PVP Game Balance Suggestions

sabresandiego_ESO

PVP balance is actually very good considering the scope of this game, but a few builds stand tall above all others. Classifying builds into three tiers of effectiveness, A B and C I came up with the following. Tier A in pvp are Magicka Sorcerrors and Stamina Nightblades. Tier B is Magicka Nightblades, Stamina Sorcerrors, and Stamina Dragonknights. Tier C is Magicka Dragonknights and all forms of templar, none of which are "bad" but just aren't as good as the above. In achieving class balance, I don't think anything in particular needs to be "nerfed" aside from cloak spam and purge spam. Rather, I think some of the weaker builds should be improved. Here are some more details:

Starting with stamina nightblade, here is why they are a top tier class:

Stamina Nightblades:

1. They have a direct instant cast stamina attack, surprise attack, which allows them much more versatility than other stamina classes which mostly rely on wrecking blow combos

2. They have the best magicka support abilities of any stamina character with cloak and fear and some of the best ultimates

3. They have really good passives

Magicka Sorcs:

1. They have top tier survivability and mobility with shield spamming/stacking and bolt escape

2. All of their damage is ranged AND burst

3. They can stack completely into magicka, spellpower, and regen and ignore health and other stats almost completely unlike other classes

Bringing Other Builds Up To Par:

1. Cloak, Purge (and other dot removals), And AOE Group Healing all need spam protection similar to what bolt escape and dodge roll recieved. Damage shield spamming also needs to be addressed. These are the only "potential nerfs" necessary.

2. All classes need to be given a stamina attack that is competetive with wrecking blow, similar to what nightblades have with surprise attack. This attack does not necessarilly have to be as powerful as surprise attack (imagine how OP stamina DK could potentially be with stamina Lava Whip), but something balanced and competitive. Ideas are stamina lava whip, and a stamina crystal frags or endless fury.

3. Templars need multiple minor improvements in key areas. They have annoying casts and channels on too many abilities, too many abilities are highly situational, and their ultimates are particularly bad compared to other classes. Too many things to list but nothing major, they are not a weak class despite being in Tier C.

4. Damage over time effects need to be made more effective in PVP, and this could potentially be done by adding a cooldown on dot removals as was mentioned above. I believe somewhere in the range of 3-5 seconds is adequate, insuring that all dots get a minimum of at least 3-5 seconds of uptime. Right now, dots tend to be cleansed very rapidly.

5. Improve all underused morphs of abilities, and underused abilities. An example of this is forward momentum, which simply cannot be used in PVP because the burst heal from Rally is absolutely mandatory considering it is the only stamina burst heal in the entire game.

CyrusArya

hahaha sabre, love the subtle bias in how you describe NB vs Sorc. Anyways, while sorcs are ranged and burst, this is a double-edged knife because without a strong spammable dps skill in the way of surprise attack, swallow soul, or sweeps/jabs, any build that can resist a Sorcs burst will render the sorc neutered. And every single sorc skill can be resisted/mitigated with clever play. This is increasingly less of a problem the higher you stack your stats, but for the average sorc in average gear it's a major concern. Furthermore, while sorcs benefit the most from stacking into just magicka, stamina NBs also are most efficient simply stacking into just weapon damage, stamina, and stam regen- ignoring everything else. It's the same thing really. I get your point about hardened ward, but it's unfair to say sorcs are the only class that sink everything into 3 attributes and ignore everything else.

Also, I disagree that all forms of templar are tier C. Maybe stamina templar, but Magicka Templars can be very good. They might not have the tools to succeed solo like Sorc or NB, but in their own way they are very powerful. Namely, with having 10k+ burst heals that can keep themselves and all their allies afloat, along with their litany of support skills which make them the bar none best support class in the game. Not every class was designed to excel at every aspect of the game, but Magicka templars can definitely succeed solo and excel in groups so they are at least tier B IMO.

But that aside, I definitely agree with the core of your post that other classes should be BUFFED and brought up to par rather than Nightblades and Sorcs NERFED. That way everyone is happy and no one is punished

thechampxo

I think stamina nightblades should have some type of damage shield like sorcs lol otherwise we're just too squishy for dungeons trials etc

Dakrana_Thrazvoth

Just stop...

Ara_Valleria

Like really... just stop...

Ernest145

CyrusArya wrote: »

hahaha sabre, love the subtle bias in how you describe NB vs Sorc. Anyways, while sorcs are ranged and burst, this is a double-edged knife because without a strong spammable dps skill in the way of surprise attack, swallow soul, or sweeps/jabs, any build that can resist a Sorcs burst will render the sorc neutered. And every single sorc skill can be resisted/mitigated with clever play. This is increasingly less of a problem the higher you stack your stats, but for the average sorc in average gear it's a major concern. Furthermore, while sorcs benefit the most from stacking into just magicka, stamina NBs also are most efficient simply stacking into just weapon damage, stamina, and stam regen- ignoring everything else. It's the same thing really. I get your point about hardened ward, but it's unfair to say sorcs are the only class that sink everything into 3 attributes and ignore everything else.

