The damage reduction aka Battlespirit. My toughts. (pic)

olsborg

So the whole idea, according to EricW, was that the new battlespirit would make combat slower and alow for more tactical aproaches with healing and ...other reactions. Why is it then, that they gave us the means to increase our weapon and spelldmg and resources to much higher then before so the damage stays almost the same, except we heal and shield ourselves much less (block too)

Its kinda contradictive is you ask me. On my stamina nightblade I can pretty much dish out the same kinda burst to kill ppl in seconds, heres proof too.

Tankqull

not disagreeing but basing this discussion on someone battlelvld in not lvl aproriate gear is a bit off.

olsborg

Tankqull wrote: »

not disagreeing but basing this discussion on someone battlelvld in not lvl aproriate gear is a bit off.

This was vs a v16, pretty much fully decked out in epic/legendary gear. Im guessing he is in either full medium armor or 5m and 2heavy. He is a nightblade like me.

eliisra

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

not disagreeing but basing this discussion on someone battlelvld in not lvl aproriate gear is a bit off.

This was vs a v16, pretty much fully decked out in epic/legendary gear. Im guessing he is in either full medium armor or 5m and 2heavy. He is a nightblade like me.

Yeah, it's ***.

I'm in 5+ legendary heavy armor on my templar. Now back to getting hit for 8-9k Surprise Attacks and 13-14k Wrecking Blows.
Stamina dmg is getting closer and closer to 1.6. While at least v.s. magicka dmg, you can stack Hardy and Elemental defender, making it less painful.

At least in 1.6 I could use my Blazing Shield against stamina mele attackers, I could dodge and block way more often. Only defence I have left now that's not completely ruined is healing, since scaling of magicka and spell power. So yes, thanks for screwing up the game massively ZoS.

AfkNinja

ZOS doesn't know how to balance their own game.

Waffennacht

Wait, why is anything in PvP v14+ being changed?

Also could some one actually describe what the changes are? Anything effecting shields has amassive impact on sorcs.

Maulkin

I said the same thing in the thread about hardened ward and people just don't get it.

The new sets that were added, the new v16 jewellery enchants, the higher base damage of legendary v16 weapons.... they all pushed weapon/spell damage much higher than it was possible before. From what I see form my guild mates their average *buffed* weapon/spell damage is now 30% to 40% more than what it was before the IC update. By comparison max stamina/magicka has only increased by 5-10%, as there are no sets that give 3k-5k max stamina/magicka as 5-piece bonus, like there are sets that give 500 spell/wpn damage.

So what has really happened?

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy

3) Damage was not nerfed as hard as people think exactly because average weapon/spell damage has increased so much. Things that don't scale from wpn/spell damage were nerfed even more by comparison, with wards being a prime example. My calculations show that Hardened Ward was nerfed by over 25% compared to average damage (doesn't stop people asking for nerfs), not only 5% the Battle Spirit change suggests.

4) Small scale became much harder not only because the game mechanics promote zerging, but because offense is so much more potent than defense now. Blocking, Dodging, Bolting, Shielding etc... they all took much bigger nerfs than damage. As a result when you're outnumbered 3v1, unless the people are under-leveled it's much much harder to keep up with the damage and CC coming your way.

One observation, ALL heals now scale off weapon/spell damage except Dragon Blood. Vigor, Rally, Resto Heals, Templar heals... the lot. So unlike what you @olsborg say, I find that healing has "kind of" kept up with damage because it scales off exactly the same stats, hence Templar BoL spamming is still very very effective. If you a DK relying on GDB tho.....

WillhelmBlack

I'm seeing it completely different in 5 heavy.

I can't be killed 1v1 atm. It's very silly. I can fight Sorcs for hours especially any using shields as I don't have enough damage to burst their shields and even touch their health bar.

NB's I can at least kill, even with the insane damage they dish out, I can heal through that.

Can't remember even fighting another Templar 1v1, are there even any out there?

The way it is atm, if players want to do damage they should wear light or medium and accept they will be killed. If they want to be immortal wear heavy and accept PvP will be quite boring.

Docmandu

Imho the change to 50% reduction wasn't the correct fix.. they should have looked at individual skill scaling and give people a reason to not just put everything in +magicka or +stamina... and probably look into diminishing returns again for stat stacking.

For some skills / builds damage is back to 2 second kills.

Maulkin

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'm seeing it completely different in 5 heavy.

I can't be killed 1v1 atm. It's very silly. I can fight Sorcs for hours especially any using shields as I don't have enough damage to burst their shields and even touch their health bar.

NB's I can at least kill, even with the insane damage they dish out, I can heal through that.

