How about to combine the Glyph of Bashing with the Glyph of Shielding?

Reif

I want to talk about bash damage enchantment.

I don't see it viable neither in pvp nor in pve. So I want to suggest an idea. How about to combine the Glyph of Bashing (Increase Bash Damage) with the Glyph of Shielding (Reduce cost of Bash and reduce cost of Blocking)?

For example, there are some builds that uses medium armor, one-handed and shield puncture skill, light attacks and bashes with animation cancelling and as a result shows quite good damage output. This change will not make them stronger, because pure weapon damage glyphs will still be a better choice in terms of dps. But this change will help more tankier builds (in 5/7 heavy armor, for example) to have an option. This will keep them relying on blocking but in the meantime it will provide some extra damage from bashes.

Because no one is using separate bash damage glyphs right now.

I don't think it will be overpowered. The value of bash damage increase can be tweaked anytime. I see this from the heavy armor perspective, and I think it can't do any harm in terms of balance.

So, what are your thoughts about this? Do you think it's a good idea or not?

Soris

No, the Glyph of Bashing should stay that way as it is now.

Glyph of Shielding has the reduced cost of bash and block, Glyph of Bashing has the increased dmg on bash.

If you combine them in one single glyph you will most likely broke the game.

If the devs gone mad one day and make it happen, then same thing should include for spell power/cost reduction and weap power/cost reduction glyphs.

NoMoreChillies

Bash used to be viable, but whiners ruined it

Forestd16b14_ESO

No, the Glyph of Bashing should stay that way as it is now.

You clearly weren't here during the "bash of doom" era.

Forestd16b14_ESO

No, the Glyph of Bashing should stay that way as it is now.

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Bash used to be viable, but whiners ruined it

You mean when bashing could fire at 1000 RPM and could kill in 3 or 4 hits? Back when it was more broken than Sheogoraths mind.

hrothbern

No, it's a bad idea, but the Glyph of Bashing should be changed in some other way.

If you want to increase the damage of shield bashing the Glyph of Bashing delivers slightly more damage than a Glyph of increaseds Weapon Damage.
But increased Weapon Damage is also effective for other abilities.
So... the Glyph of Bashing is also imo currently pretty useless.

Combined with the Glyph of Shielding, it makes bash weaving from tanky/blocking builds more suited for bursting Damage: for short encounters in PVE to save time of the fights and for the kill in PVP.
But I believe that tanks should not have much damage unless they specifically invest in damage at the expense of their defense.

Combining would combine a more damage Glyph to an already very defensive Glyph. That is conceptual not right and practical not wise and leads all to easily to OP effects.

So as simple solution I would rather see that the damage of the Glyph of Bashing is increased to make this unused Glyph viable again.

But the imo most elegant way to improve the Glyph of Bashing is to add a soft CC to it like a 50% snare for 2 seconds.

NoMoreChillies

hrothbern wrote: »

But I believe that tanks should not have much damage unless they specifically invest in damage at the expense of their defense.

Currently DPS can do the opposite, so why gimp tanks?

Xsorus

Soris wrote: »

Glyph of Shielding has the reduced cost of bash and block, Glyph of Bashing has the increased dmg on bash.

If you combine them in one single glyph you will most likely broke the game.

If the devs gone mad one day and make it happen, then same thing should include for spell power/cost reduction and weap power/cost reduction glyphs.

Umm those setups are in no way comparable to bash cost and bash damage increase.

Reif

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You clearly weren't here during the "bash of doom" era.

Actually, I was.

There are no more pure bash builds out there. But the thing is, bash damage glyphs are useless now. Even if bash damage glyphs will be buffed, in terms of damage weapon damage glyphs will still be a better option.

My point is:
1) If bash glyphs will stay with the current damage, nobody will use them.
2) If we will slightly buff the damage of that glyphs, still nobody will use them, because weapon damage glyphs will still be better.
3) If we significantly buff the damage of that glyphs, we will have one button no skill bash builds, that everybody will hate again.

So, what do we have to do with that glyph?

hrothbern wrote: »

Combined with the Glyph of Shielding, it makes bash weaving from tanky/blocking builds more suited for bursting Damage: for short encounters in PVE to save time of the fights and for the kill in PVP.
But I believe that tanks should not have much damage unless they specifically invest in damage at the expense of their defense.

I disagree. For burst/dps purposes weapon damage glyph is much better. Have in mind that there is no more possibility for tanky builds to outsustain your opponents. So, there is no point in being a tin can at the moment. And shielding glyph is not so strong, since we don't have stamina regen while blocking.

In my opinion, it's like:
- we have weapon damage glyphs (for the best damage)
- we have stamina regen/reduce cost glyphs (for the best sustain)
- we can have bash damage + reduced cost of bash and blocking glyphs (for the medium damage and medium sustain) - which will be especially useful with heavy armor because it's lack of damage and predisposition to blocking.

There is no point in wearing heavy armor now. Because you don't have the damage with it to have the chance to kill someone. The resource management is so good nowadays that it's all about damage. And if you can't kill, it doesn't matter how tanky you are - you will be dead. If you go with full weapon damage glyphs + heavy armor, it doesn't work well either - just put on medium armor and you good to go. So, if we could have bash damage + reduced cost of bash and blocking glyph, we will might have a chance to be competitive and solve the problem with bash damage glyph uselessness at the same time.

hrothbern

No, it's a bad idea, but the Glyph of Bashing should be changed in some other way.