Also, I disagree that all forms of templar are tier C. Maybe stamina templar, but Magicka Templars can be very good. They might not have the tools to succeed solo like Sorc or NB, but in their own way they are very powerful. Namely, with having 10k+ burst heals that can keep themselves and all their allies afloat, along with their litany of support skills which make them the bar none best support class in the game. Not every class was designed to excel at every aspect of the game, but Magicka templars can definitely succeed solo and excel in groups so they are at least tier B IMO.

But that aside, I definitely agree with the core of your post that other classes should be BUFFED and brought up to par rather than Nightblades and Sorcs NERFED. That way everyone is happy and no one is punished

Difference between a stam nb and majicka sorc stacking only max /dmg/regen is that they will not be anywhere near as tank as a sorc is.

CyrusArya

@Ernest145 And a sorc wont have near the on demand burst dps that a stamina NB has. Sorcs have no spammable skills, all are timed. NB has 2 powerful spammable skills. Sorc has to wait for frag to proc and curse to go off before the damage starts pouring in. Meanwhile, a NB can literally ambush and spam Surprise Attack dealing tens of thousands of damage before the sorc can even proc a single frag. Oh, and who needs tankiness when you can just cloak away whenever youd like? A good stamblade can cloak away, regen stats, then come back rejuvenated. Rinse and repeat. Magicka Sorc and Stamblade are equal in their power.

Stamina NB is the first to deserve a nerf. Nerf surprise attack and then we can talk about sorc shields. But for the record, im against all nerfs.

SemiD4rkness

Just nerf nightblades and the game would be alright

TheLaw

I don't really consider the game balanced. You're now forced to focus on one stat, you're forced to go heavy damage or heavy defense. Right now PVP is nearly more stat oriented than skill oriented. ESO PVP is truly a sad and broken reflection of what it was a year ago. The result of this and many other issues has killed PVP, at least on PC. Cyrodiil is as baron as ever and the Imperial City is more of a PVE zone than Craglorn. Common sense and vision are essential components missing from their "development" process.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

Like really... just stop...

says the guy who play 3 (!!) NB and 1 sorcerer ! loled so hard ! thx dude !

C0pp3rhead

As a Templar, I agree with some of OP's suggestions.

Damage shield spamming also needs to be addressed

This was already addressed a few patches ago. I think the issue at hand is that Sorc shields scale off of max magicka whereas many other shields scale off of max health or spell power. Allowing for a morph of the templar shield to scale off of max magicka would go a long way to giving us the protection we need.

All classes need to be given a stamina attack that is competetive (sic) with wrecking blow,

I disagree. The problem is that WB is un-interruptable, can double-CC, and can hit you even when you are out of range. The skill itself is not the problem; the mechanics surrounding it are bugged/broken. Giving all classes a crazy skill like this is not the answer.

Templars need multiple minor improvements in key areas.

Yes. There are some strange GCD issues at work with many skills. Our gap-closer is still mostly broken. Without an escape ability, you would think Templars would have some CC capability, but our CC abilities are either single target, broken, or only partially effective.

Damage over time effects need to be made more effective in PVP

I disagree. This isn't WoW where stacking DoT effects is of utmost importance. The critical skill in ESO is using your DoTs in conjunction with your damage abilities to produce high burst damage.

Improve all underused morphs of abilities, and underused abilities.

This has been an ongoing process for Zeni since day 1. The problem is that they often "fix" skills by nerfing them or changing game mechanics in such a way that one morph is rendered useless. In other words, they change underlying mechanics instead of fixing the ability itself.


Another huge issue that will also clear up some imbalance issues would be to fix the double-CC bug mentioned in the WB section. Because CC immunity does not trigger until after the CC-break, it is possible to CC a player while they are flat on their back or before they use Break Free. Fixing this will decrease WB spamming as well as some questionable ganking tactics.

Strider_Roshin

Nightblades don't need to be nerfed. It's a very well balanced class. I would say the same about sorcs however the fact that their shields scale off of their max magicka and not max health is an issue in my eyes. Imagine how powerful blazing shields would be if the same applied to that. I think a stamina whip would please a lot of Dragonknights although I'm not sure of it'll be used once they get it. Templars need an improvement to their mobility; maybe an increase to movement speed after using focus charge will do the trick. Those are my thoughts.

eliisra

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nightblades don't need to be nerfed. It's a very well balanced class. I would say the same about sorcs however the fact that their shields scale off of their max magicka and not max health is an issue in my eyes. Imagine how powerful blazing shields would be if the same applied to that. I think a stamina whip would please a lot of Dragonknights although I'm not sure of it'll be used once they get it. Templars need an improvement to their mobility; maybe an increase to movement speed after using focus charge will do the trick. Those are my thoughts.

Fyi it wouldn't be simliar to Hardened Ward. Reason it's so damn big is also the secondary effect, with shield strength increased by 33% on self.

