Can we Discuss Itemization?

RinaldoGandolphi

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Good morning.

I am hoping to start a quality dialogue here with the devs concerning the current state of itemization in ESO. As it stands right now, there are a few sets in this game that stand so far above the other sets, that using anything else simply doesn't make sense. What this does is actually give us less options for build diversification and results in everyone running around using the same exact sets, wearing the same stuff. I don't think you guys/gals put new sets or a plethora of sets in the game, for 90% of them to be useless, that simply doesn't make sense. in 1.5 there were quite a few different combinations of gear that could be used that was viable. It was clear that build diversity was encouraged. However since the Imperial City release it seems this was overlooked perhaps during all the bustle going on, and it appears its time to go back and re look this before the next update, because scaling all current VR14 sets up to VR16 is not enough, there are still gear combininations in this game that are far better then any other alternatives and for build and gear diversity to exist in this game it needs to be addressed:

Armor and Weapons


1. Hundings Rage and Law of Juilianos - Its not OP, but its simply too good. As a DPS why would you use any other set? To use Hunding's Rage as an example:

the damage equation(If this has changed let me know, I haven't tested it in awhile, but AFAIK its still valid): ( <Weap/Spell Dmg> * 10.46 + <Stam/Mag> ) * COEF. i.e. 1 point of dmg is equivalent to 10 pts of stamina or magicka --> 300 weapon dmg at the bonus for Hundings is ~3000 stamina.

The Bonus from Hunding's Rage 5 piece back in Feb was worth 3000 stamina, no other set in the game gives anywhere close to such a sizable bonus, so why use anything else? Your pretty much required to use this set for anything Stamina DPS related.

Law of JuilanosThen you guys introduced this set for magicka users which in essences does the same exact thing as Hundings...in terms of spell power that bonus is probably worth close to 3k maybe more magicka, no other set in the game gives close to such a large bonus at which point that 5 piece set becomes a requirement for DPS, this in essence reduces the number of end game sets down to a small number thus renders a large majority of current and future sets as not viable.

Maelstrom and Master Weapons - These really shouldn't give any more spell damage or weapon damage then a legendary Weapon or Spell Damage enchant made with a Kuta. Thats a sizable bonus as it is, I will say though that in return some of the bonuses on these weapons should be made better or adjusted such as The Maelstrom Destro Staff and Wall of Elements bonus is just simply not any good, and the Crit Charge bonus on the two handed weapons, and the 387 Weapon/Spell damage bonus of the Maelstrom Axe is just absurd OP and needs adjusted. These rewards should be worth using, but they shouldn't be insanely OP as many of them currently stand. When you make things so powerful like this, you render the rest of your sets you made in the game useless and it stiffles build diversity down to nearly nothing.

The Ravager Set and Briarheart - if Ravager is made VR16 it needs its weapon damage bonus scaled back considerably, 630 weapon damage for 10 secs at gold quality is absurd...that way worse then even Hundings...and Briarheart's weapon damage will need to be scaled back a bit too, but in return Briarheart should give far larger heals to make up for it to make it useable as part of a build.

The Morag Tong set is a prime example of how you guys got a armor bonus right...Your attacks cause the target to take 15% bonus damage from poison attacks for 5 secs

the Morag Tong set is the perfect example of itemization done right.

Another good example is the Soulshine Set. its 5 piece bonus works while channelling or casting a spell with a cast or channel time...its a good situational bonus...these are the kinds of item bonuses you should focus on, not focusing on just upping damage with everything. You have the Champion System cap now, you can control power creep as you see fit there, your gear should be focused on situational bonuses and passive buffs, not flat out damage. Seducer is a good example of a quality passive buff, not a straight damage increase.

2. Jewelry As it stands right now, the only Jewelry in the game worth using is Willpower, Endurance, or Agility. None of the other jewels are worth using. Even if you scale all the previous jewels up to VR16, if the Endurance, Willpower, and Agility sets are left as they are, they will be no reason to use anything else. These sets need to be culled back a bit to allow folks other jewel options in the next update.

