A fact about skill spamming.

nordsavage

Here it is. With five skills per line and five slots per bar you are very limited in how much variety you have in a fight. Everyone casts a few buffs then cycles 2-3 of the abilities repeatedly. We have no choice. I was dueling in the sewers and the best way to phrase this came to me after he accused me of just spamming wrecking blow and execute. Now apply this to the few direct damage skills per line per class, I said "Wrecking blow is the bread and butter of the stamina build and all there is to eat is bread and butter". His messages stopped immediately. So may I recommend easing up on the spamming/nerf threads before we all end up fighting with sticks and rocks. Maybe someday they will expand on the skill lines by adding more than the default five or more morphs. Until then grab your butter knives.

eNumbra

No. I demand you put 5 arbitrary and different skills on your other bar and cycle through them just for the sake of it not being spamming. Everyone must use at least 3 skills before returning to a previous skill.

I'm am PvP lord(e ya ya ya) and my commands are law.







Seriously though, there is absolutely and issue with Ambush - it needs a minimum distance, but yeah. with 12 slots total, and many skills being very situational there's never going to be a ton of variety.

Alcast

Simple, let them QQ

Malmai

Man people always find things to vine and Nerf, but nobody listens to people who want to help this game its just endless cycle of crying everyday, but nobody knows this is only bad for the game/classes/people...

ontheleftcoast

Not saying your wrong but you might want to consider doing some light attack weaving. Building up your ultis quickly is fairly important, especially in PvP and light attacks are a reliable way to do it. But, yeah, the way WB is currently designed if you're running 2H you'd be a fool not to use it early and often. Or as they say, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

zornyan

I would rather toggles had a seperate section on a seperate bar, or only need to be single slotted, or at least only needing skills on one bar to be used.

To get decent regen and max magicka my templar needs
Inner light
Repentence

So to get the full effects I need to use up 4 of my 10 skip slots.

Plus as a healer I'm asked to run or need to run

Repentance
Spear shards
Combat prayer
Blessing of protection
Elemental drain
Radiant destruction
BoL
Rapid regen
Channeled focus
Purifying ritual
Healing Springs
Purifying light

TequilaFire

If you come up against player spamming a skill me thinks you should come up with defense for said skill and spam it back.
Oh wait forgot the need for QQ.

Lord-Otto

It's less an issue that you do it, but more that you CAN do it.
Look at magicka Dragonknights, for example:

You claim Wrecking Blow is your stamina bread and butter spam dps skill. It's true, actually. But compare this to the mag DK's Flame Lash. This is our bread and butter. And what do we get in comparison? Less damage that is even easier mitigated by CPs and harder to raise because it's magicka. Arguably less range, as WB's hit detection is miraculous. WB has a knockdown AND hefty stun (which often ignores cc immunity)... Flame Lash'es knockdown got removed for PvP. Flame Clench'es cc got removed. WB empowers itself on every cast... Flame Lash needs at least one different skill to get empowered and it only gets that buff after the second cast. WB is hardly dodgeable and blocking sucks a lot of stamina (too much for mag chars), Flame Lash got its undogeable hit detection removed. Okay, WB can have a casting time of 0.8 seconds, but animation cancel. And Flame Lash has an animation and the global cooldown. Also, WB delivers high burst damage, very important for PvP, something that magicka DKs lack completely.
And then comes the rest of the skill line... You get your buff, you get your heal, you get your execution and your gap closer and your weapon damage out of that skill line. Magicka DKs get none of that from their class skills and have to cycle through various unsatisfying substitute skill lines to get close, but even then never getting an execution.

So, yes, it is annoying that you can spam that skill over and over. Because other people HAVE to slot 5 arbitrary skills to do the same.
I don't think WB should be nerfed into the ground, but it should actually do what it is supposed to do, bring the spammable dps. That dps should be on par with the other spam skills. And the cc component of WB needs to go. You should be forced to slot an additional cc ability like everyone else.

daemonios

zornyan wrote: »

I would rather toggles had a seperate section on a seperate bar, or only need to be single slotted, or at least only needing skills on one bar to be used.

To get decent regen and max magicka my templar needs
Inner light
Repentence

So to get the full effects I need to use up 4 of my 10 skip slots.

Plus as a healer I'm asked to run or need to run

Repentance
Spear shards
Combat prayer
Blessing of protection
Elemental drain
Radiant destruction
BoL
Rapid regen
Channeled focus
Purifying ritual
Healing Springs
Purifying light

You most definitely don't need Magelight to heal. I've healed everything up to vICP at VR16 without it. Repentance only needs to be on one bar. You have far too many heals, I make do with BoL and rapid regen (pure heals), purifying circle (also boosts heals within its area) and combat prayer (gives DDs a buff AND also heals). I have room for spears and ele drain a couple dps skills, and repentance (only if I have stamina DDs in the group).

