My suggested improvement/nerfs to the Templar class to raise 1vX capability and build diversity.

Dovahmiim

All these proposed changed to class abilities and passives are my attempt to balance Templars across the board in PvP. Templars, while in the hands of a VERY good player can fair quite well for 1v1 combat, lack the tools and sustain to be viable enough in 1vX, and are arguably too effective as pocket healers. My solution is the introduction of more proactive elements in the class, while raising sustain slightly. These suggested changes will in no way make Templars any better than what could be considered balanced, while at the same time will retain the original class identity in most areas. For those who are losing interest already, I suggest nerfing the ability of Templars to heal allies with Rushed Ceremony VERY hard, and I play almost exclusively a Templar Healer in PvE (a good healer will near never need to use breath of life, especially with a well positioned group). This will lower the Templar's extreme group synergy, to a balanced point. I disagree with people who say Templars are awful in PvP, with a specific set of skills slotted, allowing for very little room for creativity and versatility with stats, Templar can be very effective in 1v1. This does not mean, however, that they are balanced and at a good point. My changes will keep the effectiveness of a highly skilled Templar in 1v1 relatively unchanged, while bolstering their ability in 1vX, and allowing for the class to be more accessible and versatile.

Aedric Spear

• Empowering Sweep (magicka morph) - This skill needs a very minor rework, to allow it to synergise with other Templar CC. Change the 0.5s knockback to a disorient or snare, I would opt for a disorient, as I feel a snare would make this too powerful as a spammable skill.
• Piercing Javelin (both morphs) - Currently, the high cost does not justify the effectiveness of the ability, I would know, I have been using it as my main CC since 1.6. The actual function of the ability seems fair though, as with correct placement the knockback can result in some hilarious kills. To make this a balanced ability, I think the cost needs to be drastically reduced, perhaps by as much as 50% of it's current base cost, perhaps a price equal with the DK skill burning embers. This would help templar with their much needed sustainability.
• Focused Charge - I do not think the proposed change of adding CC immunity while in charge animation is a good idea, I feel as though if you can react quick enough to use an instant CC on a charging templar, you deserve to avoid the charge. However, I will ask for the impossible and ask for the weird stun after charge to be removed, that would be nice
• Explosive Charge - I think an added bonus for this morph should be a snare (I am unsure of how severe the snare should be) on all targets affected. Then there would be a real choice between the two for PvP, as both would synergise with Puncturing Sweeps, just in different ways.
• Spear Shards (both morphs) - They only thing I would change with this skill is giving it a 100% chance to proc burning light on the target stunned/disorientated. I saw a proposed change in this thread to make it possible to teleport to the Spear Shard, however I see too many exploits and issue coming about as a result, in addition to this function not being consistent with the concept of a Templar. This sort of benefit is too similar to the NB teleport Shade, and would cripple Spear Shard's effectiveness as Templar's best AoE damaging attack for PvE. With my proposed change, it would be a very attractive magicka dump for a Stamplar, even though it is already an attractive skill for a group of 2 or more stamplars, as they can restore eachothers stamina pools.
• Sun Shield - People commonly argue that this skill is just as good as it used to be, as all shields were hit the same amount. Not true. While the general health pool size has remained near the same, if not lowered, for the average PvP templar, the general magicka pool has increased by VERY large amounts comparative to 1.6 (when blazing shield already paled in comparison to the effectiveness of its 1.5 counterpart).What this means is the with the shift to VR16, the damage shield strength nerf, although meant to bring Sorcs in line, hurt Templars FAR more, to the point where blazing shield holds nearly no value. Before you all cry that "WAAA TEMPLARS ALREADY HAVE BREATH OF LIFE!!!", a buff to Sun Shield if done well would encourage Templars to invest more resources in to their health pool, thus decreasing their healing done This could be a blessing in disguise to all you nay-sayers. An issue this skill may then face is that the Blazing Shield morph will be far superior to Sun Shield, and although I have no ideas at the current, I think some very cool things could be done with this.
• Radial Sweep (Ultimate) - Now this seems to me like an ultimate where the Devs really didn't quite know what to go for so just slapped some quite cool effects (with one morph at least) on to a lackluster AoE, which barely hits anything anyway. I feel as though a lot more versatility could be given to Templar builds in PvP if this was some sort of toggle, or self buff, when activated. Just a suggestion, if it were a toggle, it could use a certain amount of ultimate each second until toggled off, and while toggled on, reduce damage received using the same formula (15% + 4%/players near). This sort of function would contribute towards the pro-active ability of Templars I was talking about earlier.
• Passives - Only one change needs to be done here, Balanced Warrior needs to give 6% spell damage in addition to 6% weapon damage.

Dawn's Wrath

• Sun Fire - Now this is a tricky one! Templars do almost exclusively (bar this skill!) magic damage. With current CP limits, this means the relative effective of this skill is far less than it could be if it were a magicka damage skill. But... then it's literally called "Sun Fire". If I had my way, all skills in the Dawn's Wrath would be altered to do flame damage, I mean you are harnessing the Sun's energy... Luckily, I need not say any more, as ZoS devs have already stated they will be streamlining the CP benefits for magic/elemental damage in the 'Thieves Guild" update. The actual purpose of this skill is fantastic though, it is very effective when combined with Puncturing Sweeps, and grants a buff to critical. I would argue that the Vampire's Bane morph needs to be given increased damage per second for the DoT component (with a longer lasting DoT), and a more effective snare component (60% snare).
• Dark Flare - This ability is actually really well done on paper. And in fact it is a VERY good ability, it's my primary damaging ability for my gank build. However, with it's very long and sluggish cast time (in reality is far higher than tool tip value, not so much an issue with subsequent spammed casts) it is very easily avoided/reflected in pvp. It's literally a hard casted C-Frags, with a heal debuff attached to it, and a way longer travel time. I do not think giving an instant cast proc would be fair however, this ability is definitely aimed more for a timed and controlled burst, from which it is hard to recover. I feel as though to allow this skill to be less sluggish, the cast time should be lowered considerably, or at the very least, to it's tooltip value on first cast! Another suggestion, not actually changing anything, is to adjust the tooltip to include a component about how the flare reveals hidden enemies at the point of impact. This skill already performs that function, due to the heal debuff coming with a small AoE damage component. As seen in game, this is not overpowered, rather it fits quite well with the idea of a flare, and brings the ability to a comfortable point.
• Solar Barrage - The AoE morph of Solar Flare, this skill really never sees the time of day due to being simply outclassed by Spear Shards. Especially so due to the short time where you are rooted while casting. Firstly, that needs to be removed so the ability serves its desired function without feeling clunky. I feel this ability should not do increased AoE damage, as it is already unique in that it grants the empower buff just for casting, which I can see being VERY useful for a Stamplar gank build. To bring this ability on par with its other morph, I feel as though it should be stronger in the secondary component of Dark Flare, that is it should prevent enemies hit by the AoE from entering stealth for a period of time, similar to the god awful Alliance War skill, but centered on the caster, and with instant AoE damage as opposed to a strong DoT. I see this being another useful skill for both Stamplar and Magicka Templar in open world PvP.
• Backlash (both morphs) - This skill, both of its morphs, are a joke. The damage cap is based on just max stam or magicka pools, and is invariably a DPS loss. This is primarily a PvE skill, however I feel that to bring it to being at the point of useful, the damage cap needs to also scale off of spell/wep power, and it needs to add the major debuff to either spell resist or physical resist, depending on morph. If this is just impossible to balance, or just a dead skill, I would replace this with a proactive skill of similar purpose to Blinding Flashes, some sort of AoE CC. In fact I would prioritise this over fixing the skill, just replace it with an AoE CC.
• Eclipse (both morphs) - This needs to be able to apply to more than one target, and keep its current correlation with CC immunity. It would just be too powerful a gimp if it wasn't. The unstable core morph also needs to deal increased damage on break. Another idea could be for the unstable core morph to reflect physical attacks and not magical ones, however I have a feeling stamina users would not take too kindly to that, and it may prove to be too powerful. To bring the effectiveness of this ability to a good point, I would also suggest that it debuff the person affected with minor main upon break. Otherwise, against a good player, this skill is effectively a free CC immunity.
• Radiant Destruction (both morphs) - Ahhh, everyone's favourite. Pre IC update, this ability was overpowered, hands down. However, with the current update, I barely find it to be an effective execute against any half decent player, and I'm running 3k unbuffed spell damage. There is one reason for this. It is dodge-able. This was what made this ability so feared by Stamina users and Magicka users alike, that the typical break free + roll combo would be ineffective against a Templar. Especially now that line of sight affects RD, it is more important than ever that channeled abilities such as this and soul assault be changed to ignore dodge roll. This would not make it overpowered, it would just make it somewhat fearsome again. Templar is stuck with huge cast times and channeled DPS, at least make our execute do more than just angrily shake our fist at the enemy.
• Nova (both morphs) - Perf, this ability in groups is fantastic, primarily (near exclusively, outside of sewers) useful in PvE, and I don't see any reason to change that if one of the other Templar ultimates is made worth using in PvP over Dawnbreaker or Bats.
• Passives - Although I have few specific suggestions, it is an irrefutable fact that Templar has the worst passive resource management. Even our active resource management is situational, and requires 2 skills (repentance and channeled focus) to be slotted just to scrape the surface of the resource management of other classes (in PvP). I say to close the gap and make Templar sustainable while actually trying to win fights, as opposed to standing in a rune and heal spamming, there should be some form of magicka return granted for the use of Dawn's Wrath skills... hell, anything to help out magicka management, which is simply put worse than other classes.

