Eclipse: Templar Dawn's Wrath Skill

Spacemonkey

Keep Eclipse

I honestly still find Eclipse useful, and have gotten used to getting nerfed everytime I find a way to be efficient with my Templar.

I think Eclipse could re-use a buff. Either allow it to be cast on multiple targets, or allow it to stack. Making it one of the best nullifyers i've found against stupid magicka gankers.

And I may be weird but i like the healing, what I dont like is the healing nerf in pvp.

Somehow I manage staying alive using Eclipse, Blazing Shield, Rally and Indomnitable.

But yeah. Temps need love. So do DKs now.

Could we ever have news that Nightblades get nerfed one of these days? Hasnt happened to my knowledge since release.

Chims

I like the idea of eclipse but it being able to be instantly removed by anyone makes it not very useful in practice. Also CC immunity stops it as well. Generally if you can get it off on a opponent they will just break out of it.

C0pp3rhead

Agrees to most posters in this thread. Even when eclipse was good, I found it only nominally useful. Most experienced/well-outfitted/CP-endowed players can clear trash mobs with no problem. Most bosses are immune to CC, making it useless in instanced 4-person dungeons and trials. It's CC-breakable and costs more magicka than comparable skills, such as DK wings. The added bonus healing or damage is negligible, to the point where players don't even think twice about breaking out of it - you're basically giving your enemy 5s of free CC immunity.

There's been some discussion about Backlash, but I've only found it useful in PvP 1vX's for applying burst damage. Most Stamplars have more effective DPS rotations, and most magicka Templars are too busy healing to throw out more than the occasional Backlash. Healing Ritual has been trash since day 1, and we've been complaining about it since day 1, and ZOS has done nothing about it since day 1. Other than that, our resto line is pretty solid, especially Channeled Focus - that's my bread & butter.

In other news:

• Our Javelin is just an expensive knockback.
• Our Blazing Spear is just a poorly designed single-target CC. The best uses I've seen for it is (an expensive way of) ferreting out stealthed enemies and giving my friends some stam. Its damage is decent, but either give us a CC ability or a stamina restore. Cobbling all three together doesn't make sense.
• Between shield nerfs and the Shield Breaker set, our shield is useless in PvP.
• Our gap-closer is still broked. Even when it works properly, your enemy is back on his/her feet before you can execute an attack.

So what offensive skills does that leave us with? Jabs, Sun Fire, Solar Flare, and Radiant oppression? All of our other skills are healing skills, highly situational, or garbage. At least most other classes have to choose which skills to slot on their bars. Designing a class with alotta highly situational skills is not good game design when we have only 10 ability slots.

Akinos

Keep Eclipse

I voted on keeping Eclipse. However I do want the ability to cast it on more then one target at a time back.

EgoRush

Replace with crowd control skill

Joy_Division wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Umm...

I just want my old Eclipse back when it was actually one of the few decent Templar skills. So, no, replace it with nothing.

That being said, I do want blinding flashes back - replace it with the other trash in our skill-lines: backlash, healing ritual, sun shield, etc.

Backlash is great for PvE, so I wouldn't want to see that go. Healing Ritual is useless for both PvE and PvP pretty much, so I'd say that would please more of a majority. Sun Shield was nerfed too hard even before Battle Spirit came in and made the shield completely useless. It needs a damage buff or to scale off our largest stat (magicka/stamina).

What about the Javelin? Thrown with god-like strength to tickle enemies. I could consider keeping Eclipse but returning it to being spammable on multiple targets, then get Blinding Flashes in over that Javelin or Healing Ritual. Perhaps the Blinding Flashes morph that damages enemies could be turned into a HoT instead if it was moved to the healing tree of Templar abilities.

I feel like I'm starting to ask for too much and over-complicating this thread now ha.

Backlash use to be OK for PVE but with the amount of spell damage and magicka we have, that capped damage number isn't worth the effort to chase.

Javelin is another underwhelming templar skill I'd trade for blinding flashes.