And you forgot Mystic Orbs

Alucardo

I really don't mind it. It's the spamming of broken skills that's the problem (ie: things that go through roll dodge, unbreakable CCs, gap closers that cause you to lose control of your character).
People can spam surprise attack, wrecking blow, jabs, whatever they want, I don't care. It's better than other MMOs where you have to manage 1,500 different abilities with cool downs.

zornyan

daemonios wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

I would rather toggles had a seperate section on a seperate bar, or only need to be single slotted, or at least only needing skills on one bar to be used.

To get decent regen and max magicka my templar needs
Inner light
Repentence

So to get the full effects I need to use up 4 of my 10 skip slots.

Plus as a healer I'm asked to run or need to run

Repentance
Spear shards
Combat prayer
Blessing of protection
Elemental drain
Radiant destruction
BoL
Rapid regen
Channeled focus
Purifying ritual
Healing Springs
Purifying light

You most definitely don't need Magelight to heal. I've healed everything up to vICP at VR16 without it. Repentance only needs to be on one bar. You have far too many heals, I make do with BoL and rapid regen (pure heals), purifying circle (also boosts heals within its area) and combat prayer (gives DDs a buff AND also heals). I have room for spears and ele drain a couple dps skills, and repentance (only if I have stamina DDs in the group).

And you forgot Mystic Orbs

Oh I know, it was more a point of thst toggles should only need one slot, as imo magelight is important for the crit rating.

My list was more all the things people have asked me to run.

Also I agree repentence should only be on one bar, but my point was that it should give the regen buffs to both bars, bar space is very limited as it is, toggles really chew into that heaviliy, and the idea you have to double slot other skills to recieve passive regen is absured.

TheShadowScout

Just weave some light or heavy attack between your wrecking blows...

The problem isn't skill spamming, the problem is that WB is a bit too much sometimes. Some builds have no choice but rely on one skill or two... though I wouldn't mind if more skills got the "streaker" treatment and increased in cost if used repeatedly... to get paople at least alternate two skills or something.

Forestd16b14_ESO

5 slots ? WB and executioner the "bread and butter" of stamina builds ? OK first of get your facts straight before posting please. Characters have 10 slots 2 bars with 5 slots each for skills they want. Second there are plenty of other stamina based skills that are extremely good and powerful to use in this game it's that WB is the easiest and cheapest spam skill there is. Third don't assume all stamina user are exactly like you. Some stamina users worked hard to be exactly not like players like you wrecking blow spammers. Forth you could always do oh I don't know light and heavy attacks with your weapon you know. Lastly there are other weapons int he game beside a two-handed great sword. Use a sword and shield or duel wielding that isn't steel tornado spam.

But never say how stamina user only have WB and executioner because that is completely false.

eNumbra

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

[...]

But never say how stamina user only have WB and executioner because that is completely false.

Found the lethal arrow spammer.




A joke btw, so you can relax before you set your tirade upon me as well.

clayandaudrey_ESO

TequilaFire wrote: »

If you come up against player spamming a skill me thinks you should come up with defense for said skill and spam it back.
Oh wait forgot the need for QQ.

QQ is the skill that is spammed back.

Jura23

Spam WB? Go ahead, make my day.

Molag_Crow

Good point, OP.

As annoying as WB is, there's not much effective variety for the Stamina builds, so... I understand why, but it won't change my stand on it, as I'll always hate WB.

Xeniph

eNumbra wrote: »

No. I demand you put 5 arbitrary and different skills on your other bar and cycle through them just for the sake of it not being spamming. Everyone must use at least 3 skills before returning to a previous skill.

I'm am PvP lord(e ya ya ya) and my commands are law.







Seriously though, there is absolutely and issue with Ambush - it needs a minimum distance, but yeah. with 12 slots total, and many skills being very situational there's never going to be a ton of variety.

But make damn sure you take a lot of time between those skills, otherwise the targets complain about macros LOL

Tankqull

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Not saying your wrong but you might want to consider doing some light attack weaving. Building up your ultis quickly is fairly important, especially in PvP and light attacks are a reliable way to do it. But, yeah, the way WB is currently designed if you're running 2H you'd be a fool not to use it early and often. Or as they say, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

than you are a f***ing macro spammer

Lenikus

I'm also a Professional PvP'er
I stand by my Ambush+CamoHunter+SoulHarvest+lightAttack+Bash+SurpriseAttack macro'd combo from stealth.
you guys in the groups need to ditch that spammy BoL healer and that Spammy Steel Tornado that detects me when i'm close. I want to keep killing you with what feels like one-shots that take 0.7 seconds and such.

Sithisvoid

Okay i won't spam my ambush I'll use wrecking blow instead it hits twice as hard. Better?

dday3six

eNumbra wrote: »

...there is absolutely and issue with Ambush - it needs a minimum distance...

The issue is more nuanced, and it's prevalent with all gap closers. Because of the stun they all have, if more than one person gap closes a player repeatedly. There is a high likelihood they'll stunlock that player until you're dead. Adding a minium distance to Teleport and it's morphs or just Ambush will not change that.

Ambush is more commonly used in this manner because it self buffs on consecutive use. Empower's an issue with both Ambush and Wrecking Blow and it shouldn't apply to itself, simple as that.