Restoring Light

• Rushed Ceremony (both morphs) - First off, we don't need a stamina morph of this skill, NOPE, that would be miles too powerful. Now, this may come as a surprise from a Templar who PvE heals... but... I do not think this should be a smart heal. For as long as it is, it bottlenecks the Templar Class in to being the healer. We should have a slight advantage healing, not an overwhelming one. In addition, as my lord and saviour @FENGRUSH has noted several times, PvP Templar healbots really are over the top. It's the fact that they can keep other players at full health continuously... through walls... they don't even need to know where they are... I suggest that the smart healing component only become a factor with the secondary heals of BoL, with the primary heal of both morphs ONLY going to the caster. Keep the bonuses for each morph the same.
  After much discussion, I feel a better solution to the issue of retaining Templar's very strong healing ability while having the class also very capable in solo and 1vX is to instead focus on the player's individual morph choices. While I still feel some aspects of the smart heal component of BoL component need to be reworked, I am fine to leave the ability as it ifthe following change is made to the Honor the Dead: "Focus your inner light to heal yourself for [x] amount and blind nearby enemies. Blinded enemies have a 50% chance to miss and be set off balance for [y] seconds"
• Healing Ritual (both morphs) - With the decline of the above skill, I feel as though healing ritual needs to be totally reworked. In any case, I think it needs to function like a magicka version of Vigor, with its own unique attributes. I'll let those smarter and more creative than I do the thinking here.
• Radiant Aura - This is the worst skill in the game, period. This skill needs to provide a benefit similar to repentance, that is, activation gives some form of stamina return. This could be the way to bring Stamplars back in line with other stam classes. Repentance, although giving the same passive 10% regen across the board, isn't as useful in PvP, especially when running solo. And in a group, chances are there is already a magicka Templar, who will be spamming repentance anyway. For magicka templars, I could see this skill bringing back the effectiveness of the double bubble, making immovable somewhat sustainable for magicka templar again.... ok no, don't make it that good XD Just something equivalent to Repentance that would help with resource management in similar fashion, but have a high casting cost and not rely on harvesting the CORPSES OF THE DEAD.
• Cleansing Ritual (both morphs) - This skill is perfectly fine, no buffs or nerfs needed. One is a PvE morph, the other is a PvP morph.
• Rune Focus (both morphs) - Another toughie, my goal with these proposed changed was to bring Templar up to the point of being balanced for Solo and Group Play, 1v1 and 1vX. I have seen suggestions that propose one morph give stamina return as opposed to magicka, but I am very much against these changes. Restoring Aura and its morphs are the Templar stamina management skill, this should not have ANY overlap. The overall design of this skill just puts it behind other armour buff skills, as it is a rune that does not move. I suggest the base skill function the same as Channeled Focus does currently, with the Channeled Focus morph being a self-buff, with the same effects; and the Restoring Focus instead being renamed to "Binding Focus", with the following function.
  Instead of a magicka restore effect, the rune will apply an immobolise to enemies who enter its vacinity, which can be purged or roll dodged out of. However, if they were to enter the vacinity again, the immobolise would be applied again. This could be used to counter WB spammers by forcing them to enter the vacinity, and would encourage a more 'hold your ground' Templar playstyle. This will serve as a much needed AoE soft CC for Templars, with a unique function that can be utilised very well by a good player. The 2 morphs will cater to 2 different playstyles, one more to the healer playstyle, and one more to the solo player.
• Passives - Only one change I think is needed here, focused healing needs to grant 30% bonus to ALL heals in radius of listed abilities (Major Mending), not just restoring light abilities.

Note that the above is liable to change should anyone convince me that anything I have suggested is not conducive to a balanced pvp experience

caeliusstarbreaker

It's balanced warrior... Not balanced spell caster. I'll be ok with it giving spell dmg boost, just as soon as all the dawns wrath tree abilities/passives give wpn dmg or have a stam consideration.

Added: restoring light tree should work with all heals, or make restoring focus grant major mending.

All the templar ulti's need reworking.
Back lash should be removed and blinding flashes returned to the game.

Dovahmiim

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

It's balanced warrior... Not balanced spell caster. I'll be ok with it giving spell dmg boost, just as soon as all the dawns wrath tree abilities give wpn dmg or have a stam consideration.

Added: restoring light tree should work with all heals, or make restoring focus grant major mending.

All the templar ulti's need reworking.
Back lash should be removed and blinding flashes returned to the game.

Key word there I think is "balanced" Why give to one side and not the other? Remember, balanced warrior was originally conceived with staves being the weapons of choice for Templars, which at the time scaled off of weapon damage. Dawns Wrath is the one skill tree that I see as difficult to synergise with Stamina based abilities, rather, it should contain magicka survival utility useful to stamina builds. Such as blinding flashes or eclipse, the latter of which is still an amazing skill for a stamina Templar. Given that in terms of resource management, the restoring light ability repentance or an equivalently useful morph (when one is given) gives far better stam management to the class than all rune focus morphs give to magicka management (even with my proposed changes), it would perhaps favour Stamplars too much with both regen and weapon damage bonuses to have another weapon damage passive.

