how do flat numbers and % bonuses stack? spell pen

zornyan

Just doing some numbers work and unsure how this stacks.

Example

DW 2 nirn swords is 18% spell penetration

Light armor buff gives (example) 5k spell pen

Now does that 18% mean 18% added to the 5k? Or 18% on top of.

So against a target with 20k spell resist, when attacking does it -5k from light armor THEN deducted 18% of the total value?

Or is it 18% of 20k so 3600+5000 meaning 8600 spell resist ignored?

Dracane

Flat value first, then percentage. Even debuffs like weakness of elements have priority.
So for example when I have 5200 from light armor and 5200 from weakness of elements and I have a golden nirnhoned weapon, I'm looking at 12272 spell penetration. So nirnhoned only provides an additonal ~1800 spell pen, this equals ~3% more damage and this can't be true though. I think, nirnhoned adds much more damage than only 3%. I think my logic here is just lackluster.

Weakness of elements for example attacks the base resistance of your target and nirnhoned on top, means the damage increase is even bigger. Because attacking the base resistance, means all the % resistance bonuses a target would get are getting less effective. means you actually take more than only 5200 spell resistance away from your target.

zornyan

Dracane wrote: »

Flat value first, then percentage. Even debuffs like weakness of elements have priority.
So for example when I have 5200 from light armor and 5200 from weakness of elements and I have a golden nirnhoned weapon, I'm looking at 12272 spell penetration. So nirnhoned only provides an additonal ~1800 spell pen, this equals ~3% more damage and this can't be true though. I think, nirnhoned adds much more damage than only 3%. I think my logic here is just lackluster.

Weakness of elements for example attacks the base resistance of your target and nirnhoned on top, means the damage increase is even bigger. Because attacking the base resistance, means all the % resistance bonuses a target would get are getting less effective. means you actually take more than only 5200 spell resistance away from your target.

That's what I was thinking, but as you say nirn is far more effective than that

See I thought it would be

18% spell pen on the targets total spell resist.

then another 5200 off of what's left after the 18% reduction.

Dracane

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Flat value first, then percentage. Even debuffs like weakness of elements have priority.
So for example when I have 5200 from light armor and 5200 from weakness of elements and I have a golden nirnhoned weapon, I'm looking at 12272 spell penetration. So nirnhoned only provides an additonal ~1800 spell pen, this equals ~3% more damage and this can't be true though. I think, nirnhoned adds much more damage than only 3%. I think my logic here is just lackluster.

Weakness of elements for example attacks the base resistance of your target and nirnhoned on top, means the damage increase is even bigger. Because attacking the base resistance, means all the % resistance bonuses a target would get are getting less effective. means you actually take more than only 5200 spell resistance away from your target.

That's what I was thinking, but as you say nirn is far more effective than that

See I thought it would be

18% spell pen on the targets total spell resist.

then another 5200 off of what's left after the 18% reduction.

There is but one way to figure this out.
Just use a nirnhoned weapon and make sure, you have no other source that provides spell penetration.
So unless there is no hidden spell penetration value that we can't determine, then nirnhoned should result in 0% addtional damage. I assume, it will increase damage dealt either way.

But would be an interesting experiment.

zornyan

Dracane wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Flat value first, then percentage. Even debuffs like weakness of elements have priority.
So for example when I have 5200 from light armor and 5200 from weakness of elements and I have a golden nirnhoned weapon, I'm looking at 12272 spell penetration. So nirnhoned only provides an additonal ~1800 spell pen, this equals ~3% more damage and this can't be true though. I think, nirnhoned adds much more damage than only 3%. I think my logic here is just lackluster.

Weakness of elements for example attacks the base resistance of your target and nirnhoned on top, means the damage increase is even bigger. Because attacking the base resistance, means all the % resistance bonuses a target would get are getting less effective. means you actually take more than only 5200 spell resistance away from your target.

That's what I was thinking, but as you say nirn is far more effective than that

See I thought it would be

18% spell pen on the targets total spell resist.

then another 5200 off of what's left after the 18% reduction.

There is but one way to figure this out.
Just use a nirnhoned weapon and make sure, you have no other source that provides spell penetration.
So unless there is no hidden spell penetration value that we can't determine, then nirnhoned should result in 0% addtional damage. I assume, it will increase damage dealt either way.

But would be an interesting experiment.

Surely then it would be usless for heavy armor users that have no penetration?

