Why stop at 50??

Gaiden'Densetsu

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

Vangy

Basically they are replacing VR levels with the CP system. So once you hit 50, you'd need to start grinding CP (with the catch up mechanic) as a new player. The good news is that these CP "levels" are shared account-wise, so it only needs to be done once. When you start moving on to alts, all you would need to do is finish up the main story and most likely you would hit 50 thereby eliminating the need to grind months upon months to get an alt ready for end game content. It has its ups and downs but the rationale is that CP becomes the new VR.

Moonshadow66

Gaiden'Densetsu wrote: »

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

With these level (instead of rank) numbers, Cadwell's first Silver zone would be "Area 51"

TheShadowScout

Everything post-mainstory will be 50 Cadwells will be 50. Craglorn will be 50. Orsinium will be 50 You will be 50. And you will be 50 And you too will be 50!
So sadly... no area 51 here...

But yeah, the idea is that once a character gets though the mainstory, they will be endgame-ready with cadwells being entirely optional for those who really want everything, grab all the mage guild books and skyshards, so al the achievements, etc.

The gear will also follow C-points from the last comments, meaning what is now "usable at V12" will then be "equipable at 120 c-points", meaning since c-points are account wide, every character on the account will be able to equip all the gear as soon as they get to level 50, meaning any alts can "inherit" a full set of endgame gear right from the get-go and truly decide where to go from there.

And there is the catchup mechanic for speedy c-point gains, and any veteran characters with less c-points then their gear limit will get their c-points raised (so, if somehow a V16 with only 60 c-points was around, they would drop another 100 c-points on that account so all the V16 gear remains usable)... all in all, it sounds rather neat from where I am watching...

UltimaJoe777

Problem is Zenimax is catering to all these people complaining about grindfests rather than making the game have an actual proper level system. 50 truly is far too small for this game. Might as well just get rid of Cadwell's Silver and Gold and let us roam the other 2 faction areas upon reaching Level 50 along with Craglorn and make it not a what if so everything in those areas is hostile to us.

Brrrofski

Gaiden'Densetsu wrote: »

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

Because it'd be exactly the same as it is now...

Jalor

I haven't made it to vet 16 yet but I don't see how people are having to grind. If you skip all the quests and only do the story line then I could see having to grind. Maybe grinding is faster I don't know but I am enjoying the quests and story line at least the first time through.

Uriel_Nocturne

Brrrofski wrote: »

Gaiden'Densetsu wrote: »

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

Because it'd be exactly the same as it is now...

And the game will still be as it is now once they change the name from Veteran Ranks to Champion Ranks.

There will just be more grind for those Champion Points.

There will still be the gap between the veteran players and new players. People who think that the "catch-up" mechanic will erase this are just being naive and apparently don't understand how percentages work.

The veteran players will have massive banks of CP's just waiting for the CP cap to increase, and they will still dwarf new players in what they can/can not do, due to those gaps in CP's earned.

Literally nothing will change. This is just going to be a weak band-aid to cover the lack of a proper leveling system for end-game content.

Gaiden'Densetsu

Ok, this CP level thing sounds terrible lol but lets see, if it blows up on them they will probably be better off just to remake the whole game again like FF14 did.

Mettaricana

Why start at 50 why not just remove levels in general and have cp from start to finish call them levels instead and have gear progression from there all alts are same level play through story gain cp more each new alt un cap it a bot and let us get like 1000 and spread ingot teors across wider level ranges like iron from 1-50 steel 51-100 etc reduce costs of each and make thibgs like rubedo need more and more each level range to ease gear crafting pains a bit. Give us an attribute point like every 5-10 champion points also to spend as we see fit.

Wanna stop instant max alts add a champion skill make it level passively as you play and every tier it ranks up lets you access 50 points of your overall champion point pool lol.

Uriel_Nocturne

The vast majority of the arguments in favor of removing the Vet Ranks are from people who simply don't want to take the time to level a character (specifically an Alt) to end-game levels.

They're impatient. That's the whole issue.

