Dungeon scaling for low levels.....help me..

troner2

SOOOOOOOOO After a few months break i return to play ESO, and have a look at Orsinium! still love the game and all, but with the new dungeon scaling thing, i havnt been able to complete ONE Dungeon in the group finder..things that use to take 20 mins are now taking an hour to then finally wipe on the last boss! i mean, i know i can find a group in zone, but its a bit of a pain .. i have noticed that while im scaling up to V16 in dungeons, im still wearing crappy green quest gear... so surely its scaling me to a ***, undergeared v16?? just wondered if any one else is having the issue, because to be honest would love to be able to do some dungeons before VR Levels...

thanks!

MrDerrikk

I just made myself some blue Seducer for when I was doing dungeons with my healer, that should be relatively achievable in any case. As long as it's at least blue set gear at your level, you should be able to have the right stats.

UrQuan

Yes, the scaling now takes into account the gear that you're using, the proportion of your attribute points in each attribute, what type of food you're using etc. So if you're trying them in crappy green quest gear, you're going to be scaled up as if you were an undergeared VR16. On my low levels on my second account I've had good success using the new group finder and scaling up to VR16 when I'm wearing blue crafted sets (even ones that are several levels below my level), so switching to crafted gear might be a good solution for you.

andreasv

As @UrQuan said, you should definitely attempt dungeons with crafted gear. Below Vet levels, however, I've never saw the need to improve above green level apart from some weapons in later levels maybe.

troner2

awesome guys thanks never got past v1 so still practically a noob ^^and any tips on what sets are worth using for a healer templer class ^^

thanks again!

MrDerrikk

troner2 wrote: »

awesome guys thanks never got past v1 so still practically a noob ^^and any tips on what sets are worth using for a healer templer class ^^

thanks again!

Seducer for if you need regen, Magnus for a good overall boost and Eye of Mara if you use lots of Resto staff abilities (and know someone with 8 traits).

Edit: Oh! And of course the king of sets, Kagrunacs Hope (also 8-traits)

andreasv

I usually use this site when looking for some special crafting stations and their set bonuses, http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Set+Bonus+Crafting+Locations

I prefer Magnus for my healer, but not sure whether it's the best set for this class.

UrQuan

Personally for a healer I'd go with 5-piece Seducer, and 3-piece Magnus (assuming you're using a resto staff - if you're using dual wield swords for the extra spell damage then go with 4-piece Magnus). The Seducer set is universally useful for magicka classes as it gives you great sustain, and it only requires you to know 3 traits (I think) to craft. Magnus requires more traits (4 I think?) and is also universally useful for magicka-users, but IMO its 5-piece bonus isn't as good as the Seducer 5-piece bonus, so that's why I would use it as a secondary set.

Incidentally, I have successfully done some scaled-up dungeons with a level 20 Templar healer using those 2 sets in those proportions.

troner2

you guys have been so helpfull! cheers a lot!
gunna go try this now ^^

UrQuan

troner2 wrote: »

you guys have been so helpfull! cheers a lot!
gunna go try this now ^^

I'd also suggest using blue food that buffs your health & magicka if you can - the battle leveling will also take that into account. If you're using the best 2-stat food available for your level (ie. if you're level 20-24 use level 20 food, if you're level 25-29 use level 25 food, etc) then the battle leveling will treat it pretty much as if you were a VR16 using VR15 blue food.

Oh, and if anyone else you group with seems to be having similar struggles, please pass on the advice from this thread. The more low levels who know this type of thing, the better experiences people will have with the group finder!

HebrewHatchet

You could try this setup, I use it on my low vet level templar (of course make it around your level and at least blue):

I do something like this:

Chest: Julianos
Head: Julianos
Shoulders: Julianos
Hands: Kagrenac's Hope
Waist: Kagrenac's Hope
Legs: Kagrenac's Hope
Feet: Kagrenac's Hope

Restoration staff: Kagrenac's Hope

Sword: Julianos
Sword: Julianos

I like this setup because it gives two different 5 piece bonuses depending on which weapon you have on, and none of the bonuses that you swap are max health, magicka, or stamina (so you never lose resources when switching weapons).

When you're on your resto bar, you sacrifice a little bit of spell damage for faster revives, and when you're on your dual sword bar, you get lots of spell damage.

Unfortunately, there is no room for a monster set, so no Kena, but I think the spell damage you get from these sets makes up for it.