Backlash/Purifying Light is severely underrated. Mine is capped at 20K damage, that's 20K damage in 6 seconds (over 3K DPS) from an instant cast that gives the group Minor Sorcery and generates ultimate. In long fights like the Serpent I pull off an extra Shooting Star in the fight thanks to this. I pull my best DPS with Purifying Light in my rotation over Sweeps alone or Sweeps/Vamp Bane. I think it's an excellent skill.

bikerangelo

Swap Eclipse for Blinding Flashes

I started playing after Blinding Flashes was removed, but I'd love to see it come back into the game. Even with the lack of mobility, I'd be happy with an integrated templar ability that's magic based and gives a dodge chance. Total Dark is worthless, especially since stam classes don't even need to break out of it and sorcs will just take the extra time to ward stack. Not only, but sometimes it won't even function due to the tempermental CC immunity.

Bring it back, for sure. Mobility would be a close second, but if I had Blinding Flashes I'd be pretty happy.

Joy_Division

EgoRush wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Umm...

I just want my old Eclipse back when it was actually one of the few decent Templar skills. So, no, replace it with nothing.

That being said, I do want blinding flashes back - replace it with the other trash in our skill-lines: backlash, healing ritual, sun shield, etc.

Backlash is great for PvE, so I wouldn't want to see that go. Healing Ritual is useless for both PvE and PvP pretty much, so I'd say that would please more of a majority. Sun Shield was nerfed too hard even before Battle Spirit came in and made the shield completely useless. It needs a damage buff or to scale off our largest stat (magicka/stamina).

What about the Javelin? Thrown with god-like strength to tickle enemies. I could consider keeping Eclipse but returning it to being spammable on multiple targets, then get Blinding Flashes in over that Javelin or Healing Ritual. Perhaps the Blinding Flashes morph that damages enemies could be turned into a HoT instead if it was moved to the healing tree of Templar abilities.

I feel like I'm starting to ask for too much and over-complicating this thread now ha.

Backlash use to be OK for PVE but with the amount of spell damage and magicka we have, that capped damage number isn't worth the effort to chase.

Javelin is another underwhelming templar skill I'd trade for blinding flashes.

Backlash/Purifying Light is severely underrated. Mine is capped at 20K damage, that's 20K damage in 6 seconds (over 3K DPS) from an instant cast that gives the group Minor Sorcery and generates ultimate. In long fights like the Serpent I pull off an extra Shooting Star in the fight thanks to this. I pull my best DPS with Purifying Light in my rotation over Sweeps alone or Sweeps/Vamp Bane. I think it's an excellent skill.

It's not under-appreciated or underrated. It was at one time fine but is now obsolete because how the game has developed

Yours may be capped at 20k, but that just means you have a lot of magicka and the tooltips for your other spells that you aren't casting like dark flare and punctuing sweep are alos high. Your tooltip is relative and not an indication of how good the spell is.

Worse, backlash is not affected at all by spellpower; it only scales of maximum magicka. So whereas your tooltips and damage for your other spells will increase with sorcery bonuses, spell power cure bonuses, and other such damage modfiers, backlash will *not* increase because spellpower does nothing to it and it is capped. This is absolutely crucial and why caps that are generally inefficient.

Also the ultimate and minor sorcery bonus you are getting is not from this spell, you could get those bonuses by casting anything from the Dawn's Wrath Line (such as the aforementioned Dark Flare).

Another thing to consider is that the damage is not over 6 seconds, rather it is 7.2 because of the passive that extends the duration of dawn's wrath abilities. 1.2 seconds may not seem like a lot, but is is rather significant. In your case the DPS goes form 3333 down to 2777.

Even with how it ignores common everyday combat buffs like major sorcery, in it's unbuffed state it is but a marginal increase to DPS that, like most DoTs in this game isn't worth the effort to chase.

There is a trusty mammoth in Wrothgar. Without any buffs or critical hits at all, when I hit it with puncturing sweep, it does 2614 damage. It will hit 4 times in a 1.1 second channel, which is virtual identical to the global cooldown that it will take me to cast backlash which is capped on my unbuffed state at 15765 (it is lower than yours because I have a bad race and this is unbuffed). Let's do some math and remove cirtical from the equation as it is a constant that effects both skills equally and thus can be discarded.

If I use that global cooldown, I will get 4 hits of 2614 damage (10456) damage. I will also proc on average 1 burning light passive which is an additional 3451 damage. Grand total is: 13907.

If I use that global cooldown to use backlash, then it will store that 15765 damage and I (might) get that in 7.2 seconds.