No other MMO allows you to have an Alt hit end-game content that quick, so why should ESO? That's my question.

This whole thing just makes me believe that after this VR name change goes through, those same people will start crying about levels 1-50.

"Why do I have to level an Alt through 50 levels, Zeni!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? Why can't I just create a character and then they're max level!?!?!?!?!? teh Gr1ndZinG R unb3r@blE!!!!!!"

That's what's coming next after this VR - CR name change...

Brrrofski

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Gaiden'Densetsu wrote: »

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

Because it'd be exactly the same as it is now...

And the game will still be as it is now once they change the name from Veteran Ranks to Champion Ranks.

There will just be more grind for those Champion Points.

There will still be the gap between the veteran players and new players. People who think that the "catch-up" mechanic will erase this are just being naive and apparently don't understand how percentages work.

The veteran players will have massive banks of CP's just waiting for the CP cap to increase, and they will still dwarf new players in what they can/can not do, due to those gaps in CP's earned.

Literally nothing will change. This is just going to be a weak band-aid to cover the lack of a proper leveling system for end-game content.

I don't deny that.

But, it won't be the same as now.

With the new system, once I'm 50, I have the same CP as my other characters. Tey will have near enough the same stat potential. They can share gear. It makes new characters a lot more viable.

There will be less crying about race changes. Less crying about class imbalance. If people think NBs or Sorcs are that OP, they'll just roll one, get to 50 and be in the same place their other characters will. So it would probably end up with less stupid nerfs because some people cry.

VR levels aren't terrible. They're pretty easy to smash through if you know what gives efficient xp. The new way will make it a lot easier to enjoy playing a lot of different characters.

As far as new players go, it does nothing to close the gap between them and older players. If anything, this will widen it. New player get's a character to vet 16 with 70ish CP right? Anyway, once they do, they can wear end game gear.

New system will require them to earn like 300 CP to get end game gear for instance. It would take longer get that than 16 even with a catch up system probably. So old players have more CP and end game gear.

So no, it isn't a better system. But I have 3 vr16, a VR4 and a level 44 who I am about to do coldharbour with for the 5th time. It's the fact of doing coldharbour and then silver which makes VR levels painful. Once I get to gold, I can get from 4 to 16 in around a week max with xp pots and grind spots.

It's just the fixed order of things. You have to do then to get skillpoints and access grind areas for your level. If they had an Orsinium battle levelling sort of thing (no idea how hard it is to implement) for every zone, so you could go where you wanted, when you wanted, vet levels would be fine.

Shadowolfs

Jalor wrote: »

I haven't made it to vet 16 yet but I don't see how people are having to grind. If you skip all the quests and only do the story line then I could see having to grind. Maybe grinding is faster I don't know but I am enjoying the quests and story line at least the first time through.

This issue only occurs to players with multi characters. They completed all the quests and exploration on their first character, and they don't want to repeat the same to other characters. It's easy to level from 1 to 50, but Veteran level is pain in the ass. I enjoy stories and exploration on my first character, but not my other character b/c I spend half year on questing all factions and zones on my first character. I do enjoy this game!

Brrrofski

qli7ub17_ESO wrote: »

Jalor wrote: »

I haven't made it to vet 16 yet but I don't see how people are having to grind. If you skip all the quests and only do the story line then I could see having to grind. Maybe grinding is faster I don't know but I am enjoying the quests and story line at least the first time through.

This issue only occurs to players with multi characters. They completed all the quests and exploration on their first character, and they don't want to repeat the same to other characters. It's easy to level from 1 to 50, but Veteran level is pain in the ass. I enjoy stories and exploration on my first character, but not my other character b/c I spend half year on questing all factions and zones on my first character. I do enjoy this game!

Precisely. Repeating content 5 times just get to end game is not fun at all. It discourages people to make new characters and try new builds. I'd rather be spending time in pvp than levelling, but I want variety in pvp so a few characters. But to do that I have to not pvp and grind a character up. Vicious circle.