Unfortunately no damage figures on console

Dracane

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Flat value first, then percentage. Even debuffs like weakness of elements have priority.
So for example when I have 5200 from light armor and 5200 from weakness of elements and I have a golden nirnhoned weapon, I'm looking at 12272 spell penetration. So nirnhoned only provides an additonal ~1800 spell pen, this equals ~3% more damage and this can't be true though. I think, nirnhoned adds much more damage than only 3%. I think my logic here is just lackluster.

Weakness of elements for example attacks the base resistance of your target and nirnhoned on top, means the damage increase is even bigger. Because attacking the base resistance, means all the % resistance bonuses a target would get are getting less effective. means you actually take more than only 5200 spell resistance away from your target.

That's what I was thinking, but as you say nirn is far more effective than that

See I thought it would be

18% spell pen on the targets total spell resist.

then another 5200 off of what's left after the 18% reduction.

There is but one way to figure this out.
Just use a nirnhoned weapon and make sure, you have no other source that provides spell penetration.
So unless there is no hidden spell penetration value that we can't determine, then nirnhoned should result in 0% addtional damage. I assume, it will increase damage dealt either way.

But would be an interesting experiment.

Surely then it would be usless for heavy armor users that have no penetration?

Unfortunately no damage figures on console

Alright.... I'm going to test it for you give me a few minutes. I'm currently dealing with a bunch of Deathclaws

Dracane

Okay to make this quick, there either is a hidden base spell penetration to each character, just like there is a base resistance, or nirnhoned indeed takes away 18% spell resistance instead of increasing the available spell penetration. Both weapons were golden and had the same base damage value, just one with nirnhoned and one with defending

My crystal shard completely naked without any gear or source of spell pen
6703 damage
And naked with a nirnhoned weapon
7383

zornyan

Dracane wrote: »

Okay to make this quick, there either is a hidden base spell penetration to each character, just like there is a base resistance, or nirnhoned indeed takes away 18% spell resistance instead of increasing the available spell penetration. Both weapons were golden and had the same base damage value, just one with nirnhoned and one with defending

My crystal shard completely naked without any gear or source of spell pen
6703 damage
And naked with a nirnhoned weapon
7383

Thanks very much

So by that one nirn item adds around 9% damage?

So two should be a full 18% pen, increasing damage by about 15%? Plus light armor pen?

Need to go make me some nirn swords then!

Forestd16b14_ESO

Magic. Does it need a explanation?

zornyan

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Magic. Does it need a explanation?

For the average person. No not at all.

For a numbers freak like me that likes to theory craft and plan stats out. . Hell yeah!

Dracane

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Okay to make this quick, there either is a hidden base spell penetration to each character, just like there is a base resistance, or nirnhoned indeed takes away 18% spell resistance instead of increasing the available spell penetration. Both weapons were golden and had the same base damage value, just one with nirnhoned and one with defending

My crystal shard completely naked without any gear or source of spell pen
6703 damage
And naked with a nirnhoned weapon
7383

Thanks very much

So by that one nirn item adds around 9% damage?

So two should be a full 18% pen, increasing damage by about 15%? Plus light armor pen?

Need to go make me some nirn swords then!

No, it was 18% spell pen, because it was on a staff. Traits are only split into half when using 2 handed weapons.

zornyan

Dracane wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Okay to make this quick, there either is a hidden base spell penetration to each character, just like there is a base resistance, or nirnhoned indeed takes away 18% spell resistance instead of increasing the available spell penetration. Both weapons were golden and had the same base damage value, just one with nirnhoned and one with defending

My crystal shard completely naked without any gear or source of spell pen
6703 damage
And naked with a nirnhoned weapon
7383

Thanks very much

So by that one nirn item adds around 9% damage?

So two should be a full 18% pen, increasing damage by about 15%? Plus light armor pen?

Need to go make me some nirn swords then!

No, it was 18% spell pen, because it was on a staff. Traits are only split into half when using 2 handed weapons.

Ah sorry, thought it was a single sword.

So 18% spell pen is worth somewhere around 9-10% damage.

Meaning the 5.2k pen is different as it's a flat value, and 5200 is somewhere around 9% mitigation.

Reinforces what I thought, that even though my stamplars jabs has a higher tooltip, around 1300 vs 1200 on my magicka, spell pen actually pushes the magicka damage higher, as between them I've rarely noticed a difference, and since the pen is the last value to be calculated when attacking an enemy, it provides quite a good bonus.

caperon

YOU ARE NOT ACOUNTING THE SPELL DMG YOU GET JUST EQUIPING A WEAPON (AFFECTS TOOLTIP). CHECK IT WITH A NON TRAIT SAME QUALITY WEAPON.

