Is Sithis currently the strongest being in Elder Scrolls?

Digielf

So as i understood at the begining it was the 2 deites Anu and Padomey, when they fought they both died and each of them created 1 lesser deity , Anu made Anui-El/Auri-El and Padomey made Sithis(the Dark Brotherhood deity). Then Auri-El created the Et'ada which are the spirits gods/demons etc and Sithis created Lorkhan who was another being but died in order to create other otherwordly beings in the mortal plane.

BUT, after this there is a revelation from the elves that says Auri-El is acctualy Akatosh, the leader of the Divines. That means Sithis is currently the strongest being he isnt a divine or a daedric prince but he is a deity above them all. Unless if he is the opposite of Akatosh , the leader of the daedric princes or something.

WolffenBloodseeker

Sithis is more of a force than a sentient being, there is a theory that the Sithis worshiped by the dark brotherhood is actually Mephala in disguise (since Mephala is the prince of lies, sex, murder, secrets and plots)

and if i remember correctly there is no "revelation" that Auri-El is actually Akatosh, Akatosh was "created" by the Marukhati Selectives when they danced around the staff of Towers to remove the elven traits from the god of time, after this the time broke and Akatosh became a separated entity from Auri-El that always existed since time is non-linear to him.

Waffennacht

Well from what I understand many cultures in the TES world have their own lore which may or may not be entirely accurate.

I remember speaking to an NPC in Skyrim (the game) and they went on about how Sithis is the great void, the great nothing that was tricked into creating all the other divines after Sithis had created this one individual.

Which sounds a lot like what you said, only from the perspective of a Sithis follower in the world.

Theoretically, I always believed, that yes Sithis is the most powerful, but also the least involved, as the great nothing, it is more akin to the antithesis of nirn's existence.

Now from what little I have read, beings both mortal and immortal, can create their own planes. Such would be the plane in which soul gemmed souls go to (can't remember the name) or the plane of the (again name eludes me) created by the information being.

So in the lore, they say its possible the Dwemer (which were under ground elves, not falmer, though they created the falmer... another story) created their own plane and they transcended there (lead by their leader), seeing as this probably happen ned according to the lore. They may be at a level of "power" equal to that of the immortals.

Keepercraft

Did Sithis is an being?
Did god is an being?
God can be an being, when you for example talking about anthropomorphic-god.

In lore Sithis or Padomay is not an being, but a force identified as "Darkness". That force is not the strongest because have opposite Anu.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay

Gidorick

I reject that Auri-El is Akatosh.

Out of the conflict between Anu and Padomey (think two sides of the same coin of Aurbis) change came about and two beings manifested. Anuiel (the unchanging) and Sithis (chaos incarnate).

Sithis influences and enables change but doesn't directly create change himself. Sithis isn't particularly concerned with anything but change. Much in the same way Lorkhan persuaded Magnus to design Mundus and the other Et'Ada to create Mundus, Sithis influences change but doesn't make change himself.

The Divines were concerned with creating Mundus and its creation consumed them and their power, so one could assume that individually Daedra (who refused to sacrifice themselves to create Mundus) are more powerful than each individual Aedra, but only within their own realm.... Since Mundus is essentially the manifestation of the Aedra's power, they are more intricately tied to Mundus. Daedra can perpetuate events upon Mundus, but they aren't part of mundus.

Then consider that it took all the daedra combined to control and change Jyggalag into Sheogorath. Why did they do this? They had become fearful and jealous of him. Why fear something that is weaker than you? Why be jealous of something unless they are or have something you can't be or can't have. Using this thought... Jyggalag is the most powerful Daedra, individually.

When we speak of strength or power we need to first quantify what that exactly means? I assume you mean who can cause the most change on or within mundus that cannot be stopped or changed by another. If that's the case. Then it's Talos, for he is the only one to ever truly achieve CHIM, the power or Aurbis. Even the gods and daedra cannot achieve CHIM and cannot know the mind of Aurbis.

If we are speaking about the second era pre-Talos Elder Scrolls, then we have to look to the Daedra... and considering what was stated above regarding Jyggalag, I'd have to say Sheogorath, whose power is kept in check beneath his madness.

If you want to discount Uncle Sheo because he's not in control of that power, then I would have to say Mephala. Mephala is the only Daedra that is in communion with Sithis and is considered one of the first and strongest Daedra (after Jyggalag, of course).