AmmonErebos

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

Sausage

This is much better, when players hit lvl 50, he goes to different adventure zones instead of Silver/Gold, later they add even more Adventure Zones. Also now as VRs arent on the way, its much easier to raise level cap with Expansions. Ive actually speculated with myself, VR-removal could also mean we are closing to an expansion, usually first expansion comes with 2-2.5 year mark, they had to remove them from the way. Who knows we might get first Expansion in Christmas 2016.

Brrrofski

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

It's not a handout.

Nor is it end game.

End game would be the CP cap.

Getting a toon to 50 would just bring them to the same level as your others. You'd still have to earn the CP to hit end game, you'd just have more flexibility on how you got there.

Uriel_Nocturne

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

I agree completely.

There's not a single thing wrong with the VR system as it is now.

The only issue is the impatience of people who have too short an attention span to properly level an Alt. As I've said before, no other MMO allows for mega-Godzilla-speed-leveling of an Alt just to get to end-game content, why must ESO allow you to skip the game to get to end-game content with an Alt?

AmmonErebos

Brrrofski wrote: »

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

It's not a handout.

Nor is it end game.

End game would be the CP cap.

Getting a toon to 50 would just bring them to the same level as your others. You'd still have to earn the CP to hit end game, you'd just have more flexibility on how you got there.

it would be endgame... as your CP will automatically be given to your new level 50... so all you do is spend 3 days work.. trade/craft to that alt and you can go do any end-game content...

TheShadowScout

Pffffttt... some will do it this way, others that way.

Me, I have played three characters through all of cadwells and orsinium already at V16, and five more beteeen V2 and V5. And I'm not gonna bypass any content with any character. I'll just take my time with it. The skillpoints makes it worth the while, the gameworld makes it worth the trip...

So, I would have been happy with the veteran ranks as they are now and the champion system only supplemental. -shrugs- But I can see that some lack the requires patience. And I firmly agree with an "let each play as they want" notion. Even grinders, and I really cannot say what I think of people who want to level only through mindless repetetive slaying of trash mobs in some cyrodil cellar without getting the forum mods mad at me again...

But be that as it may, the change will likely make ESO a bit more attractive to those kinds of players who despair when seeing that after the mainstory they "have" to grab another 15 veteran ranks worth of XP. And ESO being more attractive to more people is good for ESO, good for all, so... yay, I suppose...

Uriel_Nocturne

AmmonErebos wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

It's not a handout.

Nor is it end game.

End game would be the CP cap.

Getting a toon to 50 would just bring them to the same level as your others. You'd still have to earn the CP to hit end game, you'd just have more flexibility on how you got there.

it would be endgame... as your CP will automatically be given to your new level 50... so all you do is spend 3 days work.. trade/craft to that alt and you can go do any end-game content...

Exactly. A handout.

But, again; how long after the changeover before people start crying about the requirement that you have to level a character from 1-50? They'll cry about "why can't I create an Alt at level 50?"

Zeni caving to the short attention spans of the world is going to create a snowball effect of anti-leveling sentiment that will only speed up the destruction of this game.

No other MMO allows you to have an Alt and auto-skip the game. Why should ESO?

Jalor

Yes but I would assume they are at least grabbing sky shards and books that is spread out every where. Its just as easy to do the quests that are there. some of them are long and stupid I admit but most of the quests take a mater of a few minutes. When I get to vet 16 and find out grinding is faster than leveling I might go that rout as well on alts.

DaveMoeDee

Gaiden'Densetsu wrote: »

From what I have been hearing, when they remove VR's we will all be level 50? Why would you not just make each VR level a normal level so VR 1's would be 51 and VR 16's would be 66 and start raising the level cap from here. Unless I'm missing something this seems like the best way to go, this game has been out too long to have a level 50 cap. Any opinions.

There is no point in renaming VR levels. Either they should be kept or removed. Renaming means that VR levels are fine and people are just whining.

I am confused how the upcoming changes make a difference. If armor is tied to CP, people still need to grind out CP to get top armor. I suppose getting rid of 15 attribute points will have a substantial flattening effect. It will also increase the impact of gear on strength since less attribute points means that gear accounts for a larger percentage of strength. The same goes for Champion points, though the cap helped flatten that.