Conclusion

This post is not about nerfing even though it appears to be, its about diversity. Do we really want a game where everyone runs around wearing the same exact thing? Do we really want a game where no matter what new DLC comes out, that Hundings and Julianos are still the best sets in the game for DPS. It may not be popular, but im a fan of options, the more options I have the better. Those 2 sets should be good, but they shouldn't be the best DPS sets. They need to cull those sets back and take some of the other sets and put them on par...maybe the choice between Hundings and something else comes down to Crit Change instead of just flat out pure weapon damage. This game desperately needs attention in the itemization department for the games longterm health. The more options we have, the better the game becomes for theorycrafters and casuals alike, along with changing the BOP stuff We could be in for a really good year with this game, but itemiztion needs to be one of the top things on your list...players are crying for more viable gear combinations, and as long as the few clearly heads and shoulders best gear exists in its currentl form, build diversity in this game will continue to suffer for it.

Just my thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to read and I hope you have a great Holliday Season.

Turelus

Have to agree with everything you wrote.

Sadly because we don't have caps the current meta in the game is "stack the most damage" which when only a few sets offer that damage bonus they will become the sets everyone uses.

The only solutions I can see which will stop this are:

• Remove all damage bonuses from items.
• Give all armour sets a bonus to damage at their 5th part, making them all + damage and + random bonus.
• Bring back soft caps or add stacking penalties to encourage use of other armour effects.

Joy_Division

I agree that itemization is pretty bad (and has been since 1.6 launched), but disagree with your individual assessments and proposed solutions.

You are offering the ZoS "solution" of identifying the few sets people actually use and nerf them. Why? All this does is annoy people and leave us with nothing that was wanted in the first place as alternatives. There is zero item sets in the game right now that are "too good." Rather 95% of the loot/items in this game are sub-optimal, boring, or just plain bad that nobody wants ... and now you propose to force us to use them in the name of diversity..

The main culprit is the 5 piece bonuses are too modest, situational, niche, or just poorly thought out to compete with "always on" bonuses that grant spell-weapon power or magicka/stamina. The same is largely true of the undaunted monster sets. Some people make a big deal about farming them, but the only ones that I ever see used are Molag Kena (and even then usually just a 1 piece), engine guardian, and I may occasionally see a bloodspawn (again some people just use the 1 piece). Really, look at some of these bonuses you need to invest 5 pieces in and the accompanying substandard 2,3,4 bonuses that come with them like Torug's Pact (Reduce internal weapon enchantment cooldown by 1 second), Oblivion's foe (increase soul trap damage by 100%), Overwhelmingsurge (small chance to proc a small lightning damage every 6 seconds). That and the "tank" set piece bonuses of +small resistance and +4% healing received just aren't very good.

RinaldoGandolphi

Joy_Division wrote: »

I agree that itemization is pretty bad (and has been since 1.6 launched), but disagree with your individual assessments and proposed solutions.

You are offering the ZoS "solution" of identifying the few sets people actually use and nerf them. Why? All this does is annoy people and leave us with nothing that was wanted in the first place as alternatives. There is zero item sets in the game right now that are "too good." Rather 95% of the loot/items in this game are sub-optimal, boring, or just plain bad that nobody wants ... and now you propose to force us to use them in the name of diversity..

The main culprit is the 5 piece bonuses are too modest, situational, niche, or just poorly thought out to compete with "always on" bonuses that grant spell-weapon power or magicka/stamina. The same is largely true of the undaunted monster sets. Some people make a big deal about farming them, but the only ones that I ever see used are Molag Kena (and even then usually just a 1 piece), engine guardian, and I may occasionally see a bloodspawn (again some people just use the 1 piece). Really, look at some of these bonuses you need to invest 5 pieces in and the accompanying substandard 2,3,4 bonuses that come with them like Torug's Pact (Reduce internal weapon enchantment cooldown by 1 second), Oblivion's foe (increase soul trap damage by 100%), Overwhelmingsurge (small chance to proc a small lightning damage every 6 seconds). That and the "tank" set piece bonuses of +small resistance and +4% healing received just aren't very good.

I don't disagree with you at all Joy, your actually touching on things I didn't want to type out in the post to make it too long.

Take Hundings for example, that Weapon Damage Bonus is = to 3000 stamina, how do you make any other set worth using over Hunding's as a DPS? How do you give other sets a bonus that is worth that much stamina? thats the crux of the issue.

I don't see how you can make other sets viable with ones like Hundings and Law as they are now in the current meta.

