Undaunted Tokens of Valour: A Dungeon Currency Idea

NobleX35

**Warning: Long Post**

One of the biggest issues with a RNG system is the lack of an end in sight for the player. This problem diminishes the quality of entertainment in running dungeon content by making it extremely monotonous. One possible solution to this problem would be to add a dungeon currency system into the game that would not replace the RNG system, but instead would act as a supplement.

My idea on the way this system would work would be to reward the player with a certain amount of Undaunted Tokens of Valour for completing various tasks such as defeating a boss, challenges, and general completion of the dungeon. Certain bosses would grant more Tokens then other bosses and you could even obtain a bonus number of Tokens for completion. The number of Tokens the player would obtain would depend on a number of different factors such as Normal vs Veteran mode, level scale of the dungeon, and the specific dungeon itself. The player could then return to the Undaunted camp where a number of vendors would be waiting to trade items for the players Undaunted Tokens of Valour.

At this time I would like to go into further detail on the different aspects of this system. The numbers I am about to propose are just placed holders and subject to change, and are only meant to give a general idea of how the system works.

CURRENCY

The player would be awarded with Undaunted Tokens of Valour upon defeating a dungeon boss. Certain bosses would grant more and others less depending on difficulty and order (the last boss may grant more than the first boss). Current Undaunted pledge challenges can become a standard “challenge” mode that will grant additional Tokens upon completion. Current daily Undaunted pledges can be changed from awarding a “Gold” or “Silver” key, to simply awarding a fixed number of Undaunted Tokens of Valour that would be scaled via the player’s level.

The average Undaunted Token of Valour acquisition for completing the challenge and fully clearing a dungeon like Fungal Grotto, Spindleclutch, or Banished Cells on Veteran mode at VR16 would be about 1,000. However if the same group of VR16’s only completed those dungeons on Normal Mode, then they would only receive about 500 tokens. The acquisition rates would of course scale according to level and general difficulty of the dungeon. For instance if several level 15s were running one of those three dungeons listed above, their final Token count would be much smaller and likely average around 50 for full completion. If a group of VR16s were running Veteran Dragonstar Arena, their final acquisition for completing the dungeon may be over 3,000 Tokens due to it being a much more difficult and longer dungeon.

Undaunted pledge “challenges” could be turned into a standard challenge mode for completing the dungeon and award additional bonus tokens. This essentially means that any time you enter a dungeon, you will have the option to complete what are the current Undaunted pledge challenges. They will no longer be tied to the Undaunted pledge quest and instead will simply be a standard challenge every time a group enters a dungeon. Additional challenge quests can be added to dungeons that do not currently have an Undaunted pledge challenge associated with them.

Undaunted pledge quests can be changed to award a specific amount of Undaunted Tokens of Valour that would scale according to the players level. A VR16 completing the Veteran Undaunted pledge would be awarded with 500 tokens, while the Normal Undaunted pledge would only award 250 tokens. The Veteran and Normal pledges would still only be granted on a daily basis and can follow the current dungeon rotation. This change allows players to run any dungeon of their choosing on any day and still be rewarded, but can also provide some variety by allowing players to run a specific dungeon via the Undaunted pledge and receive an added bonus.

ITEM VENDORS

Multiple different item vendors would be added around the Undaunted camps that would trade items for the players Undaunted Tokens of Valour. Additional vendors can be added to the camps as needed, but here is a potential list of initial item vendors:

• Light Armor Vendor
• Medium Armor Vendor
• Heavy Armor Vendor
• Shield Vendor
• Jewelry Vendor
• Weapon Vendor
• Crafting Vendor
• Consumable Vendor
• Motif Vendor
• Outfit Vendor
• Housing Vendor (if housing is ever added to the game)

Gear vendors: would trade gear of all levels for the players Undaunted Tokens of Valour. All the popular armor sets could be added to the vendor thus allowing the players to simply purchase the piece of gear they desire instead of being tied to the luck of the RNG system. The more popular pieces of VR16 gear would need to be priced appropriately to ensure that hard work and dedication is still required as well as to maintain the value of the gear (particularly with BoE items).

Crafting vendor: would trade a variety of different crafting items for the players Undaunted Tokens of Valour. Such items could include Tempers, Resins, Tannins, Aspect runes, Alchemy Solvents, Rare Provisioning ingredients, Trait gems, and Style materials. Items would again be priced appropriately to reflect their rarity and value in the market. For instance a Honing Stone (green Temper) might cost 100 Tokens, however a Tempering Alloy (Gold Temper) might cost 3,000 Tokens. A crafting vendor gives the player another valuable option to spend their Tokens on something other than just gear and increases the reward for running dungeon content.