And if armor levels are tied to CP, that means there will be a lot more tiers on the way to 3600. This would mean nothing has been achieved by removing CP. If armor is not tied to CP tiers, than you have 15 levels of armor become one. Tying armor to CP is great for people who are at CP cap since all their characters can use top armor as soon as they reach 50. This helps avoid forcing people to repeat Cadwell zones. But it is a complete mess for people will a single character who is VR16 and has only 150 CP. Will they still be able to use their current VR15 or VR16 armor currently equipped?

I hope they aren't getting rid of VR just for the sake of getting rid of VR, but then keeping essentially the same mechanism in a way that makes of mess of people's current characters.

DaveMoeDee

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

They don't want handouts. They want the game to be enjoyable. Repeating the same stories 8 times is fun for a 3 year old. Not so much for adults.

If your response is "you don't have to quest -- you can always grind mobs" -- wrong response. You are replacing a bad option with a worse option.

Personally, I am find with the current system. But I also see the merit of the CP system approach where vet level armors are unlocked account wide. The proposed system is just broken far worse if it requires people to do more CP leveling to be able to continue using their max level armor currently equipped. I have about 170 CP. How many will my VR16 character need to equip max level armor in the CP system?

DaveMoeDee

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

The vast majority of the arguments in favor of removing the Vet Ranks are from people who simply don't want to take the time to level a character (specifically an Alt) to end-game levels.

They're impatient. That's the whole issue.

No other MMO allows you to have an Alt hit end-game content that quick, so why should ESO? That's my question.

This whole thing just makes me believe that after this VR name change goes through, those same people will start crying about levels 1-50.

"Why do I have to level an Alt through 50 levels, Zeni!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? Why can't I just create a character and then they're max level!?!?!?!?!? teh Gr1ndZinG R unb3r@blE!!!!!!"

That's what's coming next after this VR - CR name change...

I agree completely on the 1-50 comment. There is no difference between VR and normal levels apart from the zones that are VR leveled are Cadwell zones.

The CP "solution" seems to be forcing more grinding on the player with a single character for the sake of benefiting those who want a short-cut for their alts.

AmmonErebos

There are multiple ways to level easily in this game... grinding.. questing... dungeons... pvp... silver/gold quests... there are enough options out there... a lot more than other games that I have played that required the grind as compulsory otherwise you could not keep up...

bigscoothb14_ESO

I remember when they started the CP system I had 4 maxed out characters that went through Cadwells silver and gold, and got 60cp total? At the time that felt like a slap in the face, added to that was the great NERF of Craglorn. Needless to say Ive done lots of grinding since to get up to the CP cap. So what is the reward for doing that? More CP's that I will not be able to spend you say? Gear capped at half the CP cap?

That sounds terrible, truly terrible! A VR1 Molag Kena will be the same as a VR16 Molag Kena? I will get to use my current VR16 gold gear on a VR1 alt? What happens to the thousands of mats I have for VR1-VR16 gear? Will kresh fiber/ash be the same as ancestor silk/ruby ash?

It may just be me but CP as a reward seems rather pointless. Give us something good ZOS please! A set of one off rare class specific gear would me nice. Lets be honest level 50 is not much of an accomplishment any more. When you are standing around looking at other players all you are going to see is level 50's, the title they run will give some indication of there skill but that's it!

I have had great success with the new group finder, and horrible experiences. Ive never quit a dungeon on a group before because of lack off skill, there are some players that need that extra time and harder content to become better. That being said I ran vet IPC with a VR1 healer through group finder and he was great! I am all for shorting the VR leveling experience but to think that someone who just beat Molag Bal is ready for vMA makes me laugh.

TL:DR -Bringing VR16 players down so VR1 players are the same, does not make them the same.