Can't remember even fighting another Templar 1v1, are there even any out there?

You have to justify your experience with facts though.

For me, it was even harder to kill tanky builds in 1.5 than now because they regened Stam while blocking. I find tanky people die marginally easier now because of that. Certain sets were added that do help a bit though.

You could be unkillable 1v3 as a tank in 1.5. Not just 1v1. And you could dish some damage too

Derra

Docmandu wrote: »

Imho the change to 50% reduction wasn't the correct fix.. they should have looked at individual skill scaling and give people a reason to not just put everything in +magicka or +stamina... and probably look into diminishing returns again for stat stacking.

For some skills / builds damage is back to 2 second kills.

1.6 would have worked wonderfully IF they had not decreased the value of HP with the same patch from x1.5 compared to other stats to x1.1.

However this is only for 1.6. With 1.7 they introduced such a power creep with v16 items (weapons) new setboni and the like the game currently is MUCH harder to balance than it would have been in 1.6.

olsborg

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy
.

Oh good point here, yes completely agree.

k2blader

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I said the same thing in the thread about hardened ward and people just don't get it.

The new sets that were added, the new v16 jewellery enchants, the higher base damage of legendary v16 weapons.... they all pushed weapon/spell damage much higher than it was possible before. From what I see form my guild mates their average *buffed* weapon/spell damage is now 30% to 40% more than what it was before the IC update. By comparison max stamina/magicka has only increased by 5-10%, as there are no sets that give 3k-5k max stamina/magicka as 5-piece bonus, like there are sets that give 500 spell/wpn damage.

So what has really happened?

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy

3) Damage was not nerfed as hard as people think exactly because average weapon/spell damage has increased so much. Things that don't scale from wpn/spell damage were nerfed even more by comparison, with wards being a prime example. My calculations show that Hardened Ward was nerfed by over 25% compared to average damage (doesn't stop people asking for nerfs), not only 5% the Battle Spirit change suggests.

4) Small scale became much harder not only because the game mechanics promote zerging, but because offense is so much more potent than defense now. Blocking, Dodging, Bolting, Shielding etc... they all took much bigger nerfs than damage. As a result when you're outnumbered 3v1, unless the people are under-leveled it's much much harder to keep up with the damage and CC coming your way.

One observation, ALL heals now scale off weapon/spell damage except Dragon Blood. Vigor, Rally, Resto Heals, Templar heals... the lot. So unlike what you @olsborg say, I find that healing has "kind of" kept up with damage because it scales off exactly the same stats, hence Templar BoL spamming is still very very effective. If you a DK relying on GDB tho.....

Such a good post. Re. non-templar magicka healing, the healing nerf has affected lesser geared, lower CP'd folks significantly.

zornyan

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I said the same thing in the thread about hardened ward and people just don't get it.

The new sets that were added, the new v16 jewellery enchants, the higher base damage of legendary v16 weapons.... they all pushed weapon/spell damage much higher than it was possible before. From what I see form my guild mates their average *buffed* weapon/spell damage is now 30% to 40% more than what it was before the IC update. By comparison max stamina/magicka has only increased by 5-10%, as there are no sets that give 3k-5k max stamina/magicka as 5-piece bonus, like there are sets that give 500 spell/wpn damage.

So what has really happened?

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy

3) Damage was not nerfed as hard as people think exactly because average weapon/spell damage has increased so much. Things that don't scale from wpn/spell damage were nerfed even more by comparison, with wards being a prime example. My calculations show that Hardened Ward was nerfed by over 25% compared to average damage (doesn't stop people asking for nerfs), not only 5% the Battle Spirit change suggests.

4) Small scale became much harder not only because the game mechanics promote zerging, but because offense is so much more potent than defense now. Blocking, Dodging, Bolting, Shielding etc... they all took much bigger nerfs than damage. As a result when you're outnumbered 3v1, unless the people are under-leveled it's much much harder to keep up with the damage and CC coming your way.

One observation, ALL heals now scale off weapon/spell damage except Dragon Blood. Vigor, Rally, Resto Heals, Templar heals... the lot. So unlike what you @olsborg say, I find that healing has "kind of" kept up with damage because it scales off exactly the same stats, hence Templar BoL spamming is still very very effective. If you a DK relying on GDB tho.....

Couple points I disagree with.

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

Weapon damage isn't far off either, someone did the maths and ravagers still provides the most weapon power, even including using some jewellery instead of agility.

I think half of it is people used to use sets like ravagers etc, but obviously it's a proc, which people used caltrops for, but they changed it so it wouldn't proc stuff like that anymore, but it's still very powerful imo.