Now consider the first of the Et'Ada to form an identity, and retain most of their power... was Akatosh, who is the god of time. It is the power of Akatosh that maintains the barrier between oblivion and mundus... preventing the ultimate change is perhaps an even greater power than the will to bring about change. Remember, Dragon Breaks are times in which Akatosh temporarily loses control of time and the power and will of Sithis directly influences the shape of Mundus.

So we are sort of at an impasse... which is stronger? The raging river which shapes the land or the damn that contains it?

Anyway, here's something I made a couple months ago in "celebration" of TES lore. Lots of my own interpretations here.


Here was the thread I posted this in: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194676/visualization-of-the-pantheon-of-the-elder-scrolls-final-version-uploaded-d/p1

Celenaro

Anu is the prime anuic entity and Padomey is the prime padomeic entity. Neither are conscious gods like the Daedric Princes. They're primal forces of nature. Anuiel and Sithis are the souls of Anu and Padomey respectively and their interaction created the Aurbis--the universe in which Oblivion, Mundus, and Aetherius exist. The interaction between Anuiel and Sithis created the et'ada (original spirits). Auriel is the chief anuic spirit and Lorkhan is the chief padomaic spirit. The Aedra, Daedra, and Magne-ge (et'ada who followed Magnus back to Aetherius; Meridia is a Magne-ge who was cast out of Aetherius by her father Magnus for trying to rally other et'ada to return to Mundus) are all et'ada. The Aedra gave their power to create Mundus and are "dead" in the sense that their power is limited to Mundus and they aren't really conscious like the Daedra or mortals. The Daedra did not give their power to create Mundus but remain interested in it (Mundus is the realm of limitations and infinite possibilites while Aetherius is the realm of limitless and infinite change and Oblivion is static and capable only of imitation) and so remain in Oblivion to screw with mortals. Auri'el was a champion of elves and Lorkhan a champion of men. After they discovered Lorkhan's "treachery" the Aedra met at Ada-Mantia (Akatosh's spaceship better known as Adamantine Tower on the now Direnni-controlled island of Balfiera in the Illiac Bay). Lorkhan's heart was cut from his chest by Trinimac (later Malacath after Boethiah ate him and *** him out) and Auri-el tied it to an arrow and shot it far to the east where it landed in the ocean and formed Vvardenfell and Red Mountain. The Heart of Lorkhan was first used by the Dwemer to build Numidium, then by the Tribunal of Morrowind to become living gods after the Dwemer attempted to escape Mundus by becoming the golden skin of Numidium. Because the Heart of Lorkhan is tied to Nirn the only thing the Dwemer succeeded in doing is permanently strand themselves on Nirn. Lorkhan's corpse is related to the moons--some say his corpse are Masser and Secunda while others believe that his corpse is a third Dark Moon that only appears when a Mane is born. Lorkhan's spirit was fractured into a series of reincarnated mortal avatars called Shezzarines who later coalesced in some capacity to become the most power entity in all of the Elder Scrolls franchise---Talos. Auri-el gathered his followers outside of Ada-Mantia and ascended to Aetherius to demonstrate to them how to folllow. The elves then built various Mythic Towers (like the Crystal Tower in the Summerset Isles or the White-Gold Tower in Cyrodiil) to help them achieve this ascension but succeeded only in strengthening the Mundus.

So where does Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, come into the story? Sometime in the first era the Marukhati Selective (a cult that followed the teachings of Marukh, one of St Alessia's generals) danced on top of Ada-Mantia in a way that reshaped reality (CHIM). Their goal was to remove the elven aspects of Auriel and make him a god of men. They did this by mixing Auriel the Eagle with Lorkhan the Snake. What happens when you combine an eagle and a snake? You get a dragon.

Now Sithis is a bit of a mystery. Sithis the entity is almost certainly NOT the god of the Dark Brotherhood. The Dark Brotherhood is being misled by the Night Mother. Who is the Night Mother? Current theories suggest two possibilities: Mephala the Webspinner who delights in manipulating mortals; and Vivec the usurper of Mephala who, as the most balanced of the Tribunal, has both male and female forms.