Consumable vendor: would trade a variety of different consumable items such as potions, food, and drinks (that would not be as strong as crafted items).

Motif vendor: would trade motifs and motif chapters, excluding the most recently added motif style to the game. The most recently added motif style would be excluded in order to maintain its rarity and value. The standard motifs like Breton, Nord, etc. would be cheap and sell for about 500 Tokens, while the rare motifs like Glass would cost considerably more with the standard chapters tradable for 15,000 Tokens and the more valued chapters tradable for 25,000 Tokens. As time passes, prices can be adjusted to account for new motifs entering the game and motif prices can also be adjusted based on rarity and value.

Outfit vendor: would trade all the non-store exclusive outfits, including disguises acquired for quests. Outfit prices would be very cheap, and simply provide the player with more options to spend their Tokens.

Miscellaneous vendors like the Crafting, Consumable, Motif, and Outfit vendors are required in order to maintain the value of the dungeon currency across the player base. More miscellaneous vendors giving more options to the player to spend their Tokens will always ensure the player is being rewarded for running content regardless of their preferred playstyle.

BENEFITS

This system will benefit both the player base and Zenimax for multiple reasons. It benefits the player base by increasing the incentive of running dungeon content, while simultaneously reducing the monotonous grind of the RNG system and increasing the life span of content. It could potentially benefit Zenimax by allowing them to introduce a scroll to the Crown Store that would grant a +50% increase for 2 hours on Undaunted Token of Valour acquisition. They could market the scroll similarly to the +additional experience scroll and sell it for 300 Crowns or five scrolls for 1000 Crowns. Zenimax could also grant a 10% increase on Undaunted Token of Valour acquisition to subscribers. This is by no means an original idea, but it is an idea that I feel would greatly benefit everyone who is associated with ESO.

whsprwind

ZOS please

eldermpsmithrwb17_ESO

2nd this post, totally agree

NBrookus

Personally, I'd rather have the players buy and sell to each other, with gold, instead of creating a 4th game currency. I like the idea of dungeon tokens instead of keys, but only for helms, shoulders, Undaunted set pieces and dungeon the dropped sets.

DanielMaxwell

a few questions for the OP ( @GothicPython )

How do prevent groups from farming the high token dungeons , or every dungeon multiple times in one day to gain enough tokens to buy there sets once a day ?

Since the game is supported by the cash shop would you be ok with ZOS placing lottery boxes for each gear type , or the actual items depending on what the vendors are selling , in the cash shop ? ( once it is placed on an in-game vendor they can "claim" it is now just a convenience item)

How many full dungeon runs of every token rewarding dungeon do think it would take to earn enough tokens to buy the lowest tier of items from each vendor for capped players (level and/or CP caps) ?

OGLezard

Sadly it's to good for us so they won't do it. We have been pushing this since week 1. So what we got was a new vendor who shows up twice a week and we get to spend millions of gold/AP per item. Then to top it off, its random on what the vendor has (not verified just my assumption on what determines the merchants supplies).

But this is my favorite post of 2016!!!!!!

Draxys

There is only one way that zos would add a token system for stuff like this, and that is if there is still some rng involved. It's the artificial extension of content life that is keeping their game populated right now.

If they added this idea, it would look something like: you buy a coffer with a certain piece of gear inside, but it's only guaranteed to be a certain armor piece from a certain set. Armor weight and trait would still be rng.

To be honest, I'd take that rng over the rng on so many levels like we have now, but they won't ever do it. The 5 layers of rng as opposed to 2 layers is what is making their game appear to be alive and well.

NobleX35

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

a few questions for the OP ( @GothicPython )

How do prevent groups from farming the high token dungeons , or every dungeon multiple times in one day to gain enough tokens to buy there sets once a day ?

You make the cost of the gear very high, thus preventing groups from being able to obtain the gear in a single day. Obviously the more hardcore and elite players will farm harder and longer than the average player, and will therefore obtain the gear much faster. The biggest benefit though behind this idea is the concept of consumable/miscellaneous vendors that will always provide items that the player wants (whether for personal use or for trade).

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Since the game is supported by the cash shop would you be ok with ZOS placing lottery boxes for each gear type , or the actual items depending on what the vendors are selling , in the cash shop ? ( once it is placed on an in-game vendor they can "claim" it is now just a convenience item)

Absolutely not!!! Gear should never be sold in the crown store, because that defeats the purpose of even playing this game. That is never a good route for a game to go and just promotes a pay-to-win system. With in-game vendors, the player still has to put in the work to obtain their goal.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

How many full dungeon runs of every token rewarding dungeon do think it would take to earn enough tokens to buy the lowest tier of items from each vendor for capped players (level and/or CP caps) ?

