Temporary Small-Scale PvP Solution - Let's Agree to Make Haderus a Small Scale PvP Zone

BossTuggles

I AM THE LAW! - Rocky Balboa.

Americanfunguy

KenaPKK wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

Why doesn't DiG go to Trueflame where there was a call for more AD guilds to show up, leaving Haderus to the small group and 1vX'ers?

We already made a decision in the middle of summer to be on Haderus and when the issue came up again last month the vote was to stay, we like it there. This is not going to change in for foreseeable future but Friday's are the only night that we bring 50+ to the map. Tonight it did not seem to be an issue, there were some good back forth battles with the reds that were on the server and some interesting 3 ways over some emp keeps.

Because you bulldoze over the other factions with your 1k active members and feel no real opposition.

I can't wait until they remove AoE caps. That farce last night with the 10 people up on the bookcase inside Roe and 30 more running around beneath will not go your way.

Now you automatically think that was DiG's guild because they did something that you would hate. That was a much smaller guild then DiG, Ortus Ignis. But please tell me, why would they nerf teamwork and stacking? Since when was working together a bad thing? When it wipes the enemy group and pisses off the other faction? If that's what pvp is coming to then so be it.

Ernest145

Manoekin wrote: »

Yeah, you're not going to get anywhere with rude and sarcastic remarks. None of you decide Cyrodiil law. If you want to set something up some basic communication and understanding with the parties involved is necessary.

^^^

Americanfunguy

mchermie wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

We already made a decision in the middle of summer to be on Haderus and when the issue came up again last month the vote was to stay, we like it there. This is not going to change in for foreseeable future but Friday's are the only night that we bring 50+ to the map. Tonight it did not seem to be an issue, there were some good back forth battles with the reds that were on the server and some interesting 3 ways over some emp keeps.

You did some incredible balling with your groups inside Roebeck last night, when you were all stacked on the bookshelf

That wasn't DiG

Joy_Division

KenaPKK wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

Why doesn't DiG go to Trueflame where there was a call for more AD guilds to show up, leaving Haderus to the small group and 1vX'ers?

We already made a decision in the middle of summer to be on Haderus and when the issue came up again last month the vote was to stay, we like it there. This is not going to change in for foreseeable future but Friday's are the only night that we bring 50+ to the map. Tonight it did not seem to be an issue, there were some good back forth battles with the reds that were on the server and some interesting 3 ways over some emp keeps.

Because you bulldoze over the other factions with your 1k active members and feel no real opposition.

I can't wait until they remove AoE caps. That farce last night with the 10 people up on the bookcase inside Roe and 30 more running around beneath will not go your way.

Don't hold your breath:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE

*****

In general, I think the PvP atmosphere would be far less toxic if half the energy people spent communicating to their PvP opponents their various displeasures and disappointments - especially in tells right after the fact when emotions are high - in how they chose to play was instead directed as ZoS for its decisions to make the very sort of gameplay you desire ineffective and sub-optimal.

Then again, apparently I am not as optimistic as many of you that you can convince egotistical and competitive people with feelings and memories to restrain themselves from not using the most effective tactics.

Ernest145

Haderus will never be a true small scale campaign as long as larger guilds home there and push for emps, so might as well choose a different campaign if they aren't going to leave.

mchermie

Americanfunguy wrote: »

That wasn't DiG

Any idea who it was then? Was a hell of a large group/several groups

nugelhoffub17_ESO

DiG was there but the actual group on the bookcase was not us.

Psilent

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

Well again the only thing DiG can do is offer up some nights when we run much much smaller, but we have 1k active members so there are time when we will be large, its the nature of things. But ppl are always welcome to talk to me in game on any night and something can be worked out I'm sure. Hopefully we can reach a balance that allows most to have fun.

I have a couple questions for you; if you have 1,000 active members why would you home on one of the least populated campaigns? Why not play on Trueflame and help @Anasasi guild out with your core group of 16?

nugelhoffub17_ESO

We didn't like the lag of other servers when we decided this summer to home on Haderus. We like that Haderus has emp flips, a struggle to win constantly, and good fights.

Galalin

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

We didn't like the lag of other servers when we decided this summer to home on Haderus. We like that Haderus has emp flips, a struggle to win constantly, and good fights.

Ummm struggle to win?
3 bars AD to 1 Bar EP we had like 15 ppl vs 3 bars AD and you call that good fights?

lmao ok

DK SCRUB OUT

nugelhoffub17_ESO

when was this? Often times at night its equal population bars, at least when I look at it. By the struggle to win I mean the points race each week. Red has won more than a few times over the last two months. Idk what to say to make you happy. Sorry.