Volkodav

I'vee only used gear I havee improved,not crafted.I have no problem.There are a few places where I tend to wait for someone else to come along and we both go in and finish the thing together.Works fine.I have never needed any special gear,and I've gone in with my V3 and with my lower level chars as well.I've even gone in with just a couple of purples,and the rest blues for gear.

runagate

Volkodav I saw you talking about this in guild chat. I'd be happy to make you some set gear.

EQBallzz

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

wolfydog

Its a pretty poor system IMO. I am experienced player since beta and when I play alts I have trouble with dungeons to if I use the group finder. As I level 1-50 I don't bother decking out my toon in all blues, at most might just be blue weapons. The rest of my armor is green, and even set armors like seducer and part of another if I'm running light. These scaled up V16 dungeons while doable with an experienced group are such a grind compared to doing the dungeon at lower levels. Its definatly kind of unfair to newer players who probably don't know. It really should be be scaled to level 50 or just set level limits for each zone. Why cant higher level players be downscaled like Guild Wars 2? That was also a great system and let people of all levels group if they wanted.

And also, you just have no passives at lower levels and not many morphs either.

myrrrorb14_ESO

It's a clever system and almost works.

Got some purple gear at level 10 (because I can) and went to IC sewers. Stats scaled nicely, regen seemed okay, but it was still not quite right. Having the stats does not make you even close to vet15. Without the passives and skills, I was very much underpowered there and I assume in scaled dungeons as well.

Going to try dungeons later this week when I have time. But I assume it's going to be painful.

Magdalina

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

It's pretty simple really - a group of lvl 20 doing a dungeon at lvl 20 sounds nice, easy and logical, however grouping tool can grab players of all levels(which should somewhat reduce the wait time and is overall a good idea imo) so you could easily end up with lvl 20, lvl 10, vet 1 and vet 16 in the same group...then what? Scale dungeon to vet 16? Lawl. Scale it to level 10? No one but lvl 10 is going to get xp nor loot, and lvl 10 probably won't get it either because vet 16 will 1shot everything including bosses and lvl 10 won't get credit for that. Heck this is a drastic example, but even with one lvl 30 and, say, three lvl 20s there's going to be a huge issue.

It's an easy way to make sure different levels can group with each other and still get xp and loot. Alternatively you can just group with friends/zchat of approx your level and scale dungeon to groupleader.

AlnilamE

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

Magdalina provided a good explanation, but I want to point out that a group formed manually will still scale to group leader.

The thing with getting a group via the group finder is that technically nobody is the "leader" of that group, so the finder wouldn't know what to scale it to. I think it works fairly well as it is. One just needs to be prepared.

EQBallzz

Magdalina wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

It's pretty simple really - a group of lvl 20 doing a dungeon at lvl 20 sounds nice, easy and logical, however grouping tool can grab players of all levels(which should somewhat reduce the wait time and is overall a good idea imo) so you could easily end up with lvl 20, lvl 10, vet 1 and vet 16 in the same group...then what? Scale dungeon to vet 16? Lawl. Scale it to level 10? No one but lvl 10 is going to get xp nor loot, and lvl 10 probably won't get it either because vet 16 will 1shot everything including bosses and lvl 10 won't get credit for that. Heck this is a drastic example, but even with one lvl 30 and, say, three lvl 20s there's going to be a huge issue.
It's an easy way to make sure different levels can group with each other and still get xp and loot. Alternatively you can just group with friends/zchat of approx your level and scale dungeon to groupleader.

I guess that sort of makes sense but really the dungeon finder shouldn't be grouping players of such varied levels. Obviously, a v16 doesn't want to be downscaled to 20 but that works both ways. It should always just group players that are within that 5 level range. Less players but when they include all alliances into the pool it should be fine.

EQBallzz

AlnilamE wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

Magdalina provided a good explanation, but I want to point out that a group formed manually will still scale to group leader.

The thing with getting a group via the group finder is that technically nobody is the "leader" of that group, so the finder wouldn't know what to scale it to. I think it works fairly well as it is. One just needs to be prepared.

This really doesn't affect me per se because my characters are all vet level already but how do you propose that a new player that has no clue about any of this be prepared for v16 scaling when they have bad gear and very few skills and very little experience?

Sorry but this seems fairly unreasonable for new players and I would think wouldn't leave a great first impression not to mention that person would likely be a hindrance to the group. The typical paradigm is for the first few dungeons to prepare the player for harder content later so they get better..not penalize them and make them not want to queue up in the first place.

Merkabeh

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a clever system and almost works.