As for your point about the restoring light tree, I mentioned the exact same change in my post.

I disagree about all ultis need reworking... only Nova is in a good place, I feel the other 2 need to be adapted to be genuinely useful in PvP. I mentioned a solid idea for Radial Sweep, however the heal one... I don't even know its name it's so bad, perhaps it could be some sort of ability that granted CC immunity for a period of time along with buffing you healing received... just an idea... a pretty bad one though.

timidobserver

Pretty nice type up. There are a few things I am neutral on, would do a different way, or can't be bothered to mention, but my main disagreements are below.

Eclipse: I don't really see the issue with having this reflect physical projectiles. The most used physical projectiles will be fired from stealth in order to attempt to oneshot combo you before you can use eclipse anyway. If the oneshot combo fails, it will devolve into wrecking blow, ransack, or surprise attack spamming, which can't be reflected.

Also, attaching this ability to hard CC immunity was just a lazy way to limit it. If it has to have an immunity, it should have it's own immunity timer that isn't related to the general CC immunity or add a stun on breaking it to justify the immunity.

Balanced Warrior: Nightblades have passives that buff all of their weapon and spell critical damage and critical percentage. Sorcerers can buff their spell or weapon damage by adding Sorc skills. Taking that into consideration, I am okay with the Templar passive applying to both as well.

Rushed Ceremony: I would only be okay with nerfing this if we gained something to make it worth the loss. If you limit yourself to doing mostly one thing in game(1vX/small scale Pvp), then it works for you, but it just hammers us across every other part of the overall game. We need more to compensate such a huge nerf.

Reading your post, I see no suggestions that would balance out such a big nerf. I am not against toning down Templar healing and buffing up other stuff, but the way you are suggesting it is like giving away $100 in order to get $10.

Dovahmiim

timidobserver wrote: »

Pretty nice type up. There are a few things I am neutral on, would do a different way, or can't be bothered to mention, but my main disagreements are below.

Eclipse: I don't really see the issue with having this reflect physical projectiles. The most used physical projectiles will be fired from stealth in order to attempt to oneshot combo you before you can use eclipse anyway. If the oneshot combo fails, it will devolve into wrecking blow, ransack, or surprise attack spamming, which can't be reflected.

Also, attaching this ability to hard CC immunity was just a lazy way to limit it. If it has to have an immunity, it should have it's own immunity timer that isn't related to the general CC immunity or add a stun on breaking it to justify the immunity.
If given the choice I would keep eclipse as a spell only reflect for both morphs, blazing shield when balanced properly is a perfectly fine deterrent for stamina based gameplay, it was just a suggestion to spark discussion. As for a unique immunity, I would agree that the idea sounds fantastic, but think of the complications involved. From a programming perspective, this would create a whole new variable to consider, and I can see this putting unnecessary stress on the already poorly performing servers. In addition, how would one differentiate between regular CC immunity and Eclipse immunity? This would be very difficult to execute, from both a offensive and defensive standpoint. How long would an Eclipse immunity last, would unstoppable need to be modified to also grant this immunity to a single skill? Again, in theory it would be optimal, but from a programming and gameplay perspective it would be extremely difficult to execute, and as we both know how ZoS operates, this renders the discussion of a unique immunity absolutely pointless. It will never happen.

Balanced Warrior: Nightblades have passives that buff all of their weapon and spell critical damage and critical percentage. Sorcerers can buff their spell or weapon damage by adding Sorc skills. Taking that into consideration, I am okay with the Templar passive applying to both as well.
Given that stamina users will have weapon damage stats typically 1000 points higher in pvp, this means they would still get the most benefit out of this passive.

Rushed Ceremony: I would only be okay with nerfing this if we gained something to make it worth the loss. If you limit yourself to doing mostly one thing in game(1vX/small scale Pvp), then it works for you, but it just hammers us across every other part of the overall game. We need more to compensate such a huge nerf.
This was my suggestion with the completely new skill replacing healing ritual. BoL is such an insanely huge advantage for healing, and in PvP it really is too much. For as long as the ability is so effective for group healing, Templars will be bottlenecked, with "but you guyz can heal XD" being the excuse to keep us from reaching our full potential. In it's current state, BoL can be the soul skill used by a healer throughout all non trial PvE content in game, there is no skill involved. I have healed through all content and trials in game without BoL slotted, so I disagree with your statement that a nerf would hammer Templars across other parts of the game. It would just mean that healbots would need to L2P. That being said, Templars would still have the healing edge, if by a small amount, if Healing Ritual becomes some sort of strong AoE HoT. My proposed changes bring an element of skill and situational awareness back in to both PvE and PvP group healing.

Reading your post, I see no suggestions that would balance out such a big nerf. I am not against toning down Templar healing and buffing up other stuff, but the way you are suggesting it is like giving away $100 in order to get $10
Again, this is in the name of balancing Templar. So long as we are considered the "healing" class, we are doomed to be less effective in solo play. As it stands, healing as a Templar is laughably easy, an ideal balanced situation is where they have the edge, but not to the point where they are the default healers. The trade off for an OP smart heal will be a strong AoE HoT, promoting good player positioning and awareness of his/her group to be effective. This is how it should be, not just watching your group health bars on the left hand side of your screen, and pressing a button when any one of them drops even by a little bit..

caeliusstarbreaker

The balancing is between offensive and defense .. Wpn dmg and spell resist. No where was it touted that Templars were supposed to be staff wielders.

Illuminate gives you the spell dmg you so desire, and as magplars get half the benefit of balanced warrior (if we are considering the spell resistance to be a benefit at all) Stamplars receive zero benefit from illuminate.

Yes repentance is a godsend for Stamplars however you have to kill things to make it worthwhile, and on the magicka side of the house I think any magicka player can attest to stam as an important factor also a cost free heal, which again aids magplar and again narrows or elongates the gap on who it is favoring. I wouldn't be worrying too much about repentance giving mag recov, as channeled focus gives you more or less another low cost massive amount of regen.

Nova needs it's cost reduced, and potentially something other than a crappy snare to be non-group play dependent/worthy.

Radial sweep is garbage, if I could just be allowed to slot another regular ability in it's place for the same ulti cost.

Rememberance is horrible cause you're locked in place and given battle spirit and a heal debuff... The only thing you have done for yourself is invite people to build ulti before they chuckle and kill you. Now, if rememberance worked like magma armor and allowed you to move and attack while having that heal and dmg reduc, I would send Eric Wroebel chocolate.

Because this is all text, I would like to insert that none of this was said or stipulated in an argumentative or condescending tone, so I hope that it wasn't taken as such.

caeliusstarbreaker

Oh... Added:

The problem with magplar dmg is not the 6% spell dmg you aren't receiving from balanced warrior.... It's the way champion points mitigate dmg, and the way certain attacks are categorized within game parameters. Stamplars are sacrificing all but 1 passive in the dawns wrath tree and none of their restoring light passives being used for anything but repentance. 6% wpn dmg is basically the only "leg up."