Their are a lot of factors that would play into the cost of gear. Obviously different pieces of gear would have different costs. If we followed my numbers in the original post, the lower tiers could cost between 10-20k Tokens (or between 10 and 20 full dungeon runs of the average dungeons). The slightly more valuable pieces could cost upwards of 30-50k tokens and the most rare and valuable pieces could cost between 75-100k tokens (or the equivalent of 75-100 dungeon runs of the average dungeon group). Though again my numbers are just to provide an idea of how the system would work and are not meant to be taken too seriously. The pricing of gear would obviously need to be determined by the developers and what they would determine is a fair price to pay.

OGLezard wrote: »

Sadly it's to good for us so they won't do it. We have been pushing this since week 1. So what we got was a new vendor who shows up twice a week and we get to spend millions of gold/AP per item. Then to top it off, its random on what the vendor has (not verified just my assumption on what determines the merchants supplies).

But this is my favorite post of 2016!!!!!!

True, but hopefully one day we will get our wish! Thanks for the support!!!

Draxys wrote: »

There is only one way that zos would add a token system for stuff like this, and that is if there is still some rng involved. It's the artificial extension of content life that is keeping their game populated right now.

The system I propose would actually greatly increase the life span of dungeon content and make it much more enjoyable through means of the miscellaneous vendors (crafting, consumable, motif, and outfit vendors). These additional vendors (and maybe others I have not listed) will always provide the player a reason to run dungeon content. They can always add new gear, new motif's, new crafting items, etc. thus always giving the player an incentive to keep running content.

Draxys wrote: »

If they added this idea, it would look something like: you buy a coffer with a certain piece of gear inside, but it's only guaranteed to be a certain armor piece from a certain set. Armor weight and trait would still be rng.

To be honest, I'd take that rng over the rng on so many levels like we have now, but they won't ever do it. The 5 layers of rng as opposed to 2 layers is what is making their game appear to be alive and well.

I hope they would not do that, but it would at least be better than what is current. Maybe if they did do something like this, they could add a scroll to the camp that the player could spend their tokens on to allow them to change the trait on a piece of gear.

Decado

This is an excellent idea, and I think would Make a lot of people happier to keep running the dungeon, I would go as far as to say they should scrap the AP vendor idea and go with something like this but also add on the option to buy everything with AP aswel as valor tokens.

Personally I think this would go a long way to making both communities happy and could be supported by both "sides" i truly hope ZoS looks into this idea seriously as I honestly believe this would
Prolong the dungeons life rather than decrease it.

I would feel much better about daily pledges on dungeons I don't want the head from (banished/ elden etc) if I knew it was working towards the head/shoulders I actually wanted rather than a complete waste, also if they added your full idea of motifs/ tempers it would keep people running then just for that alone.

Rhazmuz

This idea is so good and so straight forward that there is simply no way ZOS would ever do it

Sausage

Token system isnt so good as people think, when the game gets older, theres going to be hundred of different tokens, all it creates is one big mess. Rift had tokens, so I know. I think they should keep it simple, and introduce Vet-Points what are gained by doing all kind of vet-content. PVPers grind APs, and PVErs grind Vet-Points. For high-end PVE content, turn Leadeboards into Bragging Right thing, earn Leaderboard Points and get exlusive Mounts, Titles, Crafting Styles and Costumes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store.

Rhazmuz

Sausage wrote: »

Token system isnt so good as people think, when the game gets older, theres going to be hundred of different tokens, all it creates is one big mess. Rift had tokens, so I know. I think they should keep it simple, and introduce Vet-Points what are gained by doing all kind of vet-content. PVPers grind APs, and PVErs grind Vet-Points. For high-end PVE content, turn Leadeboards into Bragging Right thing, earn Leaderboard Points and get exlusive Mounts, Titles, Crafting Styles and Costumes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store.

Rather take several tokens than the rng mess we have atm

Sausage

Rhazmuz wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Token system isnt so good as people think, when the game gets older, theres going to be hundred of different tokens, all it creates is one big mess. Rift had tokens, so I know. I think they should keep it simple, and introduce Vet-Points what are gained by doing all kind of vet-content. PVPers grind APs, and PVErs grind Vet-Points. For high-end PVE content, turn Leadeboards into Bragging Right thing, earn Leaderboard Points and get exlusive Mounts, Titles, Crafting Styles and Costumes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store.