So in an unbuffed state, it barely beasts out puncturing sweeps ... if the target doesn't die before ... and I don't get the heals from puncturing sweep ... or the AOE that would absolutely blow away backlash's DPS if another target were in the vicinity.

But what I i buff myself with the bare minimum spellpower bonus? My puncturing sweeps go to 2907 damage and burning light to 3853. Now that global cooldown I use for puncturing sweeps is 15481 whereas Burning light is still 15765 - virtually the same - and I don't get any heals, lose the AoE, and I have to wait for that damage. And my build is that of a healer geared toward sustain. People who have a good race and theorycraft their build to maximize their spellpower and damage will actually make it so Backlash is a DPS loss under all circumstances.

As far as your contention that you got your best DPS score using this skill in Sanctum, I believe you, but what were the cirumstances when you got this figure? Was it months and months ago when we were VR14 before the release of the latest DLCs - when doing Sanctum wasn't a total waste of time? When 2000 spellpower, which modifies your non backlash abilities, was considered good? Have you since conducted vigorous DPS tests with the 4000+ spellpower you would have when buffed while doing Sanctum? I doubt it because backlash is not affected by that massive increase in spellpower and your other DPS alternatives are.

A templar who uses backlash at this current state of the game, not 8 months ago when that capped valued that ignored spellpower made sense and was reasonably balanced respectively to other alternatives, is like a baseball player who uses a wooden bat. Sure, the player's high skill level may lead him to outperform his metal bat using competitors, but that is ins spite of the tool he chooses to use, not because of it.

In short: this skill, which at one time was fine, has been rendered obsolete by how the game has developed (particularly the emphasis on spellpower) and is a pretty good case study why capped values that do not take into spell/weapon power is not a good idea.

EgoRush

Replace with crowd control skill

Joy_Division wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Umm...

I just want my old Eclipse back when it was actually one of the few decent Templar skills. So, no, replace it with nothing.

That being said, I do want blinding flashes back - replace it with the other trash in our skill-lines: backlash, healing ritual, sun shield, etc.

Backlash is great for PvE, so I wouldn't want to see that go. Healing Ritual is useless for both PvE and PvP pretty much, so I'd say that would please more of a majority. Sun Shield was nerfed too hard even before Battle Spirit came in and made the shield completely useless. It needs a damage buff or to scale off our largest stat (magicka/stamina).

What about the Javelin? Thrown with god-like strength to tickle enemies. I could consider keeping Eclipse but returning it to being spammable on multiple targets, then get Blinding Flashes in over that Javelin or Healing Ritual. Perhaps the Blinding Flashes morph that damages enemies could be turned into a HoT instead if it was moved to the healing tree of Templar abilities.

I feel like I'm starting to ask for too much and over-complicating this thread now ha.

Backlash use to be OK for PVE but with the amount of spell damage and magicka we have, that capped damage number isn't worth the effort to chase.

Javelin is another underwhelming templar skill I'd trade for blinding flashes.

Backlash/Purifying Light is severely underrated. Mine is capped at 20K damage, that's 20K damage in 6 seconds (over 3K DPS) from an instant cast that gives the group Minor Sorcery and generates ultimate. In long fights like the Serpent I pull off an extra Shooting Star in the fight thanks to this. I pull my best DPS with Purifying Light in my rotation over Sweeps alone or Sweeps/Vamp Bane. I think it's an excellent skill.

It's not under-appreciated or underrated. It was at one time fine but is now obsolete because how the game has developed

Yours may be capped at 20k, but that just means you have a lot of magicka and the tooltips for your other spells that you aren't casting like dark flare and punctuing sweep are alos high. Your tooltip is relative and not an indication of how good the spell is.

Worse, backlash is not affected at all by spellpower; it only scales of maximum magicka. So whereas your tooltips and damage for your other spells will increase with sorcery bonuses, spell power cure bonuses, and other such damage modfiers, backlash will *not* increase because spellpower does nothing to it and it is capped. This is absolutely crucial and why caps that are generally inefficient.

Also the ultimate and minor sorcery bonus you are getting is not from this spell, you could get those bonuses by casting anything from the Dawn's Wrath Line (such as the aforementioned Dark Flare).

Another thing to consider is that the damage is not over 6 seconds, rather it is 7.2 because of the passive that extends the duration of dawn's wrath abilities. 1.2 seconds may not seem like a lot, but is is rather significant. In your case the DPS goes form 3333 down to 2777.