CatchMeTrolling

Healing does not need to be touched, there's not enough dedicated healers as it is. What's wrong with this community, if you guys had your way everyone would run around as dps...oh wait

timidobserver

The way you responded kind of makes it hard to do quotes, so I will just type out the responses the best I can.

Eclipse: It definitely would take some work, but it would not be that complicated to set it up so that a player that has been eclipsed cannot be affected by it again for X seconds. Brian Wheeler went into great detail about what kind of skills cause issues with performance. There would be one check on a single person. It isn't an AoE buff that does checks on every player in a larger area like Brian described.

Balanced Warrior: I don't really care about Stam getting more out of it. I am just not opposed to Magicka builds getting something out of it.

Rushed Ceremony: You are speaking as if I am opposed to the nerf suggestion, but I would be fine with it. However, the trade off you suggest simply isn't worth it. Yeh I saw some vague suggestion about a Magicka Vigor and leaving it to others to come up with the specifics. I am not willing to take a huge nerf in exchange for some vague magicka vigor with undefined specifics. If our healing advantage is reduced significantly, then other areas need to be buffed significantly.

Dovahmiim

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

The balancing is between offensive and defense .. Wpn dmg and spell resist. No where was it touted that Templars were supposed to be staff wielders.

Illuminate gives you the spell dmg you so desire, and as magplars get half the benefit of balanced warrior (if we are considering the spell resistance to be a benefit at all) Stamplars receive zero benefit from illuminate.
This is the Templar's AoE group buff passive. All classes have one, granting the minor sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery buff. The Templar one just happens to be spell damage related, you can get your equivalent by being close to a DK casting Earthen Heart abilities. All classes, bar DK from memory, have a passive that buffs either weapon/spell power or crit equally, I see no reason why Templar would be excluded from this trend.

Yes repentance is a godsend for Stamplars however you have to kill things to make it worthwhile, and on the magicka side of the house I think any magicka player can attest to stam as an important factor also a cost free heal, which again aids magplar and again narrows or elongates the gap on who it is favoring. I wouldn't be worrying too much about repentance giving mag recov, as channeled focus gives you more or less another low cost massive amount of regen.
Fair point, however my above point stands. With the current meta of high mobility and no cost reduction enchants (all reduction is % based), the magicka gain benefits from channeled focus are not so great when taking in to account the casting cost. I agree that in pvp repentance is underwhelming, primarily for solo play/small group due to low body count. I have played Stamplar enough in 1.5 all the way through to IC to know that Radiant Aura needs to be reworked to be as viable, albeit with a magicka cost, as Repentance.

Nova needs it's cost reduced, and potentially something other than a crappy snare to be non-group play dependent/worthy.
I disagree, Nova is VERY strong in small group and large group PvP, we can't expect all Templar ultimates to suddenly be equally solo friendly when Templar is a synergy focused class.

Radial sweep is garbage, if I could just be allowed to slot another regular ability in it's place for the same ulti cost.
Yep, needs a total rework, if Templar is going to get one staple Ultimate for PvP, I'd wager this could be it if done correctly.

Rememberance is horrible cause you're locked in place and given battle spirit and a heal debuff... The only thing you have done for yourself is invite people to build ulti before they chuckle and kill you. Now, if rememberance worked like magma armor and allowed you to move and attack while having that heal and dmg reduc, I would send Eric Wroebel chocolate.
I would too, the man needs it.

Because this is all text, I would like to insert that none of this was said or stipulated in an argumentative or condescending tone, so I hope that it wasn't taken as such.
Dude no worries, I just like the discussion, it's frustrating seeing so many blatant "buff Templars to be gods" threads, few people are being realistic.

Dovahmiim

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Healing does not need to be touched, there's not enough dedicated healers as it is. What's wrong with this community, if you guys had your way everyone would run around as dps...oh wait

So you would like Templars to stay bottlenecked strictly under the "healer" label so you can find a group faster? It's not my fault that most players gravitate towards the easiest role in PvE. This nerf to Templar healing may actually encourage other magicka classes to adopt the healer role, DKs and NBs can be just as effective as healers as Templars even in this current patch, but they must be played very well. Templars will still be able to quite comfortably heal through all content in game without BoL, especially with the proposed change to Healing Ritual that could occur in conjunction with the BoL nerf.

Dovahmiim

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Oh... Added:

The problem with magplar dmg is not the 6% spell dmg you aren't receiving from balanced warrior.... It's the way champion points mitigate dmg, and the way certain attacks are categorized within game parameters. Stamplars are sacrificing all but 1 passive in the dawns wrath tree and none of their restoring light passives being used for anything but repentance. 6% wpn dmg is basically the only "leg up."
Check my proposed changed to Restoring Light passives. With the introduction of more proactive Templar defensive skills, Stamplars will be in a really good spot!

CatchMeTrolling

Dovahmiim wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Healing does not need to be touched, there's not enough dedicated healers as it is. What's wrong with this community, if you guys had your way everyone would run around as dps...oh wait

So you would like Templars to stay bottlenecked strictly under the "healer" label so you can find a group faster? It's not my fault that most players gravitate towards the easiest role in PvE. This nerf to Templar healing may actually encourage other magicka classes to adopt the healer role, DKs and NBs can be just as effective as healers as Templars even in this current patch, but they must be played very well. Templars will still be able to quite comfortably heal through all content in game without BoL, especially with the proposed change to Healing Ritual that could occur in conjunction with the BoL nerf.

I'm talking about pvp, not pve. Templars are fine with the current healing, they can also do a lot of damage too. The only ones labeling them just healers are the people who don't main one or can't play one. There shouldn't even be any talk about nerfing when it comes to Templars...breath of life will not save you when there's multiple people focusing you down.

Just remember it's Templars that save you when you're about to die. Templars can't win, you heal and people say something bad, you don't heal they'll question why you don't lol our execute got nerfed, gap closer won't work, sweeps doesn't crit through shields, total dark is useless at times, we get stam locked the most for whatever reason, our best cc is no more, our ults are lackluster to say the least, our mobility and ability to stand our ground is little to none BUT our healing should be nerfed..again.

Dovahmiim

timidobserver wrote: »

The way you responded kind of makes it hard to do quotes, so I will just type out the responses the best I can.

Eclipse: It definitely would take some work, but it would not be that complicated to set it up so that a player that has been eclipsed cannot be affected by it again for X seconds. Brian Wheeler went into great detail about what kind of skills cause issues with performance. There would be one check on a single person. It isn't an AoE buff that does checks on every player in a larger area like Brian described.

Balanced Warrior: I don't really care about Stam getting more out of it. I am just not opposed to Magicka builds getting something out of it.

Rushed Ceremony: You are speaking as if I am opposed to the nerf suggestion, but I would be fine with it. However, the trade off you suggest simply isn't worth it. Yeh I saw some vague suggestion about a Magicka Vigor and leaving it to others to come up with the specifics. I am not willing to take a huge nerf in exchange for some vague magicka vigor with undefined specifics. If our healing advantage is reduced significantly, then other areas need to be buffed significantly.