Anyway my point was, yes there was a power hike, but not as dramatic as people would think, people were still hitting 4500 weapon damage with ravager.

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

Sublime

zornyan wrote: »

Couple points I disagree with.

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

Weapon damage isn't far off either, someone did the maths and ravagers still provides the most weapon power, even including using some jewellery instead of agility.

I think half of it is people used to use sets like ravagers etc, but obviously it's a proc, which people used caltrops for, but they changed it so it wouldn't proc stuff like that anymore, but it's still very powerful imo.

Anyway my point was, yes there was a power hike, but not as dramatic as people would think, people were still hitting 4500 weapon damage with ravager.

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

I see two things you forget:

1. The V14 -> V16 shift of the weapons (which only affect spell/weapon damage) does not have a max magicka/stamina counterpart.
2. In 1.6 a lot of magicka builds were running Cyrodiil's Light/Martial Knowledge as top level gear. This had 2-3 max magicka set bonuses. However, post 1.7 Magnus or Archmage (4pc) is the only way to use a good set, while still having at least one max magicka set bonus.

There might be arguments for both sides that I miss atm, but that's just what I saw on the first sight.

zornyan

Sublime wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Couple points I disagree with.

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

Weapon damage isn't far off either, someone did the maths and ravagers still provides the most weapon power, even including using some jewellery instead of agility.

I think half of it is people used to use sets like ravagers etc, but obviously it's a proc, which people used caltrops for, but they changed it so it wouldn't proc stuff like that anymore, but it's still very powerful imo.

Anyway my point was, yes there was a power hike, but not as dramatic as people would think, people were still hitting 4500 weapon damage with ravager.

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

I see two things you forget:

1. The V14 -> V16 shift of the weapons (which only affect spell/weapon damage) does not have a max magicka/stamina counterpart.
2. In 1.6 a lot of magicka builds were running Cyrodiil's Light/Martial Knowledge as top level gear. This had 2-3 max magicka set bonuses. However, post 1.7 Magnus or Archmage (4pc) is the only way to use a good set, while still having at least one max magicka set bonus.

There might be arguments for both sides that I miss atm, but that's just what I saw on the first sight.

The vr16 enchants are stronger than before no? A gold infused vr16 item can give 1061 mag /stam which is a good chunk more than before, also vr15 food is better than previous stats, plus 2 more attribute points,

SemiD4rkness

This game's balance is so stupid. Think about how pvp would look like without battlespirit (like it should be)
One surprise attack would be able to kill 20k hp targets (who'd need to invest a bit in hp or go around with 15k health)
Sorceres would just stack 30k shields over and over. Templars would just sit there criting 20k heals and DKs i dont even know.
Battlespirit is just a way to try and hide the mess that this game's balance really is.

zornyan

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

This game's balance is so stupid. Think about how pvp would look like without battlespirit (like it should be)
One surprise attack would be able to kill 20k hp targets (who'd need to invest a bit in hp or go around with 15k health)
Sorceres would just stack 30k shields over and over. Templars would just sit there criting 20k heals and DKs i dont even know.
Battlespirit is just a way to try and hide the mess that this game's balance really is.

Not really, as they obviously design. Alot of pve content that require high end dps, the battle spirit is merely to tone things down a bit, as people can get 40-50k hits in pve, it's a way of balancing out pve and pvp, which is something I like that my character and play style can stay the same.

All its doing its toning things down, your heals hit hard, your suprise attack hits hard etc, just a bit less to give people a chance to react and fight.

Sublime

zornyan wrote: »

The vr16 enchants are stronger than before no? A gold infused vr16 item can give 1061 mag /stam which is a good chunk more than before, also vr15 food is better than previous stats, plus 2 more attribute points,

I'm not refering to enchantments, but the damage given by the weapons themselves. If that's not what you mean, then I don't understand your post.

Maulkin

zornyan wrote: »

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

Krags did not used to give spell damage. That's 226 spell damage right there. The base weapon damage from v14 to v16 is another 220. Molag Kena 1-piece is another 129. Maestrom staff another 189. Those values all unbuffed. Jewel glyphs give 179 spell damage and they used to give 110 which made them inferior to cost reduction and weren't used. Willpower was only an increase of 60 spell damage compared previous jewelry pieces like Healer set (129 to 189).

By switching 1 jewel enchant to damage as well as the above sets you have easily 700-800 spell damage more after buffs.

I have 2.8k spell damage buffed now compared to 1.8k with my seducer or 2.1k with Martial Knowledge in version 2.0 (pre IC). That's 50% and 30% up respectively and I know have more sustain than both my previous setups. And none of that increase comes from CPs or passives.

zornyan wrote: »

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

No. You don't know where your magicka is coming from.