Reif wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You clearly weren't here during the "bash of doom" era.

Actually, I was.

There are no more pure bash builds out there. But the thing is, bash damage glyphs are useless now. Even if bash damage glyphs will be buffed, in terms of damage weapon damage glyphs will still be a better option.

My point is:
1) If bash glyphs will stay with the current damage, nobody will use them.
2) If we will slightly buff the damage of that glyphs, still nobody will use them, because weapon damage glyphs will still be better.
3) If we significantly buff the damage of that glyphs, we will have one button no skill bash builds, that everybody will hate again.

So, what do we have to do with that glyph?

hrothbern wrote: »

Combined with the Glyph of Shielding, it makes bash weaving from tanky/blocking builds more suited for bursting Damage: for short encounters in PVE to save time of the fights and for the kill in PVP.
But I believe that tanks should not have much damage unless they specifically invest in damage at the expense of their defense.

I disagree. For burst/dps purposes weapon damage glyph is much better. Have in mind that there is no more possibility for tanky builds to outsustain your opponents. So, there is no point in being a tin can at the moment. And shielding glyph is not so strong, since we don't have stamina regen while blocking.

In my opinion, it's like:
- we have weapon damage glyphs (for the best damage)
- we have stamina regen/reduce cost glyphs (for the best sustain)
- we can have bash damage + reduced cost of bash and blocking glyphs (for the medium damage and medium sustain) - which will be especially useful with heavy armor because it's lack of damage and predisposition to blocking.

There is no point in wearing heavy armor now. Because you don't have the damage with it to have the chance to kill someone. The resource management is so good nowadays that it's all about damage. And if you can't kill, it doesn't matter how tanky you are - you will be dead. If you go with full weapon damage glyphs + heavy armor, it doesn't work well either - just put on medium armor and you good to go. So, if we could have bash damage + reduced cost of bash and blocking glyph, we will might have a chance to be competitive and solve the problem with bash damage glyph uselessness at the same time.

@Reif , @NoMoreChillies ,

First, to make that clear:
I am a Heavy Armor, capped Armor Resistance, Magicka double S&B NB siphoning tank with 360 CP, that uses Shield Bash weaving wherever possible to increase my damage a little bit. I have 2 Jewelry enchanted with the Glyph of Shielding and one with reduce Magicka costs.
In practice I can do bash weaving in smaller encounters, but never in longer Boss fights or situations with many mobs, because otherwise I run out of Stamina too fast. Too risky.

As Magicka tank, my Weapon Damage is vanilla at 1400. So my Bash attacks do, including the 100% damage increase from the S&B passive, around 1100 Damage, unless I interrupt, then it can go up to 5600 Damage, but this only happens in practice frequently against NPC's and seldom in PVP.
Against NPC's, roaming Orsinium or normal dungeons, with in that situation all Attributes in the stat Magicka, tri-stat Food, tri-stat Armor enchants, 46% crit, my average long duration sustainable DPS is around 8k with 20% from bashing with 1.5-2k DPS. That 1.5-2k bash DPS includes the 10% damage increase of the CP Ritual passive "the Exploiter", the bonus you get for "off-balance" enemies. In a PVP damage burst bash weaving adds approx 1.1-1.2k damage, because you get seldom the bonus for interrupt or off-balance.
The additional damage of the Glyph of Bashing is around 150 for my build, so neglectible. Adding that into Glyph of Shielding is adding a neglectible benefit.

Although Heavy Armor & Tanks and higher Health stat are currently an orphan, a lackluster, I still believe that "just" increasing damage for tanks/HA, in a unspecific way, is conceptual not right.
Improvement is however desperately needed, because the number of HA Tanks is decreasing, because the one stat stack meta builds have not only very high DPS, but also very high HPS !!! And can heal themselves always (always !!!) faster than a Tank can burst damage. And again: that 150 additional bash damage will not change that.

The designed way for a tank to kill them is by a combination of CC, followed by Major Defile (30% less Healing), followed by "all the burst damage" you have. The S&B skill line has the abilities "Shield Charge" (Gap Closer Stun) and "Reverberating Bash" (Stun & Major Defile) to do just that !!!

Once in that situation, bursting the not soo much damage of a tank, it is essential that the enemy does not escape too easy by mobility.
That's why I suggested to change the Glyph of Bashing into a 50% snare.

Another thing is that Major Defile is useless againgst Sorcs, or any build having always Damage Shields up. Meaning that again, you stand no chance at all.
The relative combat strength of Damage Shield builds has gone up over the past 2 years and the HA S&B Tank has gotten no attention from the devs, in that same period, to stay viable.
Here I would suggest that the small Shield Bash damage becomes irresistable damage.

EDIT:
Another approach could be that the Glyph of Bashing gives the 50% snare + 500 irresistable damage. And the normal Shield Bash damage does not become irresistable.

NoMoreChillies

i think it would be easier just removing resistance cap and let tanks actually tank. Damage has no cap, heals have no cap.
no point having more snares if the DPS can still out heal your damage.
Irresistable damage would seem fun.