I'll respond this way if it makes things easier, I'll still a bit new to this whole forum thing

Eclipse: Man I am all for it if you can suggest a system that would allow for minimum confusion and would not make the ability too strong. I just see so many issues when I put myself in the shoes of someone being affected by it. I mean, does it cost stamina to break free of Eclipse too? Does that then mean that Templar can drain the stamina of a magicka user twice as fast? Remember this ability is basically a hardcounter, it literally shuts down every other class while on them. What kind of visual do we use to indicate immunity? I could name several more potential issues, and you may be right about the coding perspective, it would be a check no more stressful than that done by projectiles with regards to reflective scales. It could just be too heavy of a gimp against magicka users, to need to deal with 2 forms of incoming CC that they must spend time going through break free animations for. Lots of factors here man, I just don't see ZoS putting that much thought in to this instead of opting for an easier rework of the skill.

Balanced Warrior: Yeah it really is a non issue by comparison to other Templar issues, I simply suggested it as it would follow the same trend as other similar class buffs.

Rushed Ceremony: I am thinking more in the grande scheme of things here. We face a few issues: Templar is bottlenecked as healer, and this justifies the class having less overall effectiveness and proactive defense, because "MUH HEALZ", and discourages other classes from attempting healing in PvE; Templar heal botting in PvP is far too strong, and it bolsters the effectiveness of ball groups and zergs further. I am not saying this because heal bots annoy me, I'm saying this because I have played one in PvP, and been in groups with several of them, and I recognise it as a REAL issue in PvP. I personally think that lowering their blatantly OP group effectiveness, while raising their ability in solo situations and thus creating more class diversity would balance the class out more, and alleviate the above issues. But again, I may be unique in the sense that I rarely, if ever, use BoL to heal in PvE. We may have to agree to disagree on that point, which is totally fine, but would you be more inclined to agree with my proposed changes if they only affected PvP? The changes to BoL being a smart heal that is.

Dovahmiim

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Healing does not need to be touched, there's not enough dedicated healers as it is. What's wrong with this community, if you guys had your way everyone would run around as dps...oh wait

So you would like Templars to stay bottlenecked strictly under the "healer" label so you can find a group faster? It's not my fault that most players gravitate towards the easiest role in PvE. This nerf to Templar healing may actually encourage other magicka classes to adopt the healer role, DKs and NBs can be just as effective as healers as Templars even in this current patch, but they must be played very well. Templars will still be able to quite comfortably heal through all content in game without BoL, especially with the proposed change to Healing Ritual that could occur in conjunction with the BoL nerf.

I'm talking about pvp, not pve. Templars are fine with the current healing, they can also do a lot of damage too. The only ones labeling them just healers are the people who don't main one or can't play one. There shouldn't even be any talk about nerfing when it comes to Templars...breath of life will not save you when there's multiple people focusing you down.

Just remember it's Templars that save you when you're about to die. Templars can't win, you heal and people say something bad, you don't heal they'll question why you don't lol our execute got nerfed, gap closer won't work, sweeps doesn't crit through shields, total dark is useless at times, we get stam locked the most for whatever reason, our best cc is no more, our ults are lackluster to say the least, our mobility and ability to stand our ground is little to none BUT our healing should be nerfed..again.

Man... it's as though you didn't even read my post... I literally addressed EVERYTHING you just mentioned... I even include solutions to your 1vX issues (which was my primary focus in the original post). I clock 20-22k DPS while healing, I am well aware that Templars can do some serious damage in PvE. For my proposed changes, I would be just as effective a healer, the main issue is that if Templars were to be raised in 1vX effectiveness, 1v1 very slightly, and resource management (which the class sorely needs), they would be a literal god class with their current healing capabilities to other players.

Templars CAN save you when you're about to die in pvp... so can ALL other classes, I personally use healing ward to "save" people as a Templar. It's simple, if you want to play your Templar as a viable option in the current state of PvP, solo or in a group, you will need to sacrifice your god like, no skill, healing convenience (not effectiveness, BoL is an unnecessary skill for top tier healers). Still, I wouldn't advocate for this BoL nerf without an appropriate rework of the Healing Ritual skill, to be the new 'heal other' skill for the Templar class.

CatchMeTrolling

Dovahmiim wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Healing does not need to be touched, there's not enough dedicated healers as it is. What's wrong with this community, if you guys had your way everyone would run around as dps...oh wait

So you would like Templars to stay bottlenecked strictly under the "healer" label so you can find a group faster? It's not my fault that most players gravitate towards the easiest role in PvE. This nerf to Templar healing may actually encourage other magicka classes to adopt the healer role, DKs and NBs can be just as effective as healers as Templars even in this current patch, but they must be played very well. Templars will still be able to quite comfortably heal through all content in game without BoL, especially with the proposed change to Healing Ritual that could occur in conjunction with the BoL nerf.

I'm talking about pvp, not pve. Templars are fine with the current healing, they can also do a lot of damage too. The only ones labeling them just healers are the people who don't main one or can't play one. There shouldn't even be any talk about nerfing when it comes to Templars...breath of life will not save you when there's multiple people focusing you down.

Just remember it's Templars that save you when you're about to die. Templars can't win, you heal and people say something bad, you don't heal they'll question why you don't lol our execute got nerfed, gap closer won't work, sweeps doesn't crit through shields, total dark is useless at times, we get stam locked the most for whatever reason, our best cc is no more, our ults are lackluster to say the least, our mobility and ability to stand our ground is little to none BUT our healing should be nerfed..again.

Man... it's as though you didn't even read my post... I literally addressed EVERYTHING you just mentioned... I even include solutions to your 1vX issues (which was my primary focus in the original post). I clock 20-22k DPS while healing, I am well aware that Templars can do some serious damage in PvE. For my proposed changes, I would be just as effective a healer, the main issue is that if Templars were to be raised in 1vX effectiveness, 1v1 very slightly, and resource management (which the class sorely needs), they would be a literal god class with their current healing capabilities to other players.

Templars CAN save you when you're about to die in pvp... so can ALL other classes, I personally use healing ward to "save" people as a Templar. It's simple, if you want to play your Templar as a viable option in the current state of PvP, solo or in a group, you will need to sacrifice your god like, no skill, healing convenience (not effectiveness, BoL is an unnecessary skill for top tier healers). Still, I wouldn't advocate for this BoL nerf without an appropriate rework of the Healing Ritual skill, to be the new 'heal other' skill for the Templar class.

Lol. If you're a Templar just let blab speak for us.

Dovahmiim

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol. If you're a Templar just let blab speak for us.

Yep ) u got me XD bettr call blabcat XD

timidobserver

Dovahmiim wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

The way you responded kind of makes it hard to do quotes, so I will just type out the responses the best I can.

Eclipse: It definitely would take some work, but it would not be that complicated to set it up so that a player that has been eclipsed cannot be affected by it again for X seconds. Brian Wheeler went into great detail about what kind of skills cause issues with performance. There would be one check on a single person. It isn't an AoE buff that does checks on every player in a larger area like Brian described.

Balanced Warrior: I don't really care about Stam getting more out of it. I am just not opposed to Magicka builds getting something out of it.