Rather take several tokens than the rng mess we have atm

RNG-mess is being fixed, they are adding alternative way to obtain the gears. I thikn RNG system needs some alternative system because of all the frustration what players gets, what we have witnessed here multiple times, if you start to lose it, just take the alternative path.

Decado

The problem is it doesn't appear they are fixing the RNG, just putting a way to avoid it, yet it appears that will be governed by RNG aswel,

I had high hopes for the token system they Added in with vWGT and vICP and be vaults but they have just proved to be another crap RNG, and I'm still not even sure it's actually random, I get to many well fitted essence thief to believe it's truly random.

I honestly think a vendor is going to be the only way this will work

Sausage

Well, I havent been even able to do vWGT or vICP yet, because group-finder sucks. I hoped I'd do them at Orsinium launch, but it took like 2 hour to find a group and it was very bad. But what I know is Tokens just tends to lead to more tokens and eventually players start to whine, they wanna merge this token with this etc, so simplier Vet-Points sounds better idea to me, also my idea works better with lower population.

Decado

Don't get me wrong sausage I would be more than happy for one single token system like your vet points, I just want there to be a token system I'm not dead set on any type

I've never used the group finder but I've heard reports that if it's not the daily it's impossible to group, I'm fortunate enough to have a decent amount of people on my friends list and in guilds that I can always find a group problem is a lot of my friends like me are burnt out running them,

We completed it pretty much immediately when it came out, we used to farm by going vWGT/vICP/vWGT/vICP pretty much everyday for I'm not sure how long and most of us gave up getting the sets, opened the vault so many times and almost every time it was the useless sets noone wanted and normally one I already had.

So wether it's vet points/ valor tokens/ any other type of token its get a big yea from me and then work through the details afterwards I just want ZoS to listen

infraction2008b16_ESO

Sausage wrote: »

Token system isnt so good as people think, when the game gets older, theres going to be hundred of different tokens, all it creates is one big mess. Rift had tokens, so I know. I think they should keep it simple, and introduce Vet-Points what are gained by doing all kind of vet-content. PVPers grind APs, and PVErs grind Vet-Points. For high-end PVE content, turn Leadeboards into Bragging Right thing, earn Leaderboard Points and get exlusive Mounts, Titles, Crafting Styles and Costumes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store.

Tokens only create a mess in MMO's when you got so many tiers of gear at level cap and it's their way of stopping new players at level cap from equipping the top tier endgame gear without actually progressing.

With this game it's different because we got a pseudo leveling at endgame from both veteran ranks and the champion system which will eventually replace vet, because the requirement for wearing gear sets are tied to VR and soon your champion rank there doesn't need a million different types of tokens to control progression.

IMO one type of token could work, not only for normal and vet dungeons but all group PvE content as a whole including trials and even group bosses out in the world.

I think endgame PvE needs more to progress than just xp, gold and the odd rare drop and this idea is the best step towards that.

DanielMaxwell

sadly some do not understand a few things

Token systems place a finish point on running dungeons , they do not extend the life of them . Under a token system players know exactly how many times they need to run dungeons in order to get the sets they want , after that they do not need to run the dungeons . This eventually leads to the point of there not being enough players online at the same time who want to run those dungeons . New dungeons would have to use new tokens to prevent players from stockpiling tokens to buy the new sets when they are released .

This does not even address the impact on the games guild trader system with the vendors selling sets , crafting mats , foods and drinks (they would have to be weaker then those sold in the crown store) .

If the token cost is set too high it makes the current RNG system a better choice , but if the tokens cost is too low the dungeons are useless .

The game is supported by the cash shop. RNG systems for loot are best suited to "encouraging" players to use the cash shop . Token systems either have prohibitive token costs( so high that RNG is better) to buy the set pieces or Tokens are sold in the cash shop .

@GothicPython the questions I asked where intended to get you thinking about the effects of what you wanted implemented .
there are good points and bad points from the system itself and from how it will impact other systems in the game .

Preyfar

OGLezard wrote: »

Sadly it's to good for us so they won't do it. We have been pushing this since week 1. So what we got was a new vendor who shows up twice a week and we get to spend millions of gold/AP per item. Then to top it off, its random on what the vendor has (not verified just my assumption on what determines the merchants supplies).

Most of the people I know gave up on pledges. I haven't got a helm in months, and it's just not worth my time. The only reason to do pledges is to raise the Undaunted skill line or if you really, really need to get some Laurel. The loot you get from pledges still only drops in VR14 for the majority, so it's not even doing in the hopes of getting a set item.