You get 200 more magicka on Infused big pieces and 80 more magicka on small divines compared to the v14 gear of version 2.0. That's less than 1k combined. You got another 500 extra from willpower (compared to Healer) another 600 from higher Arcane traits combined (200x3) and another 1k form food. Total difference less than 3k. Even with all my CPs and racial passive giving me 30% more (does not apply to food) I barely get 3.5k more. I went from 35k to 38k personally. A 10% increase

What probably happened in your case from 2.0 is a) you got more CPs and they give % increase to your stats and b) you got Undaunted Passives and mixed gear.

zornyan wrote: »

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

The difference is more pronounced on spell damage but stamina also got huge buffs from Kena, Maelstrom Weapons and base weapon damage. They can also scale 1k higher than they could before. Ask stamina users they'll tell you.

"Still see people with 14k Hardened Ward". And? With the +45k max magicka builds of 1.6 you could get over 20k Hardened Wards easy. Personally, I have 11k now when I used to have 16k with 2.5k less magicka. The people that rock high magicka to make those 14k wards are making sacrifices elsewhere (like regen and spell damage) and the point stands that wards are much reduced both in nominal values and relative to damage in 2.1. The dude shows screenshots hitting +10k Surprise Attacks. That's not much different then the damage of 2.0 while wards are 30% smaller in comparison.

As I always say about you, maths is not your strong point.

zornyan

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

Krags did not used to give spell damage. That's 226 spell damage right there. The base weapon damage from v14 to v16 is another 220. Molag Kena 1-piece is another 129. Maestrom staff another 189. Those values all unbuffed. Jewel glyphs give 179 spell damage and they used to give 110 which made them inferior to cost reduction and weren't used. Willpower was only an increase of 60 spell damage compared previous jewelry pieces like Healer set (129 to 189).

By switching 1 jewel enchant to damage as well as the above sets you have easily 700-800 spell damage more after buffs.

I have 2.8k spell damage buffed now compared to 1.8k with my seducer or 2.1k with Martial Knowledge in version 2.0 (pre IC). That's 50% and 30% up respectively and I know have more sustain than both my previous setups. And none of that increase comes from CPs or passives.

zornyan wrote: »

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

No. You don't know where your magicka is coming from.

You get 200 more magicka on Infused big pieces and 80 more magicka on small divines compared to the v14 gear of version 2.0. That's less than 1k combined. You got another 500 extra from willpower (compared to Healer) another 600 from higher Arcane traits combined (200x3) and another 1k form food. Total difference less than 3k. Even with all my CPs and racial passive giving me 30% more (does not apply to food) I barely get 3.5k more. I went from 35k to 38k personally. A 10% increase

What probably happened in your case from 2.0 is a) you got more CPs and they give % increase to your stats and b) you got Undaunted Passives and mixed gear.

zornyan wrote: »

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

The difference is more pronounced on spell damage but stamina also got huge buffs from Kena, Maelstrom Weapons and base weapon damage. They can also scale 1k higher than they could before. Ask stamina users they'll tell you.

"Still see people with 14k Hardened Ward". And? With the +45k max magicka builds of 1.6 you could get over 20k Hardened Wards easy. Personally, I have 11k now when I used to have 16k with 2.5k less magicka. The people that rock high magicka to make those 14k wards are making sacrifices elsewhere (like regen and spell damage) and the point stands that wards are much reduced both in nominal values and relative to damage in 2.1. The dude shows screenshots hitting +10k Surprise Attacks. That's not much different then the damage of 2.0 while wards are 30% smaller in comparison.

As I always say about you, maths is not your strong point.

People are hitting more magicka ans having stronger wards than ever, especially with cp catch up meaning more and more sorcs getting CP into bastion .

I still see, and people still show they have 14-15k hardened wards, or 25k worth of stacked shields. There's people with 49-50k magicka with plenty of regen and spell damage still.

Maulkin

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

Krags did not used to give spell damage. That's 226 spell damage right there. The base weapon damage from v14 to v16 is another 220. Molag Kena 1-piece is another 129. Maestrom staff another 189. Those values all unbuffed. Jewel glyphs give 179 spell damage and they used to give 110 which made them inferior to cost reduction and weren't used. Willpower was only an increase of 60 spell damage compared previous jewelry pieces like Healer set (129 to 189).

By switching 1 jewel enchant to damage as well as the above sets you have easily 700-800 spell damage more after buffs.

I have 2.8k spell damage buffed now compared to 1.8k with my seducer or 2.1k with Martial Knowledge in version 2.0 (pre IC). That's 50% and 30% up respectively and I know have more sustain than both my previous setups. And none of that increase comes from CPs or passives.

zornyan wrote: »

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

No. You don't know where your magicka is coming from.