Galalin

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

when was this? Often times at night its equal population bars, at least when I look at it.

This is right now!!!!

and I seen you this morning with them at Faragut... not that it matters cause there is a scroll there... but3 bars to 1 bar is NOT good fights man.

Edit: im not complaining but It seriously pisses me off how ppl come and cry about zerging and they are the ones zerging 90% of the time. so AD when it happens to you just stfu and take like the rest of us. This does not go for all AD as many of you don't complain when it happens but im very tired of the few who feel the need to /w me to *** about it

DK SCRUB OUT

nugelhoffub17_ESO

You're group wiped us several times at King's, before we managed to break through and I am unsure why Farragut hasn't been taking back, we didn't repair the walls, we don't want those keeps -- just taking them to get the scrolls but we have no plans to hold any of that. As far as population, I cannot control when people are on but not all three bars are running with us, I assure you.

Galalin

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

You're group wiped us several times at King's, before we managed to break through and I am unsure why Farragut hasn't been taking back, we didn't repair the walls, we don't want those keeps -- just taking them to get the scrolls but we have no plans to hold any of that. As far as population, I cannot control when people are on but not all three bars are running with us, I assure you.

Are you blind? there was 15 of us holding you off at kings....like I stated to you before if a ratio of 1v1 doesn't work then you will bring 2v1 and in todays case 4v1 to achieve the desired affect.

This is exactly what you did and no agreement will change that.

And that's ok but don't call it good fights when you outnumber your opponent 4 to 1 my friend

Farra was not taken back because all 15 EP on the map we defending kings

I never said you control the pop nor do I expect you to back off even if you outnumber the hell out of us. what im saying is don't complain when it happens to AD and I don't think there has ever been 3 bars EP to 15 AD.

DK SCRUB OUT

Psilent

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

We didn't like the lag of other servers when we decided this summer to home on Haderus. We like that Haderus has emp flips, a struggle to win constantly, and good fights.

Good fights?!?



Umm ok....

Tovarishh-Holod

You did some incredible balling with your groups inside Roebeck last night, when you were all stacked on the bookshelf [/quote]

That wasn't DIG on the bookshelf, but thanks.

nugelhoffub17_ESO

Well you did a good job of defending and I can respect that. And our group went from 18 when we fought the emp at Aleswell and grew to 25 when we went to King's. It did not grow because we put out any call, just random people seeing us running around and joined it. And if you would actually be serious about small scale and reach out we would honor an agreement. But you refuse to and that's fine. But there is no conspiracy of us calling in 4x your numbers for the sake of doing so and I'm sorry that you think so.

Galalin

Oh and gratz on your emp and s

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

Well you did a good job of defending and I can respect that. And our group went from 18 when we fought the emp at Aleswell and grew to 25 when we went to King's. It did not grow because we put out any call, just random people seeing us running around and joined it. And if you would actually be serious about small scale and reach out we would honor an agreement. But you refuse to and that's fine. But there is no conspiracy of us calling in 4x your numbers for the sake of doing so and I'm sorry that you think so.

screenshot speaks for itself. The map was zerged down and you can't even admit that? Nobody is blaming you in particular. But you can't even admit you were a part of it?

You know its funny how everyone tries to distance themselves from what goes on... Nope we only had 20 some ppl so we didn't zerg but we also failed to notice the other 80 in the 50m radius around us

DK SCRUB OUT

nugelhoffub17_ESO

@Galalin

As far as I've know I have never complained in game or anywhere else about losing to Red or Blue and I don't plan on starting. Things swing in our favor and then back to yours, its the way it works at the moment. I understand the frustration but I've given some ideas on how to lessen that but no one seems serious about it. If anyone does get serious you know where to find me. I am sure Red will have emp by later this afternoon and this will all start over again.

nugelhoffub17_ESO

@Galalin

If you forced me to say how many were at the King's keep fight on our side I would say 35 total AD. And if you're looking for me to say that our numbers contribute to the zerg on the server, then yes it does. That being said I can only control (hopefully) what my group does and I would honestly say that its rare that we purposefully stack up with the pugs running around out there. I am not trying to be rude or start anything as I know that you are not. I think the question is where do we go from here...

OdinForge

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

@Galalin

If you forced me to say how many were at the King's keep fight on our side I would say 35 total AD. And if you're looking for me to say that our numbers contribute to the zerg on the server, then yes it does. That being said I can only control (hopefully) what my group does and I would honestly say that its rare that we purposefully stack up with the pugs running around out there. I am not trying to be rude or start anything as I know that you are not. I think the question is where do we go from here...