I'll never understand why ZOS didn't raise the loot level on those items to VR16. It's like they all agreed "We want players to do the end game, but we want to limit what they can get out of it as much as possible."

Decado

I guess there are different types of places because I've already given up running dungeons, it's so pointless running them for a drop and getting nothing for the effort and then to add insult when you open your gold key get a ring! Not even something to decon but a piece of vendor trash, thanks very much,

However before the cap was raised I had every head and should combo in the game, and you know what? I still
Ran dungeons a lot, I ran for fun and to help out guildies, and that was fine because I didn't care if I got a drop at the end or not so there was no disappointment or anger at a crap system.

As for traders I'm pretty sure the only things people buy from guild
Traders are mats/potions/ writs, most of which there are other ways of getting already, and look at the price of gold mats ATM? Kutas have almost doubled in the last few weeks, a lot people are sticking with purple gear and not even trying to get things like the new runes

BoP ruint most of the things we could of sold because ZoS is trying to force everyone to buy there DLCs

I used to do a lot of pvp and pve now I seem to find myself mainly pvping and giving up on testing new builds. Not worth the sheer grind to try and get them, had high hopes for spell power cure aswel

trisd

One shoulder from 50+ gold keys... I am getting a bit fed up with the RNG to say the very least. When you know the probability of getting the piece you want with the trait and weight you want it is depressing to the point of being off putting.

NobleX35

Sausage wrote: »

Token system isnt so good as people think, when the game gets older, theres going to be hundred of different tokens, all it creates is one big mess.

I've played my fair share of games as well and I can honestly say that a Token system done correctly can make all the difference in the world when it comes to entertainment and incentives to run dungeon content. The concept of this idea is based around a single type of dungeon currency, however I will address some potential issues that could arise from that in just a moment.

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

IMO one type of token could work, not only for normal and vet dungeons but all group PvE content as a whole including trials and even group bosses out in the world.

I think endgame PvE needs more to progress than just xp, gold and the odd rare drop and this idea is the best step towards that.

That was my thought for how this system would work as well. The intent was definitely to extend it into trials and thus provide more of an incentive to run them just like the standard dungeons.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

sadly some do not understand a few things

Token systems place a finish point on running dungeons , they do not extend the life of them . Under a token system players know exactly how many times they need to run dungeons in order to get the sets they want , after that they do not need to run the dungeons . This eventually leads to the point of there not being enough players online at the same time who want to run those dungeons . New dungeons would have to use new tokens to prevent players from stockpiling tokens to buy the new sets when they are released .

If your only intent is to obtain gear then yes, a Token system would place a finish point on running dungeons for you and possibly limit the life span of the content. However for the majority of the player base, the miscellaneous vendors are the key to extending the life span of dungeon content. People will always keep running dungeons if their is an incentive to do so and if they feel they are being properly rewarded. The more stuff to purchase with your Tokens, the longer dungeon content will last.

There are several different ways to counter the stockpiling of tokens. You can put a cap on the currency, which would force people to either spend their Tokens or waste any potential gains. You could reset players Token counts when new gear is introduced. Another potential option off the top of my head is to introduce two currencies at the same time. Players could acquire their standard Undaunted Tokens, and additional set of Tokens at 1/10 the rate. The second set of Tokens could only be used to purchase gear and the gear would also still require the players Undaunted Tokens. The reason for this second currency would be to expand on the idea of resetting Token counts. Players Undaunted Tokens of Valour would never be reset, but any time new gear was introduced the second set Tokens would be reset. I'm just brain storming, but it does show that their are several different solutions to this problem.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

This does not even address the impact on the games guild trader system with the vendors selling sets , crafting mats , foods and drinks (they would have to be weaker then those sold in the crown store) .

I addressed these points in my original post. Food and drinks would obviously need to weaker (like I said) than those sold in the crown store, but the point is to provide additional options for players. Crafting materials can be priced accordingly to account for the market value since these items would be tradeable.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

If the token cost is set too high it makes the current RNG system a better choice , but if the tokens cost is too low the dungeons are useless .

You do make a fair point here, but I still feel like I addressed this my previous posts. This problem inevitably boils down to gear needing to be priced appropriately.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The game is supported by the cash shop. RNG systems for loot are best suited to "encouraging" players to use the cash shop . Token systems either have prohibitive token costs( so high that RNG is better) to buy the set pieces or Tokens are sold in the cash shop .