So why did Lorkhan want to create Mundus? Well, it's a long story and I recommend you check out the Imperial Library. The short version is that Lorkhan wandered to the edge of the Aurbis and realized that the entire universe is the dream of the Amaranth Anu (not to be confused with his reflection in his dream, Anu). Anu the Amaranth fought a terrible battle with Padomay over Nirni their shared love in his universe and withdrew to sleep eternally after that didn't work out so well. Lorkhan came to understand this and believed that a realm of limitation and possibility, Mundus, would need to be created so that the spirits who dwelt there (mortals) could reach the same realization and become new Amaranths to spawn new universes. Of the mortals who reached this understanding, most were unable to grasp that they both did and did not exist and thus accidentally erased themselves from history. Only three mortals ever succeeded: Talos, who through CHIM remade himself and became the Red Jewel of Conquest and the Ruling King of Nirn; Vivec, who through CHIM remade himself to become a true god who lived through previous kalpas (cycles of Mundus...essentially every now and then Alduin eats the world and it restarts with new variations. The dreugh were the dominant species in a previous kalpa and it is heavily implied that Molag Bal was a mortal who became a god in the dreugh kalpa.); and Jubal who unmade the Numidium after it reappeared from its eternal time war with Altmeri time wizards (Talos both succeeded and failed in conquering Summerset with Numidium) and destroyed Nirn in the 5th era. The survivors of the destruction of Nirn now live on the moons Masser and Secunda and potentially the Aedric planets. Jubal and Lady Vivec unite and their offspring is the new amaranth.

Elder Scrolls lore is... well... if you want to learn about it you quickly find yourself deep in the rabbit hole. It's crazy and complicated.

Gidorick

Celenaro, you're speaking of events in Michael Kirkbride's C0DA? I know he's written about the end of Nirn (in the "future" of Skyrim) but I've never read anything myself. I have never heard of Jubal so I assume that's part of Kirkbride's C0DA.

Celenaro

Gidorick wrote: »

Celenaro, you're speaking of events in Michael Kirkbride's C0DA? I know he's written about the end of Nirn (in the "future" of Skyrim) but I've never read anything myself. I have never heard of Jubal so I assume that's part of Kirkbride's C0DA.

The last paragraph is C0DA. The rest are not.

Levo18

Akatosh > Anything

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

Celenaro, you're speaking of events in Michael Kirkbride's C0DA? I know he's written about the end of Nirn (in the "future" of Skyrim) but I've never read anything myself. I have never heard of Jubal so I assume that's part of Kirkbride's C0DA.

Not to mention its Non-Canon Fanfiction

Celenaro

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Celenaro, you're speaking of events in Michael Kirkbride's C0DA? I know he's written about the end of Nirn (in the "future" of Skyrim) but I've never read anything myself. I have never heard of Jubal so I assume that's part of Kirkbride's C0DA.

Not to mention its Non-Canon Fanfiction

It's more like quasi-canon pending further Elder Scrolls games. BGS has previously used MK's brain droppings in their games and they've said that they think C0DA is really interesting. Heimskr's Many-Headed Talos speech was one such MK "fanfiction", for example.

Gidorick

Celenaro wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Celenaro, you're speaking of events in Michael Kirkbride's C0DA? I know he's written about the end of Nirn (in the "future" of Skyrim) but I've never read anything myself. I have never heard of Jubal so I assume that's part of Kirkbride's C0DA.

Not to mention its Non-Canon Fanfiction

It's more like quasi-canon pending further Elder Scrolls games. BGS has previously used MK's brain droppings in their games and they've said that they think C0DA is really interesting. Heimskr's Many-Headed Talos speech was one such MK "fanfiction", for example.

To me it would be like if George Lucas wrote books that took place after episode 6. It's not "canon"... but it's more than fanfiction. It's creator-fiction.

Keepercraft

Celenaro wrote: »

