The casuals have won...

smokebudsb16_ESO

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

rager82b14_ESO

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

Or maybe you are just so good, that you and your group has achieve a level that can't be balanced around. You have master MMOS. Nothing left for you to do. Might as well just give up and move on.

Jura23

go PvP, there you have hard mode.

Diamond_10

you can not compare vet arena to vet wgt. pre-nerf vet wgt was do-able with a slightly above average group. to do arena you have to be elite, have the champ points, and have the gear/build setup for it.

Malmai

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

It didn't changed that much...

rager82b14_ESO

Malmai wrote: »

It didn't changed that much...

That is why his skills are on the next level. He should retire.

MADCIBERKITER

So true but it is not Zenimax fault if a vast majority of players are morons! When stupid play intelligent game this is 2hat happens! Sad.

Avenias

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

Or maybe you are just so good, that you and your group has achieve a level that can'e be balance around. You have master MMOS. Nothing left for you to do. Might as well just give up and move on.

What he wants is to get ppl to grind mindlessly for gears just to be able to play the game, just like what he did. Many time ppl forget that its just a bloody game and you play for fun and meet new ppl online. That is how a typical f2p mmorpg is designed, grind grind grind......more grind just to qualify to run a dungeon, until then dont even think about entering a dungeon. This is a buy to play game and as such the devs ought to dam well make sure that the content can be played by as many ppl as possible. So he can basically take his f2p model and shuve it up his smelly part of his body.

smokebudsb16_ESO

I didnt grind mindlessly for gear,. and im not elite,..i only just reached 300 champion points today,. we spent 6h on inhibitor trying to kill it on our 1st attempt,. all you needed was 4 players that could communicate, and have a understanding of how to play their character and some practise to do wgtv. and you say they didnt change it much,. untill the nerf there were plenty of situation that could result in a death,. now there is virtually none, unless u go afk.

Oh_Skrivva

Well you can spend more time getting on leaderboards for vet maelstrom arena.

Brrrofski

Because of games like COD.

All the best stuff available to everyone instantly.

Challenge and reward for beating it has been ripped out of games.

It's turned all all all, now now now.

Avenias

MADCIBERKITER wrote: »

So true but it is not Zenimax fault if a vast majority of players are morons! When stupid play intelligent game this is 2hat happens! Sad.

This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with gears and time invested

Brrrofski wrote: »

Because of games like COD.

All the best stuff available to everyone instantly.

Challenge and reward for beating it has been ripped out of games.

It's turned all all all, now now now.

So you are saying its not possible to design a game where you can have challenge and give access to a large player base at the same time?

NativeJoe

Here's how I feel about it... If i pay 25 dollars for the content. I should be able to "do" the content. If you want to throw crazy hard dungeons somewhere, make it free and accessable to everyone. Thats just my two cents* , sorry to all the people who ruthlessly ground CP points for weeks upon weeks, and to those that have 100+ days played on their character. I feel ur pain, because I to have walked this path (played wow for 10 years and had a power reset every single expansion, and ALL the old dungeons became obsolete even tho they where challenging) but such is the path of a mmo. u got to be cream of the crop. now it's a new expansion, time to move on to the next *thing* for farm and teach the rest of us.

Scyantific

Avenias wrote: »

MADCIBERKITER wrote: »

So true but it is not Zenimax fault if a vast majority of players are morons! When stupid play intelligent game this is 2hat happens! Sad.

This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with gears and time invested

Brrrofski wrote: »

Because of games like COD.

All the best stuff available to everyone instantly.

Challenge and reward for beating it has been ripped out of games.

It's turned all all all, now now now.

So you are saying its not possible to design a game where you can have challenge and give access to a large player base at the same time?

That's exactly what veteran mode dungeons were for.

Except I WANT TO DO ALL THE CONTENT happened and people started crying when Vet mode IC dungeons were facerolling them so ZOS catered to the I WANT TO DO ALL THE CONTENT crowd and nerfed the *** out of them.

stonerskate109

I heal wgt like every other day and I've never used healing Springs in it

zornyan

NativeJoe wrote: »

Here's how I feel about it... If i pay 25 dollars for the content. I should be able to "do" the content. If you want to throw crazy hard dungeons somewhere, make it free and accessable to everyone. Thats just my two cents* , sorry to all the people who ruthlessly ground CP points for weeks upon weeks, and to those that have 100+ days played on their character. I feel ur pain, because I to have walked this path (played wow for 10 years and had a power reset every single expansion, and ALL the old dungeons became obsolete even tho they where challenging) but such is the path of a mmo. u got to be cream of the crop. now it's a new expansion, time to move on to the next *thing* for farm and teach the rest of us.

But that's like saying I just bought dark souls and it's too hard so they should nerf the game just for me?

Or like I did, spend a few days learning, put the hours in and come back to it.

lestaudenmaierub17_ESO

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

I fully expect to see you on ESPN pretty soon in one of those ESL leagues.

Brrrofski

Avenias wrote: »

MADCIBERKITER wrote: »

So true but it is not Zenimax fault if a vast majority of players are morons! When stupid play intelligent game this is 2hat happens! Sad.

This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with gears and time invested

Brrrofski wrote: »

Because of games like COD.

All the best stuff available to everyone instantly.

Challenge and reward for beating it has been ripped out of games.

It's turned all all all, now now now.

So you are saying its not possible to design a game where you can have challenge and give access to a large player base at the same time?

Not a multiplayer game, no.

People play more or are more skilled so are better than others.

Unfortunately, life isn't fair and we aren't all equal. I learned that a long time ago.

I like being an underdog, having a challenge, testing myself and learning how to achieve something.

That applies to real life and gaming.