You get 200 more magicka on Infused big pieces and 80 more magicka on small divines compared to the v14 gear of version 2.0. That's less than 1k combined. You got another 500 extra from willpower (compared to Healer) another 600 from higher Arcane traits combined (200x3) and another 1k form food. Total difference less than 3k. Even with all my CPs and racial passive giving me 30% more (does not apply to food) I barely get 3.5k more. I went from 35k to 38k personally. A 10% increase

What probably happened in your case from 2.0 is a) you got more CPs and they give % increase to your stats and b) you got Undaunted Passives and mixed gear.

zornyan wrote: »

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

The difference is more pronounced on spell damage but stamina also got huge buffs from Kena, Maelstrom Weapons and base weapon damage. They can also scale 1k higher than they could before. Ask stamina users they'll tell you.

"Still see people with 14k Hardened Ward". And? With the +45k max magicka builds of 1.6 you could get over 20k Hardened Wards easy. Personally, I have 11k now when I used to have 16k with 2.5k less magicka. The people that rock high magicka to make those 14k wards are making sacrifices elsewhere (like regen and spell damage) and the point stands that wards are much reduced both in nominal values and relative to damage in 2.1. The dude shows screenshots hitting +10k Surprise Attacks. That's not much different then the damage of 2.0 while wards are 30% smaller in comparison.

As I always say about you, maths is not your strong point.

People are hitting more magicka ans having stronger wards than ever, especially with cp catch up meaning more and more sorcs getting CP into bastion .

I still see, and people still show they have 14-15k hardened wards, or 25k worth of stacked shields. There's people with 49-50k magicka with plenty of regen and spell damage still.

Nope, you don't know what you're talking about as always.

Just close your eyes to all the maths and spew lies it's all the same to me

zornyan

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

Krags did not used to give spell damage. That's 226 spell damage right there. The base weapon damage from v14 to v16 is another 220. Molag Kena 1-piece is another 129. Maestrom staff another 189. Those values all unbuffed. Jewel glyphs give 179 spell damage and they used to give 110 which made them inferior to cost reduction and weren't used. Willpower was only an increase of 60 spell damage compared previous jewelry pieces like Healer set (129 to 189).

By switching 1 jewel enchant to damage as well as the above sets you have easily 700-800 spell damage more after buffs.

I have 2.8k spell damage buffed now compared to 1.8k with my seducer or 2.1k with Martial Knowledge in version 2.0 (pre IC). That's 50% and 30% up respectively and I know have more sustain than both my previous setups. And none of that increase comes from CPs or passives.

zornyan wrote: »

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

No. You don't know where your magicka is coming from.

You get 200 more magicka on Infused big pieces and 80 more magicka on small divines compared to the v14 gear of version 2.0. That's less than 1k combined. You got another 500 extra from willpower (compared to Healer) another 600 from higher Arcane traits combined (200x3) and another 1k form food. Total difference less than 3k. Even with all my CPs and racial passive giving me 30% more (does not apply to food) I barely get 3.5k more. I went from 35k to 38k personally. A 10% increase

What probably happened in your case from 2.0 is a) you got more CPs and they give % increase to your stats and b) you got Undaunted Passives and mixed gear.

zornyan wrote: »

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

The difference is more pronounced on spell damage but stamina also got huge buffs from Kena, Maelstrom Weapons and base weapon damage. They can also scale 1k higher than they could before. Ask stamina users they'll tell you.

"Still see people with 14k Hardened Ward". And? With the +45k max magicka builds of 1.6 you could get over 20k Hardened Wards easy. Personally, I have 11k now when I used to have 16k with 2.5k less magicka. The people that rock high magicka to make those 14k wards are making sacrifices elsewhere (like regen and spell damage) and the point stands that wards are much reduced both in nominal values and relative to damage in 2.1. The dude shows screenshots hitting +10k Surprise Attacks. That's not much different then the damage of 2.0 while wards are 30% smaller in comparison.

As I always say about you, maths is not your strong point.

People are hitting more magicka ans having stronger wards than ever, especially with cp catch up meaning more and more sorcs getting CP into bastion .

I still see, and people still show they have 14-15k hardened wards, or 25k worth of stacked shields. There's people with 49-50k magicka with plenty of regen and spell damage still.

Nope, you don't know what you're talking about as always.

Just close your eyes to all the maths and spew lies it's all the same to me

I just count you as another "I want my op class to remain op forever" brigade.

And what about people having 150k worth of shields in pve? That's 70k + in pvp.