Sry caps, but wanted to make it clear. The amount of dps increase that penetration gives you depends on the ressistance of your target too. There are some formulas in the arithmagic post in tamriel foundry.

zornyan

caperon wrote: »

YOU ARE NOT ACOUNTING THE SPELL DMG YOU GET JUST EQUIPING A WEAPON THAT AFFECTS TOOLTIP. CHECK IT WITH A NON TRAIT SAME QUALITY WEAPON.

Sry caps, but wanted to make it clear.

What from a staff? They have the lowest value damage, same as a 1H sword.

caperon

zornyan wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

YOU ARE NOT ACOUNTING THE SPELL DMG YOU GET JUST EQUIPING A WEAPON THAT AFFECTS TOOLTIP. CHECK IT WITH A NON TRAIT SAME QUALITY WEAPON.

Sry caps, but wanted to make it clear.

What from a staff? They have the lowest value damage, same as a 1H sword.

Dual wield gives more spell dmg = increased tooltip dmg, but you lose the medium weave. In some clases its not a problem, best example is sorcerer when executing, where pure spell dmg can be better than weaving or when overload.

In other classes medium weave is a big part of dps, like magicka DK, so the benefit of DW are not that clear.

Dracane

caperon wrote: »

YOU ARE NOT ACOUNTING THE SPELL DMG YOU GET JUST EQUIPING A WEAPON (AFFECTS TOOLTIP). CHECK IT WITH A NON TRAIT SAME QUALITY WEAPON.

Sry caps, but wanted to make it clear. The amount of dps increase that penetration gives you depends on the ressistance of your target too. There are some formulas in the arithmagic post in tamriel foundry.

If this was directed to me, both weapons were same level and same quality as I've pointed out.

Asayre

The mitigation formula works like this

Use a value of 66000 for v16 vs v16 in Cyrodiil or 50000 for veteran level mobs.

In your exampe, of a target with 20k spell resistance the mitigation assuming you also
1. applied Major Breach
2. have the Concentration passive from Light Armour (4884 additional focus on top of the 100 base focus)
3. equipped a legendary nirnhoned weapon (18% spell penetration)
4. have 1 point in spell erosion

zornyan

Asayre wrote: »

The mitigation formula works like this

Use a value of 66000 for v16 vs v16 in Cyrodiil or 50000 for veteran level mobs.

In your exampe, of a target with 20k spell resistance the mitigation assuming you also
1. applied Major Breach
2. have the Concentration passive from Light Armour (4884 additional focus on top of the 100 base focus)
3. equipped a legendary nirnhoned weapon (18% spell penetration)
4. have 1 point in spell erosion

So what does 0.16 mean?

Sorry my maths (other than really basic stuff) isn't the best atm.

And by your calcs, can I gather that spell erosion is a separate number rather than adding to your base pen?

So 18% from spell erosion isn't the same as 18% from nirnhoned spell pen?

As I thought they fixed it last update?

Asayre

Sorry where is the 0.16?

Yes spell erosion is just a separate number and works differently compared to ninrhoned.

The mitigation formula has been the same since IC.

zornyan

Asayre wrote: »

Sorry where is the 0.16?

Yes spell erosion is just a separate number and works differently compared to ninrhoned.

The mitigation formula has been the same since IC.

Sorry meant 0.106

Asayre

It means that if you were to take 1000 damage you would mitigate 10.6% of that so you will only receive 894 damage.

zornyan

Asayre wrote: »

It means that if you were to take 1000 damage you would mitigate 10.6% of that so you will only receive 894 damage.

Ah so that means a player with 20k spell resist would be left with 10.6% mitigation after all that penetration?

Asayre

Yes

zornyan

Asayre wrote: »

Yes

Brilliant, that's cleared it up for me, so by those numbers nirn should give me a good damage jump in pvp against heavy armor users, or light armor users stacking spell resist!

Definitely seems worthwhile now.

Forestd16b14_ESO

zornyan wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Magic. Does it need a explanation?

For the average person. No not at all.

For a numbers freak like me that likes to theory craft and plan stats out. . Hell yeah!

Number + Magic = bad time.

Simple. [ refer to meme for rest of the post.]