I will say bringing back softcaps would allow build diversity to return to this game, as Softcaps would make stacking damage beyond a certain degree not worth it, and this alone would encourage people to branch out to other non damage sets leading us to a game with far more utility and versatility in builds, but I don't think they bring soft caps back, so what do you do?

Understand, im all ear here. I just want more build diversity and more options, I don't care how they do it...even if they leave Hundings and Law alone, they need to make other sets viable alternatives to promote more gear combinations, and we need more jewel combos as well.

Toast_STS

I don't entirely agree. Some of the new sets are niche and don't give you top DPS but they are pretty fun. I feel that most people will follow a cookie cutter build posted online and not take the time to learn how to adapt to and succeed with a new play style with these new sets. Although some of the sets are worthless.

I'm running 5 piece Morkuldin, 2 piece Maw of infernal, 2 Willpower and 2-3 Endurance on my pet sorc build and it's a wicked good time in PvP. I'm on xbox though where competition is lacking so I can get away with it. I'm also running heavy armor and Energy Orb for heals which is currently OP on xbox so I am basically invincible in 1v1. I have no burst damage with this build but it's fun getting 5 summons up at once when most people see me at first and are like "ooh a noob pet build this will be easy". At least that's what I think when I see a sorc with summons up lol.

I'm interested to try out some of the Maelstrom sets on a stam DK I'm leveling up too. Stack butt loads of stamina with a combination of the sets and use molten weapons with a bow for a crazy ranged damage glass cannon build.

However, I think that using the new sets effectively requires lots of champion points allocated effectively.

AfkNinja

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I agree that itemization is pretty bad (and has been since 1.6 launched), but disagree with your individual assessments and proposed solutions.

You are offering the ZoS "solution" of identifying the few sets people actually use and nerf them. Why? All this does is annoy people and leave us with nothing that was wanted in the first place as alternatives. There is zero item sets in the game right now that are "too good." Rather 95% of the loot/items in this game are sub-optimal, boring, or just plain bad that nobody wants ... and now you propose to force us to use them in the name of diversity..

The main culprit is the 5 piece bonuses are too modest, situational, niche, or just poorly thought out to compete with "always on" bonuses that grant spell-weapon power or magicka/stamina. The same is largely true of the undaunted monster sets. Some people make a big deal about farming them, but the only ones that I ever see used are Molag Kena (and even then usually just a 1 piece), engine guardian, and I may occasionally see a bloodspawn (again some people just use the 1 piece). Really, look at some of these bonuses you need to invest 5 pieces in and the accompanying substandard 2,3,4 bonuses that come with them like Torug's Pact (Reduce internal weapon enchantment cooldown by 1 second), Oblivion's foe (increase soul trap damage by 100%), Overwhelmingsurge (small chance to proc a small lightning damage every 6 seconds). That and the "tank" set piece bonuses of +small resistance and +4% healing received just aren't very good.

I don't disagree with you at all Joy, your actually touching on things I didn't want to type out in the post to make it too long.

Take Hundings for example, that Weapon Damage Bonus is = to 3000 stamina, how do you make any other set worth using over Hunding's as a DPS? How do you give other sets a bonus that is worth that much stamina? thats the crux of the issue.

I don't see how you can make other sets viable with ones like Hundings and Law as they are now in the current meta.

I will say bringing back softcaps would allow build diversity to return to this game, as Softcaps would make stacking damage beyond a certain degree not worth it, and this alone would encourage people to branch out to other non damage sets leading us to a game with far more utility and versatility in builds, but I don't think they bring soft caps back, so what do you do?

Understand, im all ear here. I just want more build diversity and more options, I don't care how they do it...even if they leave Hundings and Law alone, they need to make other sets viable alternatives to promote more gear combinations, and we need more jewel combos as well.

Slow chant, "Soft caps, soft caps, soft caps....." pleeeeaaaaasssseeee

Joy_Division

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I agree that itemization is pretty bad (and has been since 1.6 launched), but disagree with your individual assessments and proposed solutions.

You are offering the ZoS "solution" of identifying the few sets people actually use and nerf them. Why? All this does is annoy people and leave us with nothing that was wanted in the first place as alternatives. There is zero item sets in the game right now that are "too good." Rather 95% of the loot/items in this game are sub-optimal, boring, or just plain bad that nobody wants ... and now you propose to force us to use them in the name of diversity..