SemiD4rkness

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

Dude why should we do the exact same content on more than one character to get to end game... If you've done it the normal way once it shoulnd't have to be done again. It's not like you have to put 0 effort to get 501 cp on one character.
This is also a balance issue, end game for most of the players is pvp ... Ive done almost all there is to be done on my templar, but god I wish i had a vr16 nightblade/sorc. For now Im just grinding cps to get to cap and as soon as vr are removed ill lvl a nightblade and sorc.

AmmonErebos

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

AmmonErebos wrote: »

I don't get why people want handouts to freely level a 2nd alt much quicker... nothing wrong with the current system unless all you want is a handout... you should be required to work to have multiple alts at high levels instead of grind to 50... which is very easy and then boom suddenly you can do end-game...

Dude why should we do the exact same content on more than one character to get to end game... If you've done it the normal way once it shoulnd't have to be done again. It's not like you have to put 0 effort to get 501 cp on one character.
This is also a balance issue, end game for most of the players is pvp ... Ive done almost all there is to be done on my templar, but god I wish i had a vr16 nightblade/sorc. For now Im just grinding cps to get to cap and as soon as vr are removed ill lvl a nightblade and sorc.

Because to do end-game you should have to WORK FOR IT not just get it with less than a weeks work... in the future there will be other levelled trials and such making them more end-game PvE content... why should someone play for 3 days get an alt to 50... then suddenly get buffed big time from other character's existing CP and do the hardest content in the game...

As I said before there are many ways to gain exp in this game... many people have skipped the silver/gold and are still v16... so they haven't "already played through the content once" and for sake of you saying you would rather focus on gaining CP instead of vet levels... newsflash... you still gain CPs whilst leveling vet alts

People who want the rewards without the effort... are what is killing mmo's these days... they are becoming too kid-friendly

Korah_Eaglecry

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

The vast majority of the arguments in favor of removing the Vet Ranks are from people who simply don't want to take the time to level a character (specifically an Alt) to end-game levels.

They're impatient. That's the whole issue.

No other MMO allows you to have an Alt hit end-game content that quick, so why should ESO? That's my question.

This whole thing just makes me believe that after this VR name change goes through, those same people will start crying about levels 1-50.

"Why do I have to level an Alt through 50 levels, Zeni!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? Why can't I just create a character and then they're max level!?!?!?!?!? teh Gr1ndZinG R unb3r@blE!!!!!!"

That's what's coming next after this VR - CR name change...

Youre full of it.

No ones impatient. The amount of work to get to VR 16 without grinding is weeks upon weeks of gameplay. Unless a player is doing 8 hours a day in ESO. They wont be making VR 16 any time soon. And with the increase every 2 ranks per new DLC that ZOS was playing with. It was going to take even longer for anyone playing at a more casual rate to get to top level. Anyone deciding to max out alts would also see a greater deal of time between them and end game. VRs were never a sustainable leveling system. Especially at the rate that ZOS seemed to want to introduce them. Newer Players would eventually be completely turned off by the idea of climbing to the top especially after realizing the mind numbing climb post level 50. Effectively killing the flow of new players that every MMO needs.

The only viable means of getting to endgame currently is either grinding higher level mobs or playing 8+ hours a day. This is leaving a huge block of players out of the endgame content. And everyone bemoaning not having anyone to run this class or that role and at the same time bemoaning the removal of VRs are literal idiots. Youd have more tanks and healers at endgame if people could actually make it to endgame without having to spend as much time in the game on a daily basis as they do at their full time jobs.

No one wants the levels to go away entirely. And trying to imply that or assert it onto those who are in support of VR removal is disingenuous or flat out moronic. Take your pick. And if you havent been here from the start, when the VR leveling was much more of a pain in the *** and many of the VR 12-14 players that were top level at the time are the ones that pushed for this. The very people WHO ALREADY GRINDED THEIR WAY TO THE TOP. Only to realize how much of a pain in the *** it would be to get an alt up to max level.

Reevster

I get removing VR lvls because they are kinda lame, should have just done lvl 51 to 66 and beyond etc like the op has pointed out. Your still grinding for CPs as well as lvl then. Eh who knows , must be something else that I am missing here, should take out lvl 1 to 50 as well , they wont mean anything anyways after you hit 50.