Derra

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I said the same thing in the thread about hardened ward and people just don't get it.

The new sets that were added, the new v16 jewellery enchants, the higher base damage of legendary v16 weapons.... they all pushed weapon/spell damage much higher than it was possible before. From what I see form my guild mates their average *buffed* weapon/spell damage is now 30% to 40% more than what it was before the IC update. By comparison max stamina/magicka has only increased by 5-10%, as there are no sets that give 3k-5k max stamina/magicka as 5-piece bonus, like there are sets that give 500 spell/wpn damage.

So what has really happened?

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy

3) Damage was not nerfed as hard as people think exactly because average weapon/spell damage has increased so much. Things that don't scale from wpn/spell damage were nerfed even more by comparison, with wards being a prime example. My calculations show that Hardened Ward was nerfed by over 25% compared to average damage (doesn't stop people asking for nerfs), not only 5% the Battle Spirit change suggests.

4) Small scale became much harder not only because the game mechanics promote zerging, but because offense is so much more potent than defense now. Blocking, Dodging, Bolting, Shielding etc... they all took much bigger nerfs than damage. As a result when you're outnumbered 3v1, unless the people are under-leveled it's much much harder to keep up with the damage and CC coming your way.

One observation, ALL heals now scale off weapon/spell damage except Dragon Blood. Vigor, Rally, Resto Heals, Templar heals... the lot. So unlike what you @olsborg say, I find that healing has "kind of" kept up with damage because it scales off exactly the same stats, hence Templar BoL spamming is still very very effective. If you a DK relying on GDB tho.....

Couple points I disagree with.

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

This could not be more wrong. Edit: Well it´s right that it´s only a "couple of hundred more" however a couple of hundred by a base spelldmg of anywhere between 1300 to 2000 is an increase of anywhere between and 50% (the latter being extreme cases).

Before 1.7 i was running about as high of a spelldmg build as one could get with a destruction staff build on my sorc. This resulted in unbuffed spelldmg of ~1960 and buffed somewhere around 2380. 4p martial 4p healer 2p torug 1p bs. I could have gotten 120 spelldmg more at the cost of 930 magica by going cyro light + adroitness.
This gave me just above 30k magica.

Now i´m running Julianos 5p, torug 2p, willpower 3p, Kena 1p. This puts me unbuffed at 2670 spelldmg, buffed is 3160. At 33.3k magica.

This means while maxmagica increase by 10% my buffed spelldmg increased by 25%.

Bare in mind these are two relatively comparable setups. If i had the desire to push my spelldmg i could get another 240 by going apprentice over thief mundus. Or i could build a template with kena 2p which is in no way as restrictive on magica use as you´re making it out to be - the main reason it was sh*t was the increase on dodge/block/breakfree which has been fixed and would i have a headpiece with a good trait i´d be running kena any day of the week.

With kena i´d be at ~ 3700 spelldmg buffed which would be a 35% increase.

Anyone running sustain setups in 1.6 however will have seen much higher increases in spelldmg as they basically gained ~200 by weapons and 174 per ring enchantment. One enchantment alone is more than a 10% base increase for sustained dmg setups of 1.6.

So maulkins estimations are pretty spot on.

Maulkin

zornyan wrote: »

I just count you as another "I want my op class to remain op forever" brigade.

It's alright, I've made it blatantly clear I think you're one of those that don't know what they're talking about and you prove me right with every post.

zornyan wrote: »

And what about people having 150k worth of shields in pve? That's 70k + in pvp.

What about them?

1) We've never said that shield-stacking is not lame and op
2) PvE wards are not nerfed, so what your point? This is the PvP section and wards were nerfed in PvP.
3) You could reach higher numbers in 1.6 due to no CP cap and overload bug
4) Who the hell runs 4 shields in PvE? People just make these builds to test how high they can theoretically go. All the Sorcs I see going into Arena only use 1 shield.

Bashev

I agree. I said it before. With the next patch they will have to reduce the damage with 75% not with 50%. The reason is that they introduced new sets that increase damage, new food, new enchants with higher stats. At the same time the mitigation form armor is capped at 50%. If I reached that mitigation at 1.6 then at 1.9 or 1.10 I will be at cap again but the damage will be increased. We need other ways to reduce the damage especially the physical one. Another big problem is the penetration which is super high.

Maulkin

Bashev wrote: »

I agree. I said it before. With the next patch they will have to reduce the damage with 75% not with 50%. The reason is that they introduced new sets that increase damage, new food, new enchants with higher stats. At the same time the mitigation form armor is capped at 50%. If I reached that mitigation at 1.6 then at 1.9 or 1.10 I will be at cap again but the damage will be increased. We need other ways to reduce the damage especially the physical one. Another big problem is the penetration which is super high.

