No Stamina build without Vigor. Thoughts?

Faulgor

I'm a bit upset right now.
I really like my stamina chars, even a Bowplar I got out of the closet for the Thieves Guild DLC.
But none of them have Vigor and it shows. Not only in PvP, but PvE as well.
I wouldn't be totally against leveling my alliance war skill lines, but first, the lag in PvP makes that frustrating as hell, and second, I still think it's bad design to make half of all builds reliant on a single skill.

Crit Surge makes stamina Sorcs probably my favourite stamina class, but it is still unreliable.
Repentance is great, but only after the battle is over.
Similar situation for NB's Mark / Killer's Blade. Although cloak gives them a strong advantage in PvP (if you don't get hit you don't need to heal, after all), I found NBs to be my least favourite stamina class in PvE.
Dragon Blood is fine for low level content, but I don't think anyone uses it in endgame PvE or PvP anymore.
Rally is somewhat useful, but is difficult to rely on as the sole heal.
Blood Craze is worse.

Magicka builds on the other hand seem to have a plethora of options. Templars have their heals, obviously. Sorcerers don't need to heal at all with their strong shields or can heal with Surge / Dark Magic passive / Clannfear. Nightblades have a ton of passive selfhealing while attacking. Dragonknights have it the worst, but thankfully there's a whole weapon tree dedicated to magicka-based heals for them to use, with great synergy due to Igneous Shield.
And all of that is totally fine. Heals should be magicka-based.

Which is why I don't think the addition of Vigor was a good idea in the first place.

It makes stamina builds too much like magicka builds, but does so insufficiently. As said, it's pretty hopeless to tackle high level content as a stamina build without Vigor. But in return, the original defensive options for stamina builds remain underdeveloped or were severly nerfed.
Dodging: Nerfed hard in IC update with increasing costs for each dodge roll. Do Templar heals have an increasing cost? Do Sorcerer shields?
Blocking: Nerfed hard in IC update by disabling stamina recovery while blocking. Can magicka builds not regenerate Magicka while healing or hiding behind shields?
Spell/Physical Resistances: Remains underdeveloped; Capped at 50%, facing large penetration values in PvP.

I'm not sure what to do about this, or if people even think it is an issue. Which is why I want to know what your thoughts are.

Personally, I'd rather not see more stamina-based heals added, but the original defensive options strengthened.

Xvorg

I said something similar some weeks ago. Vigor is the root of all.

A stamina build that can heal?

Maybe if they get rid of vigor and change the HoT skills to stam version, especially DK whip and burning embers and switch bitting jabs with puncturing strikes could help to make the stam builds viable but not op as it is right now.

Brrrofski

You have rally and that's it really.

I just got my stamplar to vet and Bern PvPing. Rally and breath of life is getting me by for now. Just.

Stam sorc with crits is OK. I could wait for vigor for that.

My stamblade, I used drinks and could regen some health have cloaking.

My stam Dk had vigor before IC so dragon blood was a decent heal then.

OdinForge

A HoT like Vigor should have been a NB skill, and they should have enhanced available class based heals for stamina use in other classes. Honor the dead isn't a bad stamplar heal however, with some tweaking.

Dexter411

Good HoT for stamina builds should be avaliable for everyone. I said it many times and I am going to repeat everytime on this subject. Why stamina builds are forced to do PvP to get the best HoT and the best AoE DoT in game for stamina builds? Try to beat Veteran Mealstrom Arena without Vigor.
"Play as You want"... yeah but if you want to beat only actually challenging solo PvE content You need to grind AP.(not to mention that there are only 2 builds that can do that, one stamina and one magicka, with changing 1 or 2 abilites)

eliisra

OdinForge wrote: »

A HoT like Vigor should have been a NB skill, and they should have enhanced available class based heals for stamina use in other classes. Honor the dead isn't a bad stamplar heal however, with some tweaking.

I think you mean loads of tweaking. Honor of the Dead still scales of magicka + spell power + spell crit, it's like a 2k heal on a stamplar in PvP, that costs almost half their magicka pool. You get more healing from a cheap single Vigor tick that crit's and it will, because scales of the right attributes.

Some stamplars use it as magicka dump, but not because it's good. They only have that and Purifying Ritual worth slotting.

Heals and shields scaling of wrong attributes, including those of health, are more or less useless in PvP after -50% Battle Spirit. Why DK's cant heal for crap with GDB. Why slotting Harness Magicka on a stamina build, doesn't help you in any way.