Rushed Ceremony: You are speaking as if I am opposed to the nerf suggestion, but I would be fine with it. However, the trade off you suggest simply isn't worth it. Yeh I saw some vague suggestion about a Magicka Vigor and leaving it to others to come up with the specifics. I am not willing to take a huge nerf in exchange for some vague magicka vigor with undefined specifics. If our healing advantage is reduced significantly, then other areas need to be buffed significantly.

I'll respond this way if it makes things easier, I'll still a bit new to this whole forum thing

Eclipse: Man I am all for it if you can suggest a system that would allow for minimum confusion and would not make the ability too strong. I just see so many issues when I put myself in the shoes of someone being affected by it. I mean, does it cost stamina to break free of Eclipse too? Does that then mean that Templar can drain the stamina of a magicka user twice as fast? Remember this ability is basically a hardcounter, it literally shuts down every other class while on them. What kind of visual do we use to indicate immunity? I could name several more potential issues, and you may be right about the coding perspective, it would be a check no more stressful than that done by projectiles with regards to reflective scales. It could just be too heavy of a gimp against magicka users, to need to deal with 2 forms of incoming CC that they must spend time going through break free animations for. Lots of factors here man, I just don't see ZoS putting that much thought in to this instead of opting for an easier rework of the skill.

Balanced Warrior: Yeah it really is a non issue by comparison to other Templar issues, I simply suggested it as it would follow the same trend as other similar class buffs.

Rushed Ceremony: I am thinking more in the grande scheme of things here. We face a few issues: Templar is bottlenecked as healer, and this justifies the class having less overall effectiveness and proactive defense, because "MUH HEALZ", and discourages other classes from attempting healing in PvE; Templar heal botting in PvP is far too strong, and it bolsters the effectiveness of ball groups and zergs further. I am not saying this because heal bots annoy me, I'm saying this because I have played one in PvP, and been in groups with several of them, and I recognise it as a REAL issue in PvP. I personally think that lowering their blatantly OP group effectiveness, while raising their ability in solo situations and thus creating more class diversity would balance the class out more, and alleviate the above issues. But again, I may be unique in the sense that I rarely, if ever, use BoL to heal in PvE. We may have to agree to disagree on that point, which is totally fine, but would you be more inclined to agree with my proposed changes if they only affected PvP? The changes to BoL being a smart heal that is.

Eclipse: We'll use the old version of Drain Essence as a proof of concept that it can be done and that it destroy the game's performance, but the cool down shouldn't be as obnoxiously long as that one was.

IMO, you shouldn't be able to break free of eclipse. It just has a wait period in between applications. I envision it as an extremely tactical skill that you can apply once every x seconds.

Rushed Ceremony: Nah to it only affecting PvP. It isn't about PvE or PvP. I don't know any other way to say it. You are acting as if I am against nerfing Templar healing. I could care less about that much of it. I just want more in exchange for it than you are offering in your suggestions. This is a thread that Gina Bruno requested and you can find a lot of examples of buffs in this thread of things the Templar community would like to see happen with the class, including my own post. templar issues thread

It is purely about equal trade-offs not PvE or PvP. I am not in favor of a compensating us for a huge nerf to BoL by replacing an already crap skill that I would never use with what sounds like a slightly less crap one that I'd probably still never use. There shouldn't have to be a trade off to get the garbage that is healing ritual made useful anyway.

In exchange for a massive nerf to BoL, I would want buff(s) survivability, dps, mobility, escape, and/or cc(not all of those things but some of them) not more healing. For example, we are the only class that doesn't have a single immobilize in our class skills. Every other class has at least two different skills that apply some form of it. We don't have a single AoE/cone CC at all. Every other class has at least one.

Illumous

The moment you say nerf BoL, this becomes a nerf Templar thread. I've been playing Templar since early beta and I'm sick of Templars being nerfed without proper buffs to compensate. How about before we cry nerf on BoL, we fix all our broken skills first, make our worthless ones better or replace them (I miss you Blinding Flashes), give us competitive passives like other classes, and give us some good CCs instead of skills that hand out free CC immunity (get rid of that knockback on Jabs ZOS).

Once we get that all ironed out, then lets talk about BoL changes again. It never helps to take one step forward, then two steps back like we've been doing with Templars as far back as I can remember (starting with Restoring Spirit no longer returning Magicka in Beta and more recently with Blazing Spear's DoT nerf).

leepalmer95

Illumous wrote: »

The moment you say nerf BoL, this becomes a nerf Templar thread. I've been playing Templar since early beta and I'm sick of Templars being nerfed without proper buffs to compensate. How about before we cry nerf on BoL, we fix all our broken skills first, make our worthless ones better or replace them (I miss you Blinding Flashes), give us competitive passives like other classes, and give us some good CCs instead of skills that hand out free CC immunity (get rid of that knockback on Jabs ZOS).

Once we get that all ironed out, then lets talk about BoL changes again. It never helps to take one step forward, then two steps back like we've been doing with Templars as far back as I can remember (starting with Restoring Spirit no longer returning Magicka in Beta and more recently with Blazing Spear's DoT nerf).

Did you even read the OP?

sabresandiego_ESO

Mostly Good Suggestions here.

To sum it up, templars are the worst class in the game for everything besides spamming breath of life and other heals. They have no offensive capability at all against good players who know how to shut down cast time and channeled abilities or use line of sight. Their animations are either bugged, slow, or sloppy and unresponsive.

The class needs a lot of work and your suggestions are a good starting point. Smart healing needs to be nerfed into the ground as well.

The class is designed to be immobile, and have clunky animations with horrendous cast times or channels.

sabresandiego_ESO

Illumous wrote: »

The moment you say nerf BoL, this becomes a nerf Templar thread. I've been playing Templar since early beta and I'm sick of Templars being nerfed without proper buffs to compensate. How about before we cry nerf on BoL, we fix all our broken skills first, make our worthless ones better or replace them (I miss you Blinding Flashes), give us competitive passives like other classes, and give us some good CCs instead of skills that hand out free CC immunity (get rid of that knockback on Jabs ZOS).

Once we get that all ironed out, then lets talk about BoL changes again. It never helps to take one step forward, then two steps back like we've been doing with Templars as far back as I can remember (starting with Restoring Spirit no longer returning Magicka in Beta and more recently with Blazing Spear's DoT nerf).

Even though templars are the weakest class in the game, breath of life spam in large groups is a broken mechanic that needs to be fixed. Just because templars suck does not mean that something that is broken overpowered about them shouldnt be fixed. They need buffs in the right places, and changes to breath of life so that its not brainless and overpowered.

Joy_Division

Stop listening to FENGRUSH when it comes to Templars and healing. Many people on these forums have repeatedly explained why his complaints are the product of a lazy DPS who does not want to use the anti-healing tools in the game and wants to kill players while ignoring the people healing them.

I can tell from what you write that you do not heal much in PvP or at least you do not look at your combat logs very often. If you did, you would know that you proposal to Rushed Ceremony has basically eliminated that skill as group heal and just forced every healer in the game to equip the crummy restoration staff just like gimped Dragonknights.

The vast majority of "big" breath of life heals cast in Cyrodiil heal roughly for only 7-8K and the two little ones that you want to serve as raid heals do half that, which will keep zero people alive. It takes a very specific set of circumstances to pull out a 15K heal: target must be at low health, must be inside a purifying ritual, the templar must crit, the templar must have high spell damage (difficult with a resto staff), and both need decent CP point investment in healing/healing received.