Hateanthem

I wouldn't say they have "won". In the Elder Scrolls franchise, a player can usually complete all content in the game. There really isn't a difficulty barrier fo them to hurdle. ESO has attracted many of those players, and they expect this game to work like Skyrim or Oblivian. They get mad when they don't have access to everything.

I'm learning that's just the way it is going to be with ESO.

Malmai

Brrrofski wrote: »

Because of games like COD.

All the best stuff available to everyone instantly.

Challenge and reward for beating it has been ripped out of games.

It's turned all all all, now now now.

Sure bro everyday im doin vICP and vWGT and farming teeth from the release of the IC and guess what ? Nope to drops.

Unstable.Pixel

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

Come on smokes... you know us casuals pay the bills for ZoS and keep the lights on, we get what we want

dodgehopper_ESO

Jura23 wrote: »

go PvP, there you have hard mode.

I totally agree. There's no accounting for player skill versus simplistic boss mechanics. Bosses in mmo's aren't 'smart' by any degree. The only challenge with bosses usually is they have mechanics that challenge smart gameplay (ie: a player). I prefer fighting other players for challenge mode usually, although I like the idea of this arena coming up. If I understand what that arena is, TSW has something similar called Scenarios, which is a great way to test skills.

Evandus

To increase the number of people actually willing and able to run the content, nerfs were needed. And, of course, to disallow people from exploiting the mechanics.

Comparatively, I'm guessing that somewhere less than 1% of the player base was completing those dungeons. ZOS of course has the actual numbers. But the number of hours spent attempting to find a pug group to run this speaks volumes to me. Facts were that I wasted entire evenings spamming zone chat, with groupfinder running, and harassing my in game guilds. All of that effort produced one run of WGT, that's it.

In that sense the casuals will always win. If the masses are avoiding something intentionally in the game, the bean counters will notice and recommend changes.

Perhaps the nerfs were too harsh. I couldn't say as I've only run WGT one time. When I was in there though, it didn't seem impossible or overly difficult. So I empathize with folks that are disappointed.

Ultimately though, those disappointed are laughably outnumbered as a demographic representation of the population base. This is true regardless of how many threads pop up complaining about it.

Korah_Eaglecry

MADCIBERKITER wrote: »

So true but it is not Zenimax fault if a vast majority of players are morons! When stupid play intelligent game this is 2hat happens! Sad.

When hurrdurrr dupid der do dings.


What? Please for the love of Meridia. If youre going to try and insult people by calling them stupid. At the very least form a sentence that has some semblance of structure and purpose.

phbell

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

It seems to me that the game development is being driven by the lowest denominator. In other words, those that whine the loudest drive the changes. Too many playing this game are unwilling to put in the effort, thought, research, and play time to develop their character and game -- rather they would prefer to claim "they have a life" (suggesting that others who do put in the effort do not) and snivel about how hard it is to play. This reminds me of all the kids with a high school education complaining because they cannot get an $80K/year job. "Instant Gratification" is right. The simple fact is that practice works, experience works, and learning from failures teaches. Dungeons that used to thump me got easier as we mastered the mechanics.

I have the growing impression that Zenimax is willing to sacrifice the experience and gains of those players that have been loyal, steady customers from the start to enhance the experience of those new players who want "it all" now. Next up on the chopping block will be Vet Rankings. In the real world, loyal long time customers are treasured; here that seems less the case.

While I have yet to beat ICP or WGT at VR16 level I am really disappointed at the decision to nerf them because now I will never know the satisfaction of completing them at level. Its a shame, really.

vamp_emily

They need to create a "I win" button and charge 25 dollars, so the casuals can have everything given to them. Oh wait, pushing a button is might be to hard.

Phinix1

Jura23 wrote: »

go PvP, there you have hard mode.

This.

Sorry, but I hate the whole concept of the "leader board" and this obsession of human culture with constantly comparing themselves to others to feel they have achieved something.

Yes, I am aware it is in our primal genetics. I don't care. Rise the ef above, man!

Games fail when developers start bending over backwards to cater to the tiny 1-5% demographic that whines and screams for more challenging content, then rushes through it to fap on the leaderboard and make "we're so amazing come at me brah" posts on the forums and youtube that the quality of content suffers and we end up seeing phoned-in cheap 1-shot mechanics and spec-specific balance just for the sake of it.

Play how you want... except if you want to play the content. Not a recipe for success.

Uriel_Nocturne

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

This whole "Hardcore v. Casual" argument is about as ignorant and arrogant as it gets.

Grow up.

Where's the "Dislike" button...

Uriel_Nocturne

vamp_emily wrote: »

They need to create a "I win" button and charge 25 dollars, so the casuals can have everything given to them. Oh wait, pushing a button is might be to hard.

Writing in the English language is apparently very difficult as well...

Helgi_Skotina

It is PvE. It cant be hard.

Pangnirtung

smokebudsb16_ESO wrote: »

Just did a vet wgt v16,. and wow Vet mode is now so easy to do, the tank can full on dps and just need healing springs from a dd.. so now i guess the only thing remotely challenging in this MMO is the vet solo arena... why zos why

And it wouldn't matter if zos introduced a expert mode, since it would result in the "casuals" not being able to do it, then a nerf.. i never understood why people feel they need to be able to do all content in a mmo regardless of how ill prepared and unpractised they are.. what ever happened to min/maxing your character, learning the skill set and practising the mechanics of a dungeon to finally beat it giving a sense of accomplishment, and then from there get better and better run times.

Its sad to say but we raised a instant gratification generation,

This game is meant to be played by all levels.

If you want something specifically tailored to your skill level maybe you are better suited to something like Diablo where you can bump up the difficulty.

You can't and will never please everybody with an MMO.