abilities.

@EdmundTowers

This is the kind of objectively false thing that always pops up when animation cancelling is talked about. Spamming Wrecking Blow doesn't make it instant-cast, it doesn't decrease the windup time at all, it just cuts off the part of the animatio nthat keeps playing after the ability has already hit.

Now if you want to gripe about how the animations aren't providing enough of a clue about incoming attacks/when they hit, etc., that's fine, and that seems to be the driving force behind the animation cleanup effort, but saying things that aren't true isn't going to help anyone.

Inarre

Even with ac removed people would not simply spam. You still need to weave for ulti regen.

qrichou

Whatever the call it , if i get killed within 1 sec by 5 diiff attacks wich normaly take 1 or 2 ec to do something is very wrong , weird thing is that i resive such , mostly from (pc transfers) experianced players how started already with 800 to 3000 or even more cp head start , i try being patiend , i realy do but i am so sick of this cheat , glitch exploit or whatever it is , it is certianly no skill , it is known ,discussed , praised even but still not fixed . So im gonna use the magic word : PLEASE ZOS FIX THIS

qrichou

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Please stop crying macros being a side effect of animation cancelling.

There is a global cool down of roughly 0.6 seconds on skills and abilities NO MATTER WHAT. You might "think" macros are everywhere but that's just because light/medium/heavy attacks and bashes are separate to the 0.6 second global cool down. Thus emerges the concept of weaving to maximize dps.

Let this be the last time you all read this. Learn to play. Go watch guide videos to animation canceling so you don't make yourselves look so biased.

learning a game mechanic to overrule the other game mechanics uhm how about pre-recording your moves for ultimate output and minimum input on a stick loop via a pc back to console choose a button , a voila .doesn,t sound like a skill anymore does it ?

Bam_Bam

AC - tis simply a skill to be learned. The fact that it is a skill means that not everyone can do it or do it consistently - but the mechanic is stilll there and the opportunity to develop suficient skill to use that mechanic is always available to everyone. It's not an iinstant reward as it takes practice. People who complain should instead try to seize the challenge and perfect the technique and enjoy the rewards. I assume that ZoS see it in the same way and that's why they won't remove it.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

dday3six wrote: »

Furthermore this would actually make things worst. Did you know there can be a time discrepancy of what two players see on screen? Nothing in the game actually happens in real time. One Player A's screen a skill could have fully gone off, while it didn't even finish on Player B's So under your suggestion the server will need to interpret which of those veiwing of events is going to be real time, thus putting a lot more strain on the server.

Not quite. Whenever you do something in game such as activate an ability, your computer sends a message to the server and then the server sends a response back to you. Only once you get a response back from the server do you see the ability activate on your end. This delay is measured in your Latency and when your latency goes to ***, your own character response goes to *** too.

Since everything is executed on the server, the same response is sent to other people at the same time and the server will do it's best to sync up all the information it is passing. So the only time difference is the amount of time it takes the response to travel back to each client. That time delay difference between you and another person is unnoticeable unless there is a connection issue. For example: when Cyrodiil starts to lag, everyone lags because everything is done on the server. Your seeing the same exact thing as everyone else at the same time.

P.S Leave AC alone.

FriedEggSandwich

Wanna fix animation cancelling? Give all instant cast abilities instant animations. Problem solved.

Kublakan

AC isnt a skill, its a piece of crap. Its stupid and boring, looks like crappy video game. Its not hard to master, but it does make combat ridicule. And the op is right saying it does open up a big door for macro user to exploit. It looks like SWG crappy combat at its worse (15 years ago).