No AEO cap vs No AOE's?

SleepyTroll

Other then ultimates why do we need aoe's in pvp? Isn't it having aoe's in general that promotes "ball" groups(this includes aoe heals)? How does it make sense that an aoe can hit me for just as much as a single target attack? I'm all for group play and there could be group play with out aoe. And yea removing aoe cap may help but wouldn't getting rid of them or at least making them significantly weaker make more sense? Arent aoe's what cripple the server?

This is only pvp has nothing to do with pve. I could be an idiot and completely wrong. Please tell me why in a constructive manner. Serious discussion here guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BhwhwX38o
That whole video only aoe's you really see are siege, isn't that how it should be? I know they're all low lvl so they couldn't use them.

On another note wouldn't healing be a lot more engaging and fun If Smart heals didn't exist and neither did aoe heals. groups wouldn't really be able to ball up if the healers had to choose who to heal via soft tab targeting like attacks or no?(My main is was a healer and this to me would be amazing)

IxSTALKERxI

Ok, let's say you are with 2 friends. Your side has 3 people in total. The rest of your alliance is no where to be seen. The enemy faction is attacking the keep you are in with 20 people. Using single target skills to attack them one at a time isn't going to work. You're only hope is co-ordinating the 3 of you to use AoE to kill the 20 people. You can't take away damage AoE's. That'll make the game a lot worse.

As for your point on aoe healing, yes that is somewhat valid. The bread and butter healing ability on the restoration staff line is healing springs. The most effective way to heal people with this ability is for them to stack up in a ball. Having to aim at individual targets to heal them may be a little too hardcore for the type of players who play this game, zos has catered largely to carebares and I think this change would make healing too difficult for a lot of people. Smart heals are ok imo and fit well with the ESO design, so long as they are capped at a maximum of 3 targets such as breath of life.

The best move to make right now would be to remove AoE caps on damaging abilities.

TDLR; leave damage aoe abilities alone, however you can make some changes to how healing/support operates so there are alternatives to stacking.

manny254

I think this is just a strange video for people to bring up. There is like 2 mins of fighting that had no skill involved, and the rest is people walking. Isn't walking a huge thing people complain about around here?

SleepyTroll

But 3 vs 20 is going to lose even with aoe's even if they had no cap? Unless you in a very skilled group like very skilled. If they were spread out though and the heals had to pick the targets to heal the 3 would be able to pick people off or kill the healers first then what is that group going to do with no heals? But eh every one can heal so I guess it wouldn't matter. Would be cool though. And yea sucks about healing being the way it is, healing could be so much more interesting. would be alot better if everyone didn't have access to heals such good heals like healing ward, vigor, and healong springa. groups would have dedicated healers, but I know this mmo is about everyone being able to do everything equally so that won't happen.

SleepyTroll

manny254 wrote: »

I think this is just a strange video for people to bring up. There is like 2 mins of fighting that had no skill involved, and the rest is people walking. Isn't walking a huge thing people complain about around here?

The siege at the very end was alot of people fighting, this is the only video I know of that I've seen posted that showed something like this.

Derra

SleepyTroll wrote: »

But 3 vs 20 is going to lose even with aoe's even if they had no cap? Unless you in a very skilled group like very skilled. If they were spread out though and the heals had to pick the targets to heal the 3 would be able to pick people off or kill the healers first then what is that group going to do with no heals? But eh every one can heal so I guess it wouldn't matter. Would be cool though. And yea sucks about healing being the way it is, healing could be so much more interesting. would be alot better if everyone didn't have access to heals such good heals like healing ward, vigor, and healong springa. groups would have dedicated healers, but I know this mmo is about everyone being able to do everything equally so that won't happen.

The problem with this is: The targetting system does not support non smart/gt heals. It priorizes enemies over allies. For targetted heals this would have to be reworked entirely.
This would come with the problem of: How do you trigger the system with switching between heal (allies are priority) and dps (enemies are priority) target mode. How would this work for a mixed hotbar setup? - The simple answer is: With the way eso combat is working it won´t work ever.

Without the ability to disable smart/aoe heals the whole point becomes moot.

Also even without smartheals the best tactic would still be to blob up and use singletarget spells. Just step back through your allies and you won´t bet hit anymore because the target lock actually does not lock you 100% on a target.

It would not work.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

Sublime

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

prootch

Damage aoe spams are the worst as far as pvp interest is concerned.
Siege weapons or heals are not the pb.
The worst being aoe execute that tend to be the most frequently spammed skill in most aoe warbands now (steel tornado)... aka "no skill" powa !

SleepyTroll

So basically the ball and the lag are here to stay forever?

prootch

Just make the ball less efficient: lower aoe damage, higher monotarget damage... it's a lot more difficult to mono target in a zerg... it's far easier to brainless aoe.

Minno

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

SleepyTroll

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

prootch

It's clearly a mistake... morover you now see whole warbands specialised in steel tornadoe damages.

Derra

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

ToRelax

prootch wrote: »

Just make the ball less efficient: lower aoe damage, higher monotarget damage... it's a lot more difficult to mono target in a zerg... it's far easier to brainless aoe.

You don't even have to coordinate single target damage much. Just calling out a general directing will let an outnumbering party hit the enemies in that direction hard enough. And if someone in the larger group gets in trouble, all he has to do is taking a step back behind his teammates.
If you don't see smaller groups wiping zergballs with single target today, you won't see them after this change either.

SleepyTroll

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

So why is eso all about balling up then? What was different?

prootch

Because magic aoe spammers in daoc where very fragile and heal was mono target... so kiling the aoe spammer was a lot easier. Now with aoe heals and shields + the fact that anyone can spam aoe staff or steel tornadoe, aoe gets to be the most efficient way to kill in ball group.

@ ToRelax that's why I would suggest zone cc to oblige zergs to depack

Ishammael

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

So why is eso all about balling up then? What was different?

AoE caps reward balling up.

SleepyTroll

Ishammael wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

So why is eso all about balling up then? What was different?

AoE caps reward balling up.

Yeah they do, but alot more things reward balling up. Barrier,healing springs, purge, seige hitting like a noodle, and smart heals.

prootch

agree that siege nerf was a real mistake...
and the aoe decap would not change anything except against pugs ... the trend for organized warbands to stack and aoe would not change with a decap.

Derra

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

So why is eso all about balling up then? What was different?

AoE caps reward balling up.

Yeah they do, but alot more things reward balling up. Barrier,healing springs, purge, seige hitting like a noodle, and smart heals.

You´ve hit the nail on the head yourself. The aoe caps are the largest issue. Then comes purge. Then rapid not breaking on heals. Then Barrier. Then smartheal + springsspam (this is not a rework option imho).

I´d start with the caps (because they actually penalize anyone not balling up) and work my way onwards until balling becomes situationally useful but is no longer a necessity.

Maybe the removal of dmg penalty is enough.

If not:
Make efficient purge singleselftargetted. Rework cleanse so anyone affected by the buff effect