Only heals that actually "heals" a stamina player consistently is Surge, Vigor and Rally. I also agree with this topic. It's silly you need to grind PvP ranks just to complete something like vMA as a stamina player.

Rune_Relic

Do you need magicka to call for a blessing from the divines ?
Nope.
You need magicka to cast magic spells.
So I don't think its impossible for stamina based heals even of the magical variety when using a 3rd party to do the magic part for you.
Whether that's a divine healing you, yourself or another magicka/stamina player is neither here nor there really.

Besides, why does healing have to be attached to magicka or stamina when healing is 100% about the health attribute ?
It makes separating healers from magicka DPS almost impossible.

And there does need to be complete parity between stamina and magicka version of all class skills IMHO for DPS balance sake.
Just as there should be physical and magical weapons trees that are enhanced by said skills.

If you are magicka/stamina DPS your heals and static mitigation should be crap.
Which means heals and static mitigation cant scale off magicka/stamina
And then we get a healer with massive mitigation problem instead.

So....how do you get 4+ attributes out of 3 attributes ?
Parity gives you access to 7.
So if...
magicka DPS scales off Magicka
Stamina DPS scales off stamina
Health Tank scales off health
...what should healer scale off ? NOT health/magicka/stamina ?

FENGRUSH

All resources are out of control - would like to see a return to more class based stam healing, but its pretty much everything everywhere.

Alucardo

Faulgor wrote: »

Which is why I don't think the addition of Vigor was a good idea in the first place.

I don't like things I can't get either.

Stigant

C'mon guys ... we all have gotten trough the content way back when the solo zones and solo PvE was actually a challenge and there was no Vigor in the game yet ... I've been playing Stamplar since the day one of early access and I've managed and it was even a fun ... stop qq-ing for Vigor, you don't need it, use repentance mid fight when you have few mobs down ... lay down a purifying ritual, use Blazing shield or Brawler for shielding, Bloodcraze for HoT, Bombard and Magnum shot/binding javelin for kiting .. so many options just pick a good combo of weapons and abilities that suit you ... L2P your character ... most of those options are in reach during first few lvls ...

Gahmerdohn

Faulgor wrote: »

It makes stamina builds too much like magicka builds, but does so insufficiently. As said, it's pretty hopeless to tackle high level content as a stamina build without Vigor. But in return, the original defensive options for stamina builds remain underdeveloped or were severly nerfed.
Dodging: Nerfed hard in IC update with increasing costs for each dodge roll. Do Templar heals have an increasing cost? Do Sorcerer shields?
Blocking: Nerfed hard in IC update by disabling stamina recovery while blocking. Can magicka builds not regenerate Magicka while healing or hiding behind shields?
Personally, I'd rather not see more stamina-based heals added, but the original defensive options strengthened.

I'm totally with you on this . Dodging, blocking , running ... try to avoid/block incoming damage should be the defensive options for non-magicka type of characters.
I'm not playing those type of characters to have the same gameplay as magicka builds (having less options to avoid damage healing me with a "stamina based spell".

Don't get me wrong , I'm not againts the idea of adding self healing options for stamina based characters but I don't think that nerfing their "natural options" is the way to go .

Waffennacht

What's the issue?

The fact it exists? The fact it's PvP? Stamina shouldn't have it? You want it or not?

Your post is everywhere.

It's a good move, that's why all stam builds run it, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't my magicka sorc run hardened ward?

Hey it's A LOT less than magicka det

Edit: and why would the game change because a very small amount of people feel stam shouldn't have a self heal?

Farorin

I really enjoy stamina builds, and I agree, it is a bit sucky that vigor is the cornerstone skill of stamina builds now, it wasn't always like that.

NecrosIX

Maybe if Zenimax made hybrids more viable, people wouldn't be so reliant on vigor.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Too late to read the comments from magicka users crying about stamina again?

Vangy

Imo if ur into pvp, then yes stamina builds absolutely need vigor. Just pop this baby and play merry go round a tree or kite around terrain and spank that magicka build who made the mistake of thinking they can get within 5 feet of u.

If you're talking about group pve, there's really no need for vigor. It's a waste of a slot that could be better served with another buff or dps skill.

If you're working on some god like solo build that's meant to take on vet pledges solo or clear vMSA then yea, vigor or bust.

So it all depends on what your after really. But yes, vigor is needed on most stamina builds for the most part.

Stannum

Sorcs has great survival. You need to keep lightning form, surge and bound aegis on and if situation comes critical (really if you have good group that situations never happen) you have streak for CC and escape. Stam sorcs are the best survival DPS.(That's all about PvE. If you PvP you have vigor)