Most of the other changes you propose are actually quite good. But it sounds like you have been watching too many of FENGRUSH's streams and want to turn the Templar into a DPS spec that doesn't have to use any actual tactics or build diversity to counter healing.

Dovahmiim

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stop listening to FENGRUSH when it comes to Templars and healing. Many people on these forums have repeatedly explained why his complaints are the product of a lazy DPS who does not want to use the anti-healing tools in the game and wants to kill players while ignoring the people healing them.

I can tell from what you write that you do not heal much in PvP or at least you do not look at your combat logs very often. If you did, you would know that you proposal to Rushed Ceremony has basically eliminated that skill as group heal and just forced every healer in the game to equip the crummy restoration staff just like gimped Dragonknights.

The vast majority of "big" breath of life heals cast in Cyrodiil heal roughly for only 7-8K and the two little ones that you want to serve as raid heals do half that, which will keep zero people alive. It takes a very specific set of circumstances to pull out a 15K heal: target must be at low health, must be inside a purifying ritual, the templar must crit, the templar must have high spell damage (difficult with a resto staff), and both need decent CP point investment in healing/healing received.

Most of the other changes you propose are actually quite good. But it sounds like you have been watching too many of FENGRUSH's streams and want to turn the Templar into a DPS spec that doesn't have to use any actual tactics or build diversity to counter healing.

Actually I had this idea long before I even knew who FENGRUSH was. His criticisms of BoL are at times incorrect, as I believe he has suggested nerfing the actual strength of the heal. You seem to be under the impression the people/groups taking on groups in pvp don't already use heal debuffs and target healer. I spam Dark Flare on large groups in pvp more than anyone else currently in game I would wager, this is not the issue. You are implying that people attacking a group with a healer should always focus the healer, ie. have coordinated attack against one player, while this healer has absolutely no need to exert the same effort for an equivalent heal. They do not need to focus a player, they don't even need to know where they are... perhaps I didn't make this clear enough in my post (apologies), it is primarily the smart heal aspect that I feel is too broken. If you can think of a way for Templars to be able to retain maybe 60-70% of their current effectiveness in healing allies, with a more skilled, aware, well positioned playstyle, I am all ears. At this point, the SMART HEAL mechanic, in combination with the high strength heal ally function of BoL makes it blatantly OP as a group tool. I would know, I have been group PvP healing for as long as I can remember, and am well aware of how much I am healing people for.

I disagree very much with a lot of what FENGRUSH says about the Templar class in general, I try to focus on suggesting proactive skill changes, ie. something that isn't just "heal for [x] amount" and more like Blazing Shield or Blinding Flashes. Those 2 skills, with appropriate functioning for the current state of the game, would be all the Templar class would need to become as competitive in 1v1 and 1vX as NB or Sorc... minus the escape. So yeah, I have no intentions of turning the Templar in to a DPS spec, strange considering that is what I play in PvP.

Dovahmiim

timidobserver wrote: »

Eclipse: We'll use the old version of Drain Essence as a proof of concept that it can be done and that it destroy the game's performance, but the cool down shouldn't be as obnoxiously long as that one was.

IMO, you shouldn't be able to break free of eclipse. It just has a wait period in between applications. I envision it as an extremely tactical skill that you can apply once every x seconds.

Rushed Ceremony: Nah to it only affecting PvP. It isn't about PvE or PvP. I don't know any other way to say it. You are acting as if I am against nerfing Templar healing. I could care less about that much of it. I just want more in exchange for it than you are offering in your suggestions. This is a thread that Gina Bruno requested and you can find a lot of examples of buffs in this thread of things the Templar community would like to see happen with the class, including my own post. templar issues thread

It is purely about equal trade-offs not PvE or PvP. I am not in favor of a compensating us for a huge nerf to BoL by replacing an already crap skill that I would never use with what sounds like a slightly less crap one that I'd probably still never use. There shouldn't have to be a trade off to get the garbage that is healing ritual made useful anyway.

In exchange for a massive nerf to BoL, I would want buff(s) survivability, dps, mobility, escape, and/or cc(not all of those things but some of them) not more healing. For example, we are the only class that doesn't have a single immobilize in our class skills. Every other class has at least two different skills that apply some form of it. We don't have a single AoE/cone CC at all. Every other class has at least one.

Eclipse: Okay, I can definitely see it having its own cool down now, however for such a powerful hard counter to magicka (which in general already has so many hard counters) I see it being far too powerful if unbreakable. It would almost force other magicka class specs to run purge to avoid being completely shut down in 1vX. That was why I suggested having several negative effects if the person affected by the skill chooses to break free, such as minor maim and perhaps another secondary effect. Eclipse already is a VERY tactical skill, I have used it on all my builds since 1.6, and I have always thought that the only issue relating to CC affecting this skill is that if you try to cast on an enemy with immunity, nothing happens but you are still charged the full magicka cost. I've considered every possible way to have it on a separate timer, and I came to the same conclusion as you, if a person affected had to consider breaking free twice every few seconds, it would be broken. So if on a separate immunity timer, there cannot be a break free aspect. But then this ability is just FAR too powerful, especially on a magicka user who is outnumbered. I still can't see it working on a separate timer, sorry

Rushed Ceremony: But here's the thing, I am arguing that an equal trade off would occur, so that our healing effectiveness to allies is reduced by 20-30% against using class skills alone (thus alleviating the "healer" bottleneck somewhat), however to achieve maximum effectiveness while healing, a Templar player must actually use good positioning, and be well aware of his group's positions.

I primarily think it is the convenience of the BoL heal that is OP, it removes ALL elements of skill from healing as a Templar, as the smart heal mechanic literally does all the work. You can heal through basically all group content in game just pressing this one skill... I've done it to test...

I would agree a million times, to make up for our loss in group healing effectiveness (well, at least for healbots with no skill), the Templar would NEED to be given more access to better CC and proactive survival skills, which we actually used to have in the golden days of 1.5. I am not arguing for one change without the other, if Templar wants to be as capable as other classes in 1vX and in general open world PvP, gaining skills that allow them to be more survivable with their current mobility, they cannot remain the unstoppable easymode healbot gods that they are currently.

Dovahmiim

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Even though templars are the weakest class in the game, breath of life spam in large groups is a broken mechanic that needs to be fixed. Just because templars suck does not mean that something that is broken overpowered about them shouldnt be fixed. They need buffs in the right places, and changes to breath of life so that its not brainless and overpowered.

This. We can't realistically expect any changes to come to the right places for the Templar class if we remain the no skill demigod healers we currently are. This thread is about considering changes to Templar on a realistic scope. Make the class ON THE WHOLE a bit more effective, but far more effective for 1vX and defensive capability, which obviously comes with a trade off.

Dovahmiim

Illumous wrote: »

The moment you say nerf BoL, this becomes a nerf Templar thread. I've been playing Templar since early beta and I'm sick of Templars being nerfed without proper buffs to compensate. How about before we cry nerf on BoL, we fix all our broken skills first, make our worthless ones better or replace them (I miss you Blinding Flashes), give us competitive passives like other classes, and give us some good CCs instead of skills that hand out free CC immunity (get rid of that knockback on Jabs ZOS).