The main culprit is the 5 piece bonuses are too modest, situational, niche, or just poorly thought out to compete with "always on" bonuses that grant spell-weapon power or magicka/stamina. The same is largely true of the undaunted monster sets. Some people make a big deal about farming them, but the only ones that I ever see used are Molag Kena (and even then usually just a 1 piece), engine guardian, and I may occasionally see a bloodspawn (again some people just use the 1 piece). Really, look at some of these bonuses you need to invest 5 pieces in and the accompanying substandard 2,3,4 bonuses that come with them like Torug's Pact (Reduce internal weapon enchantment cooldown by 1 second), Oblivion's foe (increase soul trap damage by 100%), Overwhelmingsurge (small chance to proc a small lightning damage every 6 seconds). That and the "tank" set piece bonuses of +small resistance and +4% healing received just aren't very good.

I don't disagree with you at all Joy, your actually touching on things I didn't want to type out in the post to make it too long.

Take Hundings for example, that Weapon Damage Bonus is = to 3000 stamina, how do you make any other set worth using over Hunding's as a DPS? How do you give other sets a bonus that is worth that much stamina? thats the crux of the issue.

It's not that hard.

Step 1: Recognize the game has changed and all the old "hybrid" set builds are now undesirable and obsolete.
Step 2: Readjust sets to match current meta
Step 3: Recognize players will generally prefer good "always on" bonuses over the situational unless the situational are very good and happen often enough to convince the user it is helping her (even if under strict mix-max calculus, it doesn't).

Take Torug's Pact:

(2 items) Adds Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds Max Health
(4 items) Adds Spell Resistance
(5 items) Torug's Pact: Reduce weapon enchantment's internal cooldown by 1 second. Increases enchantment potency by 30%.

All those traits are bad except for the first one. Health is bad because nothing in the game scales with it. Spell resistance is bad because it only provides you with like a 2% mitigation value against some attacks and is difficult to further scale (unlike say spell damage). Weapon enchantments are feeble as it is, giving them modest bonuses is like tearing 1 page out of War and Peace and claiming the book is easier to finish reading.

New Torug's Pact:

Step 1: Identify purpose and who would want to wear it. Let's say magicka DPS because the spell damage and 5th trait.

Step 2: Adjust bonuses
(2 items) Spell Damage - this is fine. Keep.
(3 items) Max Health - this is sub-optimal. If we want to diversify sets and have them do more than just add damage, we must make sure utility bonuses are appealing. If this bonus is meant to keep us alive, double the Health bonus and throw a little bonus magicka users would want (such as the +4% healing received bonus)
(4 items) Spell Resistance - This is just bad. We already have a defensive bonus and this is a DPS set so this goes away and instead change it to Adds Max Magicka
(5 items) Weapon enchantment bonus. Terrible. But weapon enchantments are potentially interesting so the idea is good, but how to make it work? Weapon enchantment cooldown IIRC is roughly 5 seconds and they do about 700 damage, they are thus contributing 140 DPS and with the current bonus, it becomes a 230 bonus DPS - congratulations crafter, your 5 piece bonus adds a grand total of 90 DPS! This set bonus has to compete with 300 spell damage, which will further be modified by at least 25%, so really 375 spell damage, which will increase your DPS by hundreds. Set the internal cooldown to 2 or 3 seconds and increase the enchantment by 50%. Under the current system, you'll get about 350 - 500 DPS if you actually proc your weapon enchantment (not everyone does .. overload sorcs for example).

Julianos is probably strictly better because that spell-damage effects everything and is always on, but, maybe some DPS might look at the 3 set bonus and recognize that there is a way to get some of the health she will need anyway and decide they could use the 5th piece bonus, slap on a return magicka enchantment and use that as her method of sustain.

And is ZoS actually ever made weapon enchantments genuinely do interesting things (such as add ultimate, miss chance, movement bonuses, etc) and increased their potency so as to have a perceptible effect (140 DPS is utterly insignificant), then this set all of a sudden becomes something to seriously consider as a viable option over Julianos.

Waffennacht

Best suggestion ever for increasing armor diversity.

Make set abilities researchable and then we can make our own diverse set. Of course some adjustments would be needed to prevent some brokennes but it would go a long way