Now this has become an issue recently because of the dodge roll and block changes in IC. Before the response to this tactic was to roll and line of sight your attackers and/or block will trying to stabilize. That's not a viable option anymore for most builds.

I personally think the right approach is to add another kind of CC immunity that is shorter (3-4s) and only applies to stuns from gap closers and attacks from stealth.

eliisra

The general design idea is probably that you have one skill for main single target, one cc, one AoE, the gap closer and one finisher. Something like that, rest buffs, utility and heals.

But in both PvP and PvE you have skills good enough to fill several of these functions and working surprisingly well doing so, like only using Ambush for both unintended cc, teleport and single target dps in PvP. It's a fricken' gap closer...
Wrecking Blow having both mid-range, high dmg almost comparable to execute and cc component. Only spamming BoL for heal and not bothering slotting AoE healing and HoT's. AoE like Steel Tornado or Proxi being used as both single- and multi target dps and such. That's where a lot of the qq spam is coming from.

To many crappy skills, not filling their main purpose. To many good skills, with multiple functions.

eNumbra

dday3six wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

...there is absolutely and issue with Ambush - it needs a minimum distance...

The issue is more nuanced, and it's prevalent with all gap closers. Because of the stun they all have, if more than one person gap closes a player repeatedly. There is a high likelihood they'll stunlock that player until you're dead. Adding a minium distance to Teleport and it's morphs or just Ambush will not change that.

Ambush is more commonly used in this manner because it self buffs on consecutive use. Empower's an issue with both Ambush and Wrecking Blow and it shouldn't apply to itself, simple as that.

Adding a minimum distance for Ambush will lengthen the amount of time - or prevent the consecutive over use from a single player.

Will this fix the issue of multiple attackers? No, but I don't see multiple attackers continually stunning a single victim as an issue. Unless you're talking about multiple stuns in very quick succession that prevents a player from being able to break or do anything before dying in a couple of seconds - that would be as much an issue with how stun and hard ccs work.

But I could be off the mark, I took a break from PvP some time back I'll have to defer.

BRogueNZ

Spaming's ok as long as it isn't a heal ..apparently

UltimaJoe777

I have 3 characters that run 2h, only 1 of them runs WB. I have an Archer, he will run Snipe. I do not, however, rely entirely on those 2 skills. They have the highest base damage in the game barring Ultimates and that is what makes them such a crutch skill to so many, among other things. Comfort zones are comfortable I suppose lol

altemriel

nordsavage wrote: »

Here it is. With five skills per line and five slots per bar you are very limited in how much variety you have in a fight. Everyone casts a few buffs then cycles 2-3 of the abilities repeatedly. We have no choice. I was dueling in the sewers and the best way to phrase this came to me after he accused me of just spamming wrecking blow and execute. Now apply this to the few direct damage skills per line per class, I said "Wrecking blow is the bread and butter of the stamina build and all there is to eat is bread and butter". His messages stopped immediately. So may I recommend easing up on the spamming/nerf threads before we all end up fighting with sticks and rocks. Maybe someday they will expand on the skill lines by adding more than the default five or more morphs. Until then grab your butter knives.

they could expand the skill bars more that there will be more than just 5 skills on one bar, I would love to put even more skills on one bar, but I just can`t...

acw37162

zornyan wrote: »

I would rather toggles had a seperate section on a seperate bar, or only need to be single slotted, or at least only needing skills on one bar to be used.

To get decent regen and max magicka my templar needs
Inner light
Repentence

So to get the full effects I need to use up 4 of my 10 skip slots.

Plus as a healer I'm asked to run or need to run

Repentance
Spear shards
Combat prayer
Blessing of protection
Elemental drain
Radiant destruction
BoL
Rapid regen
Channeled focus
Purifying ritual
Healing Springs
Purifying light

My personal opinion about toggles;

You should be able to dual slot it for its current effect.

You should be able to single bar a toggle and when you switch bars you have "x" seconds to switch back or you loose the buff.

There should also be a passive in the mages guild or champion point tree that allows you to extend the time.

nordsavage

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

I have 3 characters that run 2h, only 1 of them runs WB. I have an Archer, he will run Snipe. I do not, however, rely entirely on those 2 skills. They have the highest base damage in the game barring Ultimates and that is what makes them such a crutch skill to so many, among other things. Comfort zones are comfortable I suppose lol

Let me come at you like this. I am a stam DK farming TV in the sewers. I have two bars. One is aoe and one is single target. The aoe bar is Igneous Shield, Whirlwind, Volatile Armor, Evil Hunter and Green Dragon Blood. The single target bar is Rally, Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Fossilize, and Echoing Vigor. Now stay with me here. I have one bar dedicated to clearing aoe mobs. The other bar is used to do high single target dps and is the bar I will use to defend myself vs. other players. The single target bar has 3/5 skills for two handed and one is a buff. Where is the room for variation. You say crutch and I say what choice is there. PvP and PvE players never seem to see the opposite side of the coin.