Even with how it ignores common everyday combat buffs like major sorcery, in it's unbuffed state it is but a marginal increase to DPS that, like most DoTs in this game isn't worth the effort to chase.

There is a trusty mammoth in Wrothgar. Without any buffs or critical hits at all, when I hit it with puncturing sweep, it does 2614 damage. It will hit 4 times in a 1.1 second channel, which is virtual identical to the global cooldown that it will take me to cast backlash which is capped on my unbuffed state at 15765 (it is lower than yours because I have a bad race and this is unbuffed). Let's do some math and remove cirtical from the equation as it is a constant that effects both skills equally and thus can be discarded.

If I use that global cooldown, I will get 4 hits of 2614 damage (10456) damage. I will also proc on average 1 burning light passive which is an additional 3451 damage. Grand total is: 13907.

If I use that global cooldown to use backlash, then it will store that 15765 damage and I (might) get that in 7.2 seconds.

So in an unbuffed state, it barely beasts out puncturing sweeps ... if the target doesn't die before ... and I don't get the heals from puncturing sweep ... or the AOE that would absolutely blow away backlash's DPS if another target were in the vicinity.

But what I i buff myself with the bare minimum spellpower bonus? My puncturing sweeps go to 2907 damage and burning light to 3853. Now that global cooldown I use for puncturing sweeps is 15481 whereas Burning light is still 15765 - virtually the same - and I don't get any heals, lose the AoE, and I have to wait for that damage. And my build is that of a healer geared toward sustain. People who have a good race and theorycraft their build to maximize their spellpower and damage will actually make it so Backlash is a DPS loss under all circumstances.

As far as your contention that you got your best DPS score using this skill in Sanctum, I believe you, but what were the cirumstances when you got this figure? Was it months and months ago when we were VR14 before the release of the latest DLCs - when doing Sanctum wasn't a total waste of time? When 2000 spellpower, which modifies your non backlash abilities, was considered good? Have you since conducted vigorous DPS tests with the 4000+ spellpower you would have when buffed while doing Sanctum? I doubt it because backlash is not affected by that massive increase in spellpower and your other DPS alternatives are.

A templar who uses backlash at this current state of the game, not 8 months ago when that capped valued that ignored spellpower made sense and was reasonably balanced respectively to other alternatives, is like a baseball player who uses a wooden bat. Sure, the player's high skill level may lead him to outperform his metal bat using competitors, but that is ins spite of the tool he chooses to use, not because of it.

In short: this skill, which at one time was fine, has been rendered obsolete by how the game has developed (particularly the emphasis on spellpower) and is a pretty good case study why capped values that do not take into spell/weapon power is not a good idea.

I can see your point, but Purifying Light is still working great for me at this point in the game. I'm not talking about 8 months ago as this would be completely irrelevant...I still use this skill and I'm still actively playing the game. I've tested various DPS rotations for magicka Templar on a whole variety of builds, all of which I have had a DPS increase having Purifying Light in my rotation. Other Dawn's Wrath abilities can proc the Minor Sorcery, sure, but none of the others are instant-cast and do as much damage (Vampire Bane would be viable if we had points into Elemental Expert too, but at the current CP cap it is not as good from my tests). Dark Flare has a cast time and is a DPS loss compared to simply sweeping.

My current setup has just over 2.6K spell damage unbuffed with over 42K magicka. Factor in War Horn constantly being up in raids (thus increasing my max magicka and the Purifying Light cap) and I perform better with my build than simply doing jabs alone.

I consistently hit higher DPS with it in my rotation, whether this has been in vWGT, vICP, Sanctum, AA, HRC, Bloodspawn tests etc. Mammoths are not the best place to test things as their spell resistance is not reflective of boss fights in trials and other end-game content. Your sweeps will be mitigated by boss spell resistance. All my tests I repeat whenever there is a new patch, I run a regular thread for magicka Templar DPS on Tamriel Foundry where many of us discuss such things. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but of all the combinations I've tried it has given the most promising results.

I feel the skill is decent as it is. Also, the cap is incredibly easy to reach for me, I never have Purifying Light pop for less than the capped damage. I like it

EDIT: Anyway this is going off topic from the OP. We can discuss more on Tamriel Foundry or by pm if you want to.