Anu is the prime anuic entity and Padomey is the prime padomeic entity. Neither are conscious gods like the Daedric Princes. They're primal forces of nature. Anuiel and Sithis are the souls of Anu and Padomey respectively and their interaction created the Aurbis--the universe in which Oblivion, Mundus, and Aetherius exist. The interaction between Anuiel and Sithis created the et'ada (original spirits). Auriel is the chief anuic spirit and Lorkhan is the chief padomaic spirit. The Aedra, Daedra, and Magne-ge (et'ada who followed Magnus back to Aetherius; Meridia is a Magne-ge who was cast out of Aetherius by her father Magnus for trying to rally other et'ada to return to Mundus) are all et'ada. The Aedra gave their power to create Mundus and are "dead" in the sense that their power is limited to Mundus and they aren't really conscious like the Daedra or mortals. The Daedra did not give their power to create Mundus but remain interested in it (Mundus is the realm of limitations and infinite possibilites while Aetherius is the realm of limitless and infinite change and Oblivion is static and capable only of imitation) and so remain in Oblivion to screw with mortals. Auri'el was a champion of elves and Lorkhan a champion of men. After they discovered Lorkhan's "treachery" the Aedra met at Ada-Mantia (Akatosh's spaceship better known as Adamantine Tower on the now Direnni-controlled island of Balfiera in the Illiac Bay). Lorkhan's heart was cut from his chest by Trinimac (later Malacath after Boethiah ate him and *** him out) and Auri-el tied it to an arrow and shot it far to the east where it landed in the ocean and formed Vvardenfell and Red Mountain. The Heart of Lorkhan was first used by the Dwemer to build Numidium, then by the Tribunal of Morrowind to become living gods after the Dwemer attempted to escape Mundus by becoming the golden skin of Numidium. Because the Heart of Lorkhan is tied to Nirn the only thing the Dwemer succeeded in doing is permanently strand themselves on Nirn. Lorkhan's corpse is related to the moons--some say his corpse are Masser and Secunda while others believe that his corpse is a third Dark Moon that only appears when a Mane is born. Lorkhan's spirit was fractured into a series of reincarnated mortal avatars called Shezzarines who later coalesced in some capacity to become the most power entity in all of the Elder Scrolls franchise---Talos. Auri-el gathered his followers outside of Ada-Mantia and ascended to Aetherius to demonstrate to them how to folllow. The elves then built various Mythic Towers (like the Crystal Tower in the Summerset Isles or the White-Gold Tower in Cyrodiil) to help them achieve this ascension but succeeded only in strengthening the Mundus.

So where does Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, come into the story? Sometime in the first era the Marukhati Selective (a cult that followed the teachings of Marukh, one of St Alessia's generals) danced on top of Ada-Mantia in a way that reshaped reality (CHIM). Their goal was to remove the elven aspects of Auriel and make him a god of men. They did this by mixing Auriel the Eagle with Lorkhan the Snake. What happens when you combine an eagle and a snake? You get a dragon.

Now Sithis is a bit of a mystery. Sithis the entity is almost certainly NOT the god of the Dark Brotherhood. The Dark Brotherhood is being misled by the Night Mother. Who is the Night Mother? Current theories suggest two possibilities: Mephala the Webspinner who delights in manipulating mortals; and Vivec the usurper of Mephala who, as the most balanced of the Tribunal, has both male and female forms.

So why did Lorkhan want to create Mundus? Well, it's a long story and I recommend you check out the Imperial Library. The short version is that Lorkhan wandered to the edge of the Aurbis and realized that the entire universe is the dream of the Amaranth Anu (not to be confused with his reflection in his dream, Anu). Anu the Amaranth fought a terrible battle with Padomay over Nirni their shared love in his universe and withdrew to sleep eternally after that didn't work out so well. Lorkhan came to understand this and believed that a realm of limitation and possibility, Mundus, would need to be created so that the spirits who dwelt there (mortals) could reach the same realization and become new Amaranths to spawn new universes. Of the mortals who reached this understanding, most were unable to grasp that they both did and did not exist and thus accidentally erased themselves from history. Only three mortals ever succeeded: Talos, who through CHIM remade himself and became the Red Jewel of Conquest and the Ruling King of Nirn; Vivec, who through CHIM remade himself to become a true god who lived through previous kalpas (cycles of Mundus...essentially every now and then Alduin eats the world and it restarts with new variations. The dreugh were the dominant species in a previous kalpa and it is heavily implied that Molag Bal was a mortal who became a god in the dreugh kalpa.); and Jubal who unmade the Numidium after it reappeared from its eternal time war with Altmeri time wizards (Talos both succeeded and failed in conquering Summerset with Numidium) and destroyed Nirn in the 5th era. The survivors of the destruction of Nirn now live on the moons Masser and Secunda and potentially the Aedric planets. Jubal and Lady Vivec unite and their offspring is the new amaranth.

Elder Scrolls lore is... well... if you want to learn about it you quickly find yourself deep in the rabbit hole. It's crazy and complicated.

When you don't know how to put a reference.