No no no no no....no...no. No

Reducing the overall damage will promote zerging. You won't ever be able to pick individual people off while they run with their train but the cumulative damage of train will still deck everything on it's path.

They just need to look at the individual skills that layer damage and cause insta-deaths, like Camo Hunter. Or just add a CP passive to mitigate phys damage a bit. If they want stam builds to hit harder than magicka builds as a counter-balance to magicka builds having more class skill utility , then just make the mitigation passive go up to 15% instead of the 25% of magic damage mitigation passives.

zornyan

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I said the same thing in the thread about hardened ward and people just don't get it.

The new sets that were added, the new v16 jewellery enchants, the higher base damage of legendary v16 weapons.... they all pushed weapon/spell damage much higher than it was possible before. From what I see form my guild mates their average *buffed* weapon/spell damage is now 30% to 40% more than what it was before the IC update. By comparison max stamina/magicka has only increased by 5-10%, as there are no sets that give 3k-5k max stamina/magicka as 5-piece bonus, like there are sets that give 500 spell/wpn damage.

So what has really happened?

1) Under-geared people are much more affected by the Battle Spirit nerfs. Gear is everything. If you're under-geared you're not competitive at all any more. Period

2) The game became more grindy as gear is everything. You want damage, you have to do the grinds to get the gear. All decent gear is BOP rather than BOE. Even crafted sets need you to grind for mats. So grind, grind, grind. Grindy game is grindy

3) Damage was not nerfed as hard as people think exactly because average weapon/spell damage has increased so much. Things that don't scale from wpn/spell damage were nerfed even more by comparison, with wards being a prime example. My calculations show that Hardened Ward was nerfed by over 25% compared to average damage (doesn't stop people asking for nerfs), not only 5% the Battle Spirit change suggests.

4) Small scale became much harder not only because the game mechanics promote zerging, but because offense is so much more potent than defense now. Blocking, Dodging, Bolting, Shielding etc... they all took much bigger nerfs than damage. As a result when you're outnumbered 3v1, unless the people are under-leveled it's much much harder to keep up with the damage and CC coming your way.

One observation, ALL heals now scale off weapon/spell damage except Dragon Blood. Vigor, Rally, Resto Heals, Templar heals... the lot. So unlike what you @olsborg say, I find that healing has "kind of" kept up with damage because it scales off exactly the same stats, hence Templar BoL spamming is still very very effective. If you a DK relying on GDB tho.....

Couple points I disagree with.

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

This could not be more wrong. Edit: Well it´s right that it´s only a "couple of hundred more" however a couple of hundred by a base spelldmg of anywhere between 1300 to 2000 is an increase of anywhere between and 50% (the latter being extreme cases).

Before 1.7 i was running about as high of a spelldmg build as one could get with a destruction staff build on my sorc. This resulted in unbuffed spelldmg of ~1960 and buffed somewhere around 2380. 4p martial 4p healer 2p torug 1p bs. I could have gotten 120 spelldmg more at the cost of 930 magica by going cyro light + adroitness.
This gave me just above 30k magica.

Now i´m running Julianos 5p, torug 2p, willpower 3p, Kena 1p. This puts me unbuffed at 2670 spelldmg, buffed is 3160. At 33.3k magica.

This means while maxmagica increase by 10% my buffed spelldmg increased by 25%.

Bare in mind these are two relatively comparable setups. If i had the desire to push my spelldmg i could get another 240 by going apprentice over thief mundus. Or i could build a template with kena 2p which is in no way as restrictive on magica use as you´re making it out to be - the main reason it was sh*t was the increase on dodge/block/breakfree which has been fixed and would i have a headpiece with a good trait i´d be running kena any day of the week.

With kena i´d be at ~ 3700 spelldmg buffed which would be a 35% increase.

Anyone running sustain setups in 1.6 however will have seen much higher increases in spelldmg as they basically gained ~200 by weapons and 174 per ring enchantment. One enchantment alone is more than a 10% base increase for sustained dmg setups of 1.6.

So maulkins estimations are pretty spot on.

But you were using a staff? Just dual wielding then would have given you a large chunk more spell damage.

Your 'average' build now has what? 38-44k magicka, 3100-3300 spell damage and 1500 ish regen. That's fully buffed, dual wielding etc.

Even look at stam builds, their damage actually hasn't increased much over what was possible before, 4200 odd weapon damage is average, but that was doable in 1.6. All they've really gained is more max stam.