We haven't heard much from DC, the faction that initiated this thread. Since GoS, CKA and DiG are the three most active guilds on this thread (at the current point in time) why don't we all get a representative to discuss this in-game or in a TS (no drama, just constructive communication) among guild leads etc.

Haderus has a handful of DC at any given time, the server is typically EP v AD. At the very least we might be able to come to an understanding.

AzraelAcid

OdinForge wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

@Galalin

If you forced me to say how many were at the King's keep fight on our side I would say 35 total AD. And if you're looking for me to say that our numbers contribute to the zerg on the server, then yes it does. That being said I can only control (hopefully) what my group does and I would honestly say that its rare that we purposefully stack up with the pugs running around out there. I am not trying to be rude or start anything as I know that you are not. I think the question is where do we go from here...

This^

We haven't heard much from DC, the faction that initiated this thread. Since GoS, CKA and DiG are the three most active guilds on this thread (at the current point in time) why don't we all get a representative to discuss this in-game or in a TS (no drama, just constructive communication) among guild leads etc.

Haderus has a handful of DC at any given time, the server is typically EP v AD. At the very least we might be able to come to an understanding.

And this^

Hi all, I'm PVP Department Lead for DIG. I'd like to make some clarifications.

1. When we are prime time, that's when you're going to find our biggest numbers. Our prime time is NOT an all day event. It's usually for a few hours on the weekends, until people wind down. So please, bring the fights.

2. Our sister guilds, DUG being one of them, DO have high membership HOWEVER, not all are active at the same time. When Kro's,or myself (we have many more raid leaders, but for the sake of privacy, I'll not mention them here) make the call, that's when we usually get our numbers. They are made up mostly of causal or even new PVP'ers.

3. We are a democracy. We have meetings to discuss PVP performance, the general welfare of our members regarding PVP, what they would like to see, and we vote as a group where to home and guest on available servers. We tried guesting for a few weeks on Azura's and Trueflame. In the former the lag was so god awful that we bailed after 10 minutes. In the latter, there was no one to be found.

4. We believe in fair play. No tea bagging. No gate camping. No exploiting. Non negotiable. We encourage ALL styles of PVP play , including small scale operations during the week. So if you see a bunch of AD running around when most of us are at work, and they are not wearing our tabbard, chances are, it's not us.

5. We get a lot of requests from zone to join us, and most times we decline these requests BECAUSE we don't want to "zerg" the map. We WANT action. We want fights. We know that pushing EP and/or DC back to their gates will kill it. So please, enough with the theatrics that we are a "zerg" on a shelf. Even if it were us, and it wasn't, I would use that tactic if I thought it would win it for us.

Now with all that being said, I'm going to try to be clear without sounding like a b****.

I am polite, respectful, and generally honest to the point of brutality. I expect our members to adhere to representing our guild in a reasonable and "good sportsmanship" manner. Those that can't or won't do that, are removed.

We define ourselves as good by fighting and winning against skilled players. A lot of times we lose.

However, I have an ego. I like to win. I will maneuver and orchestrate whatever tactics I think are necessary to accomplish that goal on the field. I refuse to apologize for that. Any raid leader would do the same.

Please contact Nugelhoff to establish communications and negotiations in an effort to make it fun for everyone. Until we receive word, I'll instruct our raid leaders to do as they see fit within our standards of conduct.

Thanks for the great fights last night. I had a blast.

Rylana

That was... a lot of AD in alessia tonight. Good god.

Rylana

AzraelAcid wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

@Galalin

If you forced me to say how many were at the King's keep fight on our side I would say 35 total AD. And if you're looking for me to say that our numbers contribute to the zerg on the server, then yes it does. That being said I can only control (hopefully) what my group does and I would honestly say that its rare that we purposefully stack up with the pugs running around out there. I am not trying to be rude or start anything as I know that you are not. I think the question is where do we go from here...

This^

We haven't heard much from DC, the faction that initiated this thread. Since GoS, CKA and DiG are the three most active guilds on this thread (at the current point in time) why don't we all get a representative to discuss this in-game or in a TS (no drama, just constructive communication) among guild leads etc.

Haderus has a handful of DC at any given time, the server is typically EP v AD. At the very least we might be able to come to an understanding.

And this^

Hi all, I'm PVP Department Lead for DIG. I'd like to make some clarifications.

1. When we are prime time, that's when you're going to find our biggest numbers. Our prime time is NOT an all day event. It's usually for a few hours on the weekends, until people wind down. So please, bring the fights.

2. Our sister guilds, DUG being one of them, DO have high membership HOWEVER, not all are active at the same time. When Kro's,or myself (we have many more raid leaders, but for the sake of privacy, I'll not mention them here) make the call, that's when we usually get our numbers. They are made up mostly of causal or even new PVP'ers.