Once we get that all ironed out, then lets talk about BoL changes again. It never helps to take one step forward, then two steps back like we've been doing with Templars as far back as I can remember (starting with Restoring Spirit no longer returning Magicka in Beta and more recently with Blazing Spear's DoT nerf).

Why do you people comment without reading my OP?

leepalmer95

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Illumous wrote: »

The moment you say nerf BoL, this becomes a nerf Templar thread. I've been playing Templar since early beta and I'm sick of Templars being nerfed without proper buffs to compensate. How about before we cry nerf on BoL, we fix all our broken skills first, make our worthless ones better or replace them (I miss you Blinding Flashes), give us competitive passives like other classes, and give us some good CCs instead of skills that hand out free CC immunity (get rid of that knockback on Jabs ZOS).

Once we get that all ironed out, then lets talk about BoL changes again. It never helps to take one step forward, then two steps back like we've been doing with Templars as far back as I can remember (starting with Restoring Spirit no longer returning Magicka in Beta and more recently with Blazing Spear's DoT nerf).

Why do you people comment without reading my OP?

They see the word 'nerf' then get super defensive.

BossTuggles

As a templar pvp healer. BoL is too strong. With little to no sp dmg i routinely heal 11-13 k outide of the rune and the cleanse. Without having to target or really even be near the person. Hell in pve i tank/heal everything in game with only BoL.

Joy_Division

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stop listening to FENGRUSH when it comes to Templars and healing. Many people on these forums have repeatedly explained why his complaints are the product of a lazy DPS who does not want to use the anti-healing tools in the game and wants to kill players while ignoring the people healing them.

I can tell from what you write that you do not heal much in PvP or at least you do not look at your combat logs very often. If you did, you would know that you proposal to Rushed Ceremony has basically eliminated that skill as group heal and just forced every healer in the game to equip the crummy restoration staff just like gimped Dragonknights.

The vast majority of "big" breath of life heals cast in Cyrodiil heal roughly for only 7-8K and the two little ones that you want to serve as raid heals do half that, which will keep zero people alive. It takes a very specific set of circumstances to pull out a 15K heal: target must be at low health, must be inside a purifying ritual, the templar must crit, the templar must have high spell damage (difficult with a resto staff), and both need decent CP point investment in healing/healing received.

Most of the other changes you propose are actually quite good. But it sounds like you have been watching too many of FENGRUSH's streams and want to turn the Templar into a DPS spec that doesn't have to use any actual tactics or build diversity to counter healing.

Actually I had this idea long before I even knew who FENGRUSH was. His criticisms of BoL are at times incorrect, as I believe he has suggested nerfing the actual strength of the heal. You seem to be under the impression the people/groups taking on groups in pvp don't already use heal debuffs and target healer. I spam Dark Flare on large groups in pvp more than anyone else currently in game I would wager, this is not the issue. You are implying that people attacking a group with a healer should always focus the healer, ie. have coordinated attack against one player, while this healer has absolutely no need to exert the same effort for an equivalent heal. They do not need to focus a player, they don't even need to know where they are... perhaps I didn't make this clear enough in my post (apologies), it is primarily the smart heal aspect that I feel is too broken. If you can think of a way for Templars to be able to retain maybe 60-70% of their current effectiveness in healing allies, with a more skilled, aware, well positioned playstyle, I am all ears. At this point, the SMART HEAL mechanic, in combination with the high strength heal ally function of BoL makes it blatantly OP as a group tool. I would know, I have been group PvP healing for as long as I can remember, and am well aware of how much I am healing people for.

I disagree very much with a lot of what FENGRUSH says about the Templar class in general, I try to focus on suggesting proactive skill changes, ie. something that isn't just "heal for [x] amount" and more like Blazing Shield or Blinding Flashes. Those 2 skills, with appropriate functioning for the current state of the game, would be all the Templar class would need to become as competitive in 1v1 and 1vX as NB or Sorc... minus the escape. So yeah, I have no intentions of turning the Templar in to a DPS spec, strange considering that is what I play in PvP.

FENGRUSH's criticisms of BoL are specious, not incorrect. To be specific it's barrier/purge spam he doesn't like and not so much the strength of the heal that bothers him (although he isn't happy about it) it is the "smart" aspect, that is, a player without understanding the situation can mash a button and just happen to heal someone 20 meters away without knowing about it. Had he articulated his complaints as such instead of claiming BoL was "bugged," I would be more understanding of where he is coming from, but the reality is there is so much damage flying around Cyrodiil - much more than actual "healing" can keep pace with (i.e. barrier/purge spam is not "healing") - that BoL needs to be able to work as it does to be competitive. As it as a DPS spec worth their salt can out-damage a BoL spammer.

When you convince ZoS to get rid of animation canceling and reintroduce soft caps which has made instant-burst DPS out of control and make it so using a resto staff doesn't tank your spellpower, then I'll begin to suggest ways to make healing more "skilled" as you put it. High damage is instant, healing has to be instant to. And, if ZoS is actually serious about nerfing the barrier and purge cap to the point where they are not spammable options, the you and FENGRUSH and everyone else that hoped aboard the anti-healing bandwagon are going to find out real quick that it was never Templars spamming BoL that kept raids alive.

I'm all for having making the other templar skills like blazing shield and the old blinding flashes actually semi-efficient again as you suggest. But BoL is not "blatantly OP."

Ishammael

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH's criticisms of BoL are specious, not incorrect. To be specific it's barrier/purge spam he doesn't like and not so much the strength of the heal that bothers him (although he isn't happy about it) it is the "smart" aspect, that is, a player without understanding the situation can mash a button and just happen to heal someone 20 meters away without knowing about it. Had he articulated his complaints as such instead of claiming BoL was "bugged," I would be more understanding of where he is coming from, but the reality is there is so much damage flying around Cyrodiil - much more than actual "healing" can keep pace with (i.e. barrier/purge spam is not "healing") - that BoL needs to be able to work as it does to be competitive. As it as a DPS spec worth their salt can out-damage a BoL spammer.

When you convince ZoS to get rid of animation canceling and reintroduce soft caps which has made instant-burst DPS out of control and make it so using a resto staff doesn't tank your spellpower, then I'll begin to suggest ways to make healing more "skilled" as you put it. High damage is instant, healing has to be instant to. And, if ZoS is actually serious about nerfing the barrier and purge cap to the point where they are not spammable options, the you and FENGRUSH and everyone else that hoped aboard the anti-healing bandwagon are going to find out real quick that it was never Templars spamming BoL that kept raids alive.

I'm all for having making the other templar skills like blazing shield and the old blinding flashes actually semi-efficient again as you suggest. But BoL is not "blatantly OP."

Y'all need to carefully read what Joy has written here. Especially the point about BoL not being the skill which keeps raids alive. When I see enemy group healers spamming BoL I know I have already won the fight. This anti-healing bandwagon is ridiculous.

The group toolkit is the following:
1. Barrier + purge
2. Purifying ritual --> Repentence
3. Vigor xN
4. Healing springs + Blessing of Restoration
5. Individual player shields (magicka) or miss chance (evasaion)

Fights are typically over in less than 10s -- BoL is simply not that important in that time frame.