Endgame content is not really supported by the cash shop in the games current state. The majority of the stuff that the cash shop consists of are vanity items. However, I again addressed this point in my original post. To make this system more appealing to Zenimax, they could implement a scroll to the cash shop that would grant a +50% increase on Undaunted Tokens of Valour acquisitions. They could model it similarly to the +50% experience boost scroll and sell one for 300 Crowns or five for 1000 Crowns. They could also grant subscribers a +10% boost to Undaunted Token acquisitions to help promote subscribing to the game.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

@GothicPython the questions I asked where intended to get you thinking about the effects of what you wanted implemented .
there are good points and bad points from the system itself and from how it will impact other systems in the game .

I have thought about the all the possible effects of a system like this. It is typically a win-win situation for both the players and the company, providing the company implements it correctly.

DanielMaxwell

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

sadly some do not understand a few things

Token systems place a finish point on running dungeons , they do not extend the life of them . Under a token system players know exactly how many times they need to run dungeons in order to get the sets they want , after that they do not need to run the dungeons . This eventually leads to the point of there not being enough players online at the same time who want to run those dungeons . New dungeons would have to use new tokens to prevent players from stockpiling tokens to buy the new sets when they are released .

GothicPython wrote: »

If your only intent is to obtain gear then yes, a Token system would place a finish point on running dungeons for you and possibly limit the life span of the content. However for the majority of the player base, the miscellaneous vendors are the key to extending the life span of dungeon content. People will always keep running dungeons if their is an incentive to do so and if they feel they are being properly rewarded. The more stuff to purchase with your Tokens, the longer dungeon content will last.

There are several different ways to counter the stockpiling of tokens. You can put a cap on the currency, which would force people to either spend their Tokens or waste any potential gains. You could reset players Token counts when new gear is introduced. Another potential option off the top of my head is to introduce two currencies at the same time. Players could acquire their standard Undaunted Tokens, and additional set of Tokens at 1/10 the rate. The second set of Tokens could only be used to purchase gear and the gear would also still require the players Undaunted Tokens. The reason for this second currency would be to expand on the idea of resetting Token counts. Players Undaunted Tokens of Valour would never be reset, but any time new gear was introduced the second set Tokens would be reset. I'm just brain storming, but it does show that their are several different solutions to this problem.

Using the same token for all end game dungeons with a cap just leads to players completeing their sets and stockpiling token to cap so they can buy either the most expensive piece , or 2-3 pieces , of the next tier to released .
Using dual token systems does not change that , adding in set pice tokens only slows it done marginally . Restetting Tokens would basically kill dungeon runs faster , as that actually makes RNG look better . Why run dungeons after you have your set and desired geat if if any of your tokens are reset?

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

This does not even address the impact on the games guild trader system with the vendors selling sets , crafting mats , foods and drinks (they would have to be weaker then those sold in the crown store) .

I addressed these points in my original post. Food and drinks would obviously need to weaker (like I said) than those sold in the crown store, but the point is to provide additional options for players. Crafting materials can be priced accordingly to account for the market value since these items would be tradeable.

Any consumible items(food,drinks,potions) will either be so weak that they are not worth using , or stong enough to be cometitive with the cash shop items which will not happen as they need players using the cash shop.
All crafing mats sold would impact the guild trader system to a dergree that is not going to go ober well with the trader guilds , for understandable reasons.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

If the token cost is set too high it makes the current RNG system a better choice , but if the tokens cost is too low the dungeons are useless .

GothicPython wrote: »

You do make a fair point here, but I still feel like I addressed this my previous posts. This problem inevitably boils down to gear needing to be priced appropriately.

yes and no you where asked how many runs to get a full set not what the cost should be , the number of runs for a full set is the important number as if your looking at 100 plus runs for one pice then RNG is better , if your looking for 20 or fewer runs per piece then you start reducing the cash shop usefullness.

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The game is supported by the cash shop. RNG systems for loot are best suited to "encouraging" players to use the cash shop . Token systems either have prohibitive token costs( so high that RNG is better) to buy the set pieces or Tokens are sold in the cash shop .

Endgame content is not really supported by the cash shop in the games current state. The majority of the stuff that the cash shop consists of are vanity items. However, I again addressed this point in my original post. To make this system more appealing to Zenimax, they could implement a scroll to the cash shop that would grant a +50% increase on Undaunted Tokens of Valour acquisitions. They could model it similarly to the +50% experience boost scroll and sell one for 300 Crowns or five for 1000 Crowns. They could also grant subscribers a +10% boost to Undaunted Token acquisitions to help promote subscribing to the game.

ALL GAME DEVELOPMENT FOR THIS GAME IS SUPPORTED BY THE CASH SHOP , end game content is not devolped for free ZOS has to be making money or they will close the game.