3. We are a democracy. We have meetings to discuss PVP performance, the general welfare of our members regarding PVP, what they would like to see, and we vote as a group where to home and guest on available servers. We tried guesting for a few weeks on Azura's and Trueflame. In the former the lag was so god awful that we bailed after 10 minutes. In the latter, there was no one to be found.

4. We believe in fair play. No tea bagging. No gate camping. No exploiting. Non negotiable. We encourage ALL styles of PVP play , including small scale operations during the week. So if you see a bunch of AD running around when most of us are at work, and they are not wearing our tabbard, chances are, it's not us.

5. We get a lot of requests from zone to join us, and most times we decline these requests BECAUSE we don't want to "zerg" the map. We WANT action. We want fights. We know that pushing EP and/or DC back to their gates will kill it. So please, enough with the theatrics that we are a "zerg" on a shelf. Even if it were us, and it wasn't, I would use that tactic if I thought it would win it for us.

Now with all that being said, I'm going to try to be clear without sounding like a b****.

I am polite, respectful, and generally honest to the point of brutality. I expect our members to adhere to representing our guild in a reasonable and "good sportsmanship" manner. Those that can't or won't do that, are removed.

We define ourselves as good by fighting and winning against skilled players. A lot of times we lose.

However, I have an ego. I like to win. I will maneuver and orchestrate whatever tactics I think are necessary to accomplish that goal on the field. I refuse to apologize for that. Any raid leader would do the same.

Please contact Nugelhoff to establish communications and negotiations in an effort to make it fun for everyone. Until we receive word, I'll instruct our raid leaders to do as they see fit within our standards of conduct.

Thanks for the great fights last night. I had a blast.

As the PvP lead for GoS (the largest red guild on haderus on a day to day basis) ill share our perspective on this.

Typically we run anywhere from 6 to 20, usually more around 12-15, but have rolled in full raids at times, like when fighting Vehemence or another really well tuned guild. On a normal Haderus night, since we actually home Azuras and most of us play Had either for smaller groups or for less lag, we start small, 6 or so, and it builds up as more come. Pretty standard. Our allied guild CKA (which contains several GoS members itself) might also have 6-10, maybe a little more or less, and then there might be 10 or so soloers or pickups or random players milling about. On a given night there are probably less than 40 total reds anywhere on the map, the majority of which are GoS or GoS allies.

From what I can tell, DC has about the same total quantity, split into even smaller groups (with one relatively large one containing the "swags" as we have started calling them) DC actually probably has more than EP on at prime, but not by much. Relatively even.

AD, however, outnumbers both combined. between DiG/DuG on your raid nights, OMFG's group, Khaz's group, randoms, guesters, pickups, and the like, we have seen AD masses over easily 70+ sometimes 100. Now granted, they are usually all over the place in manageable chunks 10 here 20 there 10 there, 20 over that way. But you guys in AD have this massive problem with balling all of them together and stacking it 70+ vs 15. Tonight I get it because it was last emp keep, thats to be understood, but its not just in situations like this. We have seen that many defending Arrius before. The whole faction, in a red home keep, with no scrolls in play, just trying to hold it.

This is where I get angry with AD, because as EP has shown, time and again, we dont hold Fare/BB/BM much at all, and if we ever do its to accomplish a goal (getting the scrolls - which by the way we have almost zero interest in, as they dont count for points and the buffs are minor, or dethroning emp by spreading you out and forcing choice)

We dont hold those three keeps, like AD will ours (or DC's). If we have emp, we aggressively defend the ring, we might do some resource plays south out of boredom or change on scenery, but we dont hold that ground. We even have left Roe and Ash in play intentionally while having emp just to promote PvP.

Our goals in Haderus are pretty simple: Good fights in smaller scale, getting people emp that have never had the opportunity or wanted another run since reign might have been cut short, and getting practice/AP vs larger encounters. Most of my raids dont contain many of the core/elite membership, they usually play on Azuras. You will also rarely, if ever, see us running anywhere near 20 unless its last emp keep or about to be. (or when we are trying to crown an emp vs decent resistance, like tonight vs Fengrush and co, I think we had 17 after AD was dethroned)

But when you guys disappear in primetime, only to reappear at 10 in the morning to speed cap zerg emp, take everything on the map, and then aggressively hold it, after all of that pay-it-forward goodwill GoS has tried to adhere to, tempers flare.