If shields like Obsidian- or Sun Shield had a morph scaling of max magicka(instead of health) they be the same size as Harness Magicka. So around 6k for your average magicka build, that didn't pump all points into bastion. I dont think that's totally out there, considering DK's and templars also lack escape and mobility and therefore cant pumps everything into magicka, spell power and bastion.

Shields scaling of health offers no protection at all in PvP right now, since stacking health is about as useful as stacking role players. While the sorc shield scaling of magicka and 33% increase on self, is pretty unaffected by the nerf. ZoS clearly didn't think that one through.

Than again, shield stack was always dreadfully boring game play. I'm sure ZoS has their own perfect solution to PvP balance, like increasing battle spirit to 75% next major patch

FriedEggSandwich

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nightblades don't need to be nerfed. It's a very well balanced class. I would say the same about sorcs however the fact that their shields scale off of their max magicka and not max health is an issue in my eyes. Imagine how powerful blazing shields would be if the same applied to that. I think a stamina whip would please a lot of Dragonknights although I'm not sure of it'll be used once they get it. Templars need an improvement to their mobility; maybe an increase to movement speed after using focus charge will do the trick. Those are my thoughts.

Nah sorcs shield scaling off health would ruin the class. There is a thread discussing this idea here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/228132/should-sorc-shields-scale-of-health/p1

The issue in my eyes is that every class wants to be able to run around solo in an mmo.

C0pp3rhead

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nightblades don't need to be nerfed. It's a very well balanced class. I would say the same about sorcs however the fact that their shields scale off of their max magicka and not max health is an issue in my eyes. Imagine how powerful blazing shields would be if the same applied to that. I think a stamina whip would please a lot of Dragonknights although I'm not sure of it'll be used once they get it. Templars need an improvement to their mobility; maybe an increase to movement speed after using focus charge will do the trick. Those are my thoughts.

Nah sorcs shield scaling off health would ruin the class. There is a thread discussing this idea here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/228132/should-sorc-shields-scale-of-health/p1

The issue in my eyes is that every class wants to be able to run around solo in an mmo.

Agreed. The answer is not nerf sorcs. The answer should be: give other classes a way to compete. As for the templar shield, one morph should continue to scale off max health (for PvE tanking), and the other morph should scale off of max magicka (for PvP protekshuns).

I'm not as familiar with the DK dmg shields. No idea what needs to happen there.

Dyride

eliisra wrote: »

...Shields scaling of health offers no protection at all in PvP right now, since stacking health is about as useful as stacking role players. While the sorc shield scaling of magicka and 33% increase on self, is pretty unaffected by the nerf. ZoS clearly didn't think that one through.

Than again, shield stack was always dreadfully boring game play. I'm sure ZoS has their own perfect solution to PvP balance, like increasing battle spirit to 75% next major patch

The bolded part is what I wish they had addressed instead of the huge blanket nerfs they decided to go with. All hardened ward needed was about a 10-15% reduction. Instead they remain a incredible strong shield as compared to anything else.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

NB and sorcerer lobbying to stay on top of the 2 other classes is killing the game... Look at those posts : "nb are perfectly balanced", nerf sorcerer shield would kill the class" etc etc.

I do play all classes except DK, and i see how godlike are my nb and sorcerer compared to my templar. So, balancing the game begins with : no shield stacking, spam penalty for any escape ability like streak and dodge roll are (it must include cloak), give back soft caps in order to don't allow full stack on one stat, rework the templar passives in order to have a better ressource management in line with other classes, gives dk and templars mobility class based, give templar a global rework (aoe cc etc etc).

All those things to BALANCE the game will not be achieved because zos don't give a *** and because players are selfish and just want to be stronger" than the others.

So, 2 solutions :
1. if you don't have a nb or sorcerer, just reroll, preferably nb because i'll really LOL when everyone will permasneak and never found someone to fight
2. delete this game, as i did, and as more and more people do

Bashev

You pretty much summarized the PvP meta. As you asked for nerfs (small) for 2 classes and this probably 60% or 70% of the population right now in Cyro be prepared for L2P comments.

3-5 seconds CD to remove dots is nothing. Most of the DoTs tick every 2 seconds. 2 ticks are not enough for DPS with the damage reduction. When dot is purged it should do immediately half of the damage that it was supposed to do at purge. Ground DoTs do not count, neither channel abilities.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Bashev wrote: »

You pretty much summarized the PvP meta. As you asked for nerfs (small) for 2 classes and this probably 60% or 70% of the population right now in Cyro be prepared for L2P comments.

3-5 seconds CD to remove dots is nothing. Most of the DoTs tick every 2 seconds. 2 ticks are not enough for DPS with the damage reduction. When dot is purged it should do immediately half of the damage that it was supposed to do at purge. Ground DoTs do not count, neither channel abilities.

yeah i know, i do have L2P responses anytime i say the true (nb and sorcerers are godlike compared to dk and templars) but what people don't want to see is that i do play those classes, v16 full stuff, and i can see the HUUUUUGGGEEEE difference.

But again i don't care, i have delete this joke called ESO