Got some purple gear at level 10 (because I can) and went to IC sewers. Stats scaled nicely, regen seemed okay, but it was still not quite right. Having the stats does not make you even close to vet15. Without the passives and skills, I was very much underpowered there and I assume in scaled dungeons as well.

Going to try dungeons later this week when I have time. But I assume it's going to be painful.

The difference is what the content was built for.
IC was designed for end game; meaning scaled up low level are missing skill points, etc. Just like Cyrodiil, while stats are similar, skill point disparity still exists.

On the other hand, spindleclutch for example, was designed for low level, low skill points; this does not change with battle leveling. Mechanics do not change. The ratios of player health, mitigation, dps and, mob health and dps remain relatively the same; only the actual stat values change.

This is because even scaled up to VR16, the dungeon was designed to be run with limited skill points.

In my experience, battle leveling is not the issue with group finder; getting randoms who don't know what they are doing is. And that will be an issue regardless of what the dungeon/players are sync'd to.

Wubsta

Being a new player I can attest to how difficult this system makes the early dungeons. Until I read this thread I didn't realize how the system worked and why I have been getting stomped.

Now, at least I can try to craft myself some blue sets, but this is easier said than done as a new player.

nbksaske

Wubsta wrote: »

Being a new player I can attest to how difficult this system makes the early dungeons. Until I read this thread I didn't realize how the system worked and why I have been getting stomped.

Now, at least I can try to craft myself some blue sets, but this is easier said than done as a new player.

we all start of as the same

Magdalina

EQBallzz wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

It's pretty simple really - a group of lvl 20 doing a dungeon at lvl 20 sounds nice, easy and logical, however grouping tool can grab players of all levels(which should somewhat reduce the wait time and is overall a good idea imo) so you could easily end up with lvl 20, lvl 10, vet 1 and vet 16 in the same group...then what? Scale dungeon to vet 16? Lawl. Scale it to level 10? No one but lvl 10 is going to get xp nor loot, and lvl 10 probably won't get it either because vet 16 will 1shot everything including bosses and lvl 10 won't get credit for that. Heck this is a drastic example, but even with one lvl 30 and, say, three lvl 20s there's going to be a huge issue.
It's an easy way to make sure different levels can group with each other and still get xp and loot. Alternatively you can just group with friends/zchat of approx your level and scale dungeon to groupleader.

I guess that sort of makes sense but really the dungeon finder shouldn't be grouping players of such varied levels. Obviously, a v16 doesn't want to be downscaled to 20 but that works both ways. It should always just group players that are within that 5 level range. Less players but when they include all alliances into the pool it should be fine.

I guess that's the ultimate question - would you rather wait an extra 10/20/60 mins and end up grouping with your level people or get the group here and now(well...hopefully. Grouping tool definitely can use some work but that's the idea) but with random levels and scaling?
Perhaps an easy solution would be a simple "scaling on/off" toggle. It'd have to be really visible and when moused over explain what exactly it does to new players - longer wait but same level range or battle leveling of everyone to v16.

I keep hearing mixed reports about this though. I'm still not entirely sure battle leveling actually makes those dungeons harder than they would otherwise be for new people. Yes, lack of skillpoints, passive, experience etc makes them harder, but it also makes them hard at level 10 for a level 10, does it not? I wish I could check but even though I could try on a level 10 with no CP I still won't be exactly a new inexperienced player so my experience will probably differ from that of one.

EQBallzz

Magdalina wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge of why this was changed? It really makes no logical sense that a group of lvl 20 noobs should be scaled up to a v16 dungeon when trying to do the first dungeon in the game...before they have access to decent gear or even many skills. I mean what was wrong with it before? Scaling to the group leader seems like the perfect solution so if it wasn't broken why did they "fix" it?

It's pretty simple really - a group of lvl 20 doing a dungeon at lvl 20 sounds nice, easy and logical, however grouping tool can grab players of all levels(which should somewhat reduce the wait time and is overall a good idea imo) so you could easily end up with lvl 20, lvl 10, vet 1 and vet 16 in the same group...then what? Scale dungeon to vet 16? Lawl. Scale it to level 10? No one but lvl 10 is going to get xp nor loot, and lvl 10 probably won't get it either because vet 16 will 1shot everything including bosses and lvl 10 won't get credit for that. Heck this is a drastic example, but even with one lvl 30 and, say, three lvl 20s there's going to be a huge issue.
It's an easy way to make sure different levels can group with each other and still get xp and loot. Alternatively you can just group with friends/zchat of approx your level and scale dungeon to groupleader.