Bashev

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I agree. I said it before. With the next patch they will have to reduce the damage with 75% not with 50%. The reason is that they introduced new sets that increase damage, new food, new enchants with higher stats. At the same time the mitigation form armor is capped at 50%. If I reached that mitigation at 1.6 then at 1.9 or 1.10 I will be at cap again but the damage will be increased. We need other ways to reduce the damage especially the physical one. Another big problem is the penetration which is super high.

No no no no no....no...no. No

Reducing the overall damage will promote zerging. You won't ever be able to pick individual people off while they run with their train but the cumulative damage of train will still deck everything on it's path.

They just need to look at the individual skills that layer damage and cause insta-deaths, like Camo Hunter. Or just add a CP passive to mitigate phys damage a bit. If they want stam builds to hit harder than magicka builds as a counter-balance to magicka builds having more class skill utility , then just make the mitigation passive go up to 15% instead of the 25% of magic damage mitigation passives.

I ve never said that I want them to lower the damage. This will happen if ZoS continue to follow ZoS logic. Implementing blind nerfs instead of trying to find what causes the problem.

Jura23

You may be correct, but you think if they removed dmg reduction now ppl would go back to their previous lower pdn/spell dmg? No, they wouldn't. And fighting would become ridiculous, because everyone would twoshot everyone.

Sublime

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Take spell damage, the only thing that's changed is willpower instead of cyrodil light, and glyphs are stronger, so maybe a couple hundred more, krag and torugs are still go to, and maybe 1 piece kena, yes you can use 2 but that means you'll only be casting a couple spells before your out of magicka, and isn't widely used or available.

Krags did not used to give spell damage. That's 226 spell damage right there. The base weapon damage from v14 to v16 is another 220. Molag Kena 1-piece is another 129. Maestrom staff another 189. Those values all unbuffed. Jewel glyphs give 179 spell damage and they used to give 110 which made them inferior to cost reduction and weren't used. Willpower was only an increase of 60 spell damage compared previous jewelry pieces like Healer set (129 to 189).

By switching 1 jewel enchant to damage as well as the above sets you have easily 700-800 spell damage more after buffs.

I have 2.8k spell damage buffed now compared to 1.8k with my seducer or 2.1k with Martial Knowledge in version 2.0 (pre IC). That's 50% and 30% up respectively and I know have more sustain than both my previous setups. And none of that increase comes from CPs or passives.

zornyan wrote: »

So jewellery has changed for my templar, and a bit more for higher level weapons, I see far more magicks than I used to though, where as 33k odd used to be normal, 45k is now easily possible, infact I recently hit 40k on my imperial templar, so no 10% racial passive, no mage mundus either.

No. You don't know where your magicka is coming from.

You get 200 more magicka on Infused big pieces and 80 more magicka on small divines compared to the v14 gear of version 2.0. That's less than 1k combined. You got another 500 extra from willpower (compared to Healer) another 600 from higher Arcane traits combined (200x3) and another 1k form food. Total difference less than 3k. Even with all my CPs and racial passive giving me 30% more (does not apply to food) I barely get 3.5k more. I went from 35k to 38k personally. A 10% increase

What probably happened in your case from 2.0 is a) you got more CPs and they give % increase to your stats and b) you got Undaunted Passives and mixed gear.

zornyan wrote: »

The only real benefits is magicka users with 2x kena, but obviously not very useful or used for my reasons stated above.even with the shield nerf, I still see people with 14k hardened wards in pvp, then stacking 2 more ontop of that for 20k+ shields.

The difference is more pronounced on spell damage but stamina also got huge buffs from Kena, Maelstrom Weapons and base weapon damage. They can also scale 1k higher than they could before. Ask stamina users they'll tell you.

"Still see people with 14k Hardened Ward". And? With the +45k max magicka builds of 1.6 you could get over 20k Hardened Wards easy. Personally, I have 11k now when I used to have 16k with 2.5k less magicka. The people that rock high magicka to make those 14k wards are making sacrifices elsewhere (like regen and spell damage) and the point stands that wards are much reduced both in nominal values and relative to damage in 2.1. The dude shows screenshots hitting +10k Surprise Attacks. That's not much different then the damage of 2.0 while wards are 30% smaller in comparison.

As I always say about you, maths is not your strong point.

People are hitting more magicka ans having stronger wards than ever, especially with cp catch up meaning more and more sorcs getting CP into bastion .

I still see, and people still show they have 14-15k hardened wards, or 25k worth of stacked shields. There's people with 49-50k magicka with plenty of regen and spell damage still.

Nope, you don't know what you're talking about as always.

Just close your eyes to all the maths and spew lies it's all the same to me

And what about people having 150k worth of shields in pve? That's 70k + in pvp.

Clip or never happend.