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

@GothicPython the questions I asked where intended to get you thinking about the effects of what you wanted implemented .
there are good points and bad points from the system itself and from how it will impact other systems in the game .

GothicPython wrote: »

I have thought about the all the possible effects of a system like this. It is typically a win-win situation for both the players and the company, providing the company implements it correctly.

No you are ignoreing the impacts of the system could have on the in game guild trader system and that comsumable items would compete with the cash shop items wich ZOS is not going to allow due to the need for players to buy stuff from there to support the games further development( reason why cash shop items come out faster the in game content).

I am not against having a token system , but I aslo realize that such system become very clunky when put into B2P/F2P games .

Makkir

NobleX35

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

sadly some do not understand a few things

Token systems place a finish point on running dungeons , they do not extend the life of them . Under a token system players know exactly how many times they need to run dungeons in order to get the sets they want , after that they do not need to run the dungeons . This eventually leads to the point of there not being enough players online at the same time who want to run those dungeons . New dungeons would have to use new tokens to prevent players from stockpiling tokens to buy the new sets when they are released .

If your only intent is to obtain gear then yes, a Token system would place a finish point on running dungeons for you and possibly limit the life span of the content. However for the majority of the player base, the miscellaneous vendors are the key to extending the life span of dungeon content. People will always keep running dungeons if their is an incentive to do so and if they feel they are being properly rewarded. The more stuff to purchase with your Tokens, the longer dungeon content will last.

There are several different ways to counter the stockpiling of tokens. You can put a cap on the currency, which would force people to either spend their Tokens or waste any potential gains. You could reset players Token counts when new gear is introduced. Another potential option off the top of my head is to introduce two currencies at the same time. Players could acquire their standard Undaunted Tokens, and additional set of Tokens at 1/10 the rate. The second set of Tokens could only be used to purchase gear and the gear would also still require the players Undaunted Tokens. The reason for this second currency would be to expand on the idea of resetting Token counts. Players Undaunted Tokens of Valour would never be reset, but any time new gear was introduced the second set Tokens would be reset. I'm just brain storming, but it does show that their are several different solutions to this problem.

Using the same token for all end game dungeons with a cap just leads to players completeing their sets and stockpiling token to cap so they can buy either the most expensive piece , or 2-3 pieces , of the next tier to released .
Using dual token systems does not change that , adding in set pice tokens only slows it done marginally . Restetting Tokens would basically kill dungeon runs faster , as that actually makes RNG look better . Why run dungeons after you have your set and desired geat if if any of your tokens are reset?

The cap was just merely a suggestion to help combat this potential problem, and contrary to your statement, using a dual token system would have a significant effect on this problem. Also I feel compelled to let you know that I did not say "set piece tokens," which insinuates each dungeon having its own Token set. I instead suggested an all-inclusive secondary token set that the player would also obtain, however at 1/10 the rate the player would obtain Undaunted Tokens of Valour. So if the player obtained 1000 Undaunted Tokens of Valour for completing a dungeon, they would also receive 100 tokens of the secondary token set.

Only the players secondary Token set would be reset, and only when new gear was introduced to the game. The players Undaunted Tokens of Valour (primary dungeon currency) would not be reset and people would absolutely still run dungeons after the secondary Token set is reset for multiple reasons. One of the reasons being the items they can purchase through the miscellaneous vendors and another reason being the fact that the reset is obviously accompanied by brand new gear being introduced to the gear vendors. The player would need both sets of currency to purchase a piece of gear. Many other games use systems similar to this and reset the secondary or top tier token set, and it has no impact on players running content. Like I said the player base will still run the content, especially after a reset because it is accompanied by new gear, and they will want to obtain said gear...that's just how MMO's work. Maybe instead of a complete reset on the secondary token set, the players secondary Tokens are converted to Undaunted Tokens of Valour, that way the player is still compensated in a meaningful way (which again is also something several MMO's do).

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

This does not even address the impact on the games guild trader system with the vendors selling sets , crafting mats , foods and drinks (they would have to be weaker then those sold in the crown store) .

I addressed these points in my original post. Food and drinks would obviously need to weaker (like I said) than those sold in the crown store, but the point is to provide additional options for players. Crafting materials can be priced accordingly to account for the market value since these items would be tradeable.

Any consumible items(food,drinks,potions) will either be so weak that they are not worth using , or stong enough to be cometitive with the cash shop items which will not happen as they need players using the cash shop.
All crafing mats sold would impact the guild trader system to a dergree that is not going to go ober well with the trader guilds , for understandable reasons.