Even I get angry with it, because I will be honest with you, we take it easy on Haderus. If we wanted to, that map would be 100 percent red practically all of the time, unless you brought your entire guild to stop us. We could kill the server if we wanted to, but we DONT want to, is the whole point. Not to mention boring. GoS has an almost even mix of US and Australian prime time players, so we can cover all times of day with a sizeable force, we just choose not to and play elsewhere when it is slow.

I just want you to think about that the next time your sending 40+ people in against 10 or less at 10am or something, just trying to clear every single objective for whatever reason (bragging rights? please, at the end of the day GoS doesnt care about end of campaign score very much, on a 7 day the rewards arent worth worrying about).

We are a PvP guild on the hunt for good PvP, tonight was a laggy mess at Alessia and other places, often times fighting over 50 yellows at once. I had no joy with that, nor did our other group leads earlier this morning.

The bottom line is you gotta stop sending multiple raids to the exact same spot every time. We never run multiple raids, and look what we can do.

ks888

I'm usually everyone's DC port to Had anyways, so I'm down. ;-P

nugelhoffub17_ESO

@Rylana

The off hours stuff is not planned. DiG is allied with a Aussie guild that runs in our off hours but we never say lets fold up and get them when they sleep. Today, for example, it was a random thing where we saw the chance to de-emp and get some morale for our side, so our 18-24 took that chance. We ran back the scrolls as well, while I agree with you they are worthless, we did so because we knew tonight it would make for objectives outside the emp ring and some unpredictable fun. While AD may be able to bring 70+ to a particular point on the map at any given time, we as a faction are very unorganized, so it seems like sometimes if we want to flip emp or the like then it has to be at a random time like 10am. Honestly if you want better smaller scale pvp battles, then letting the emp flip in primetime and then coming back in primetime to take it back is the best bet. As long as AD (as a whole) feel like they have a chance through some give and take, the more likely quality PvP play will abound. For many (not necessarily for myself) GoS holding emp and then really really stomping us with the emp in a small group is just as bad as red holding 100% of the map. And that becomes the excuse/war cry "they have emp!". I am pretty sure you guys are strong without it, so I would keep that in mind.

Tonight DiG started out very small and our 8 man group was attempting to have some good fights with Fenir's group but the pugs messed that up for all. When they whispered me I told them we would leave and we did. Not only the keep we were at but the whole server, we only came back when blue started pushing the emp ring. But we are willing to work with the others like GoS to have fun and honestly even if you stomp us in a small group we learn something and that's important to us. In short if you can see your way to letting the emp go at times and taking it back in primetime the following day, I can promise you there will be tons more 8-10 man groups roaming around looking for fights and fun instead of a massive urgent need for AD as a whole to de-emp a red as they see them holding it forever. Also, my hats off to you for not killing the server and we will try to also not kill it.

ScarecrowBoat

Hektik_V wrote: »

nugelhoffub17_ESO wrote: »

Well again the only thing DiG can do is offer up some nights when we run much much smaller, but we have 1k active members so there are time when we will be large, its the nature of things. But ppl are always welcome to talk to me in game on any night and something can be worked out I'm sure. Hopefully we can reach a balance that allows most to have fun.

Why doesn't DiG go to Trueflame where there was a call for more AD guilds to show up, leaving Haderus to the small group and 1vX'ers?

no dont come on trueflame

i hear there are scouting missions to be had on Axe, might want to check there

Rune_Relic

Its interesting watching this whole process go down from an outsiders view (I'm EU)

Its becoming apparent neither group has total control of the population and cant meet the demands desired.
If neither side can manage the pugs (ie non guild players) through zone chat, I cant see you getting very far.

Stragglers will go where the battles are or there is no point to PVP.
If they latch onto a guild they will follow them for the action.

There needs to be some kind of general on each campaign to literally direct and manage the stragglers and pug groups.
Some how you have to not only direct forces where they are needed.....but more importantly...
direct them away from where they are not needed

That will be impossible telling strangers to go elsewhere when the fight is right in front of them.....unless there is a broader concensus on a chain of command that every guild/faction will observe.

Who can possibly be on 24/7 to manage the field of battle for the whole zone ?
We need someone at base that we can report into and ask where we are needed.
Someone has to step up.

Lore_lai

^^ This right here. I dunno why people are surprised when they sometimes see 60 people show up at an encounter, whatever the type.
With no coordination, the battle-pug *will* show up when they see crossed swords or a keep flare up.
And why shouldn't they? Everyone is, after all, in Cyro for the PvP (and the zone-chat drama but that's another thing).

Heck, it's hard even for a small organized group to do anything coordinated because everyone is hush-hush.

On the other hand, I do understand that zone is not the best medium for communication (far from it).
I guess, in the end, it's just a flawed system.