I guess that sort of makes sense but really the dungeon finder shouldn't be grouping players of such varied levels. Obviously, a v16 doesn't want to be downscaled to 20 but that works both ways. It should always just group players that are within that 5 level range. Less players but when they include all alliances into the pool it should be fine.

I guess that's the ultimate question - would you rather an extra 10/20/60 mins and end up grouping with your level people or get the group here and now(well...hopefully. Grouping tool definitely can use some work but that's the idea) but with random levels and scaling?
Perhaps an easy solution would be a simple "scaling on/off" toggle. It'd have to be really visible and when moused over explain what exactly it does to new players - longer wait but same level range or battle leveling of everyone to v16.

I keep hearing mixed reports about this though. I'm still not entirely sure battle leveling actually makes those dungeons harder than they would otherwise be for new people. Yes, lack of skillpoints, passive, experience etc makes them harder, but it also makes them hard at level 10 for a level 10, does it not? I wish I could check but even though I could try on a level 10 with no CP I still won't be exactly a new inexperienced player so my experience will probably differ from that of one.

Those are good points. Not really sure what the answer is. Maybe they could do something similar to what they do now but separate the 1-50 people from vet so that if you are below 50 it scales up to 50 instead of v16. If you are above 50 it scales you to v16. Maybe that would make more sense and this wouldn't limit the pool of players by as much.

This does lead to the question of what happens when vet levels go away. I still don't see how that is going to work. In the present form the dungeons have a wide range of difficulty (all the different levels + vet levels + hard mode). When vet levels go away there will be far fewer difficulty levels (lvl 50 or hard mode).

How will they keep the dungeons challenging to those with lots of CP while not making them impossible for those without? I'm guessing veteran dungeons are either going to be so easy that experienced players will decimate it or so hard that most will be locked out of that content for a long time.

UrQuan

EQBallzz wrote: »

Those are good points. Not really sure what the answer is. Maybe they could do something similar to what they do now but separate the 1-50 people from vet so that if you are below 50 it scales up to 50 instead of v16. If you are above 50 it scales you to v16. Maybe that would make more sense and this wouldn't limit the pool of players by as much.

To me something like this is what would make the most sense. The theory behind doing the group finder scaling is sound (ie. putting everyone into one pool instead of having a ton of small pools, like how it used to work), and it actually does work pretty well for higher level characters.

Where it doesn't work as well is with lower level characters, so the thing that would seem to me to make the most sense would be a split so that all characters below a certain level get scaled to that level, and all characters above that level get scaled to max level. That way you still have the benefit of reducing the number of pools of players searching for a group (not down to a single pool, but 2 pools is still a vast improvement over the way it used to work), and you can better compensate for the lower level characters who, even scaled up, can't really compete with an actual VR16 character.

I don't know if the best breaking point between the pools is level 50, though. Purely based on the fact that vet ranks are going away, and the fact that a character who hits level 50 (VR1) will definitely have Champion Points (well, not necessarily right when they hit level 50, but almost immediately), I'd think that you'd want the lower-level characters scaling to something below level 50.

EQBallzz

UrQuan wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Those are good points. Not really sure what the answer is. Maybe they could do something similar to what they do now but separate the 1-50 people from vet so that if you are below 50 it scales up to 50 instead of v16. If you are above 50 it scales you to v16. Maybe that would make more sense and this wouldn't limit the pool of players by as much.

To me something like this is what would make the most sense. The theory behind doing the group finder scaling is sound (ie. putting everyone into one pool instead of having a ton of small pools, like how it used to work), and it actually does work pretty well for higher level characters.

Where it doesn't work as well is with lower level characters, so the thing that would seem to me to make the most sense would be a split so that all characters below a certain level get scaled to that level, and all characters above that level get scaled to max level. That way you still have the benefit of reducing the number of pools of players searching for a group (not down to a single pool, but 2 pools is still a vast improvement over the way it used to work), and you can better compensate for the lower level characters who, even scaled up, can't really compete with an actual VR16 character.

I don't know if the best breaking point between the pools is level 50, though. Purely based on the fact that vet ranks are going away, and the fact that a character who hits level 50 (VR1) will definitely have Champion Points (well, not necessarily right when they hit level 50, but almost immediately), I'd think that you'd want the lower-level characters scaling to something below level 50.

Considering players don't earn CP leveling 1-49 and earned CP would be the one of the largest factors creating a gap among players I would think 50 would work pretty well as a cutoff. It would also transition once vet levels go away. Everyone that is max level is in one group and 1-49 is another group.