Wow, you really just don't seem to understand the concept of the consumable vendor? It does not matter whether the consumables are weaker than crafted potions (which by the way are still better than store bought potions) and store potions. The point is giving players more options to purchase items with their tokens. If they are low on cash and resources and merely want some cheap potions quickly at the cost of quality...they can buy some with their Undaunted Tokens. They are only meant to provide players with more options to spend their currency on in order to make the currency itself more valuable and to make running dungeons more valuable and meaningful...

Players will purchase crafting materials from the vendors and then either use them, or sell them in the guild traders. Players who put in the work to obtain these materials can sell them to other players via the guild trader, which will actually help the guild trader system contrary to your comments.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

If the token cost is set too high it makes the current RNG system a better choice , but if the tokens cost is too low the dungeons are useless .

You do make a fair point here, but I still feel like I addressed this my previous posts. This problem inevitably boils down to gear needing to be priced appropriately.

yes and no you where asked how many runs to get a full set not what the cost should be , the number of runs for a full set is the important number as if your looking at 100 plus runs for one pice then RNG is better , if your looking for 20 or fewer runs per piece then you start reducing the cash shop usefullness.

I can not answer this because different pieces would cost different amounts of Tokens, however I will give an example similar to the one I gave in my original post. If the average Token acquisition is 1,000 Tokens for an average dungeon run on Veteran mode and a standard piece of gear costs 15,000 Tokens, then through simple math...it would take 15 runs of said average dungeon. Also I feel the need to repeat this statement I made in my original post: this system is not meant to replace the RNG system, but rather to supplement and co-exist with the RNG system. This means that if someone obtains the exact piece of gear they want from the dungeon that it drops in on the first try...then awesome, they can now save their Tokens or spend them on something else.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

The game is supported by the cash shop. RNG systems for loot are best suited to "encouraging" players to use the cash shop . Token systems either have prohibitive token costs( so high that RNG is better) to buy the set pieces or Tokens are sold in the cash shop .

Endgame content is not really supported by the cash shop in the games current state. The majority of the stuff that the cash shop consists of are vanity items. However, I again addressed this point in my original post. To make this system more appealing to Zenimax, they could implement a scroll to the cash shop that would grant a +50% increase on Undaunted Tokens of Valour acquisitions. They could model it similarly to the +50% experience boost scroll and sell one for 300 Crowns or five for 1000 Crowns. They could also grant subscribers a +10% boost to Undaunted Token acquisitions to help promote subscribing to the game.

ALL GAME DEVELOPMENT FOR THIS GAME IS SUPPORTED BY THE CASH SHOP , end game content is not devolped for free ZOS has to be making money or they will close the game.

You keep saying that this idea will devalue the Crown Store...how do you figure the Crown Store's usefulness will be devalued by this system, when almost everything the Crown Store consists of are simply vanity items. Their is literally nothing in the Store that has a direct effect on dungeon content and therefore a system like this will have minimal to no impact on the Crown Store's sales figures. The only way the Stores sales figures could be impacted, is if they implemented the scroll idea on Token acquisition rates that I suggested, and that could only have a positive impact that would actually increase sales.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

@GothicPython the questions I asked where intended to get you thinking about the effects of what you wanted implemented .
there are good points and bad points from the system itself and from how it will impact other systems in the game .

I have thought about the all the possible effects of a system like this. It is typically a win-win situation for both the players and the company, providing the company implements it correctly.

No you are ignoreing the impacts of the system could have on the in game guild trader system and that comsumable items would compete with the cash shop items wich ZOS is not going to allow due to the need for players to buy stuff from there to support the games further development( reason why cash shop items come out faster the in game content).

I am not against having a token system , but I aslo realize that such system become very clunky when put into B2P/F2P games .

I am not ignoring the impacts a system like this could have...you're either not reading my entire posts where I cover all the issues you keep addressing or you just don't understand my explanations. I also feel like you don't truly understand how well a dungeon currency system and a B2P/F2P store can work in conjunction with one another.

Zenimax already has competition for consumable items because people can craft potions and food (which are already better than the store bought items). Allowing people to purchase cheap low quality potions (like ones players can already buy through guild traders) will likely have a very minimal impact on the sales figures Zenimax has for their consumable items in the Crown Store. As far as the motif vendor is concerned...I already addressed this issue as well by stating that the most recently added motif style to the game would not be added to the Vendors. This would give Zenimax a chance to make sales in the Crown Store, before giving players an additional alternative to obtain them in game. They will likely still make Crown Store sales indirectly through means of the Token acquisition scroll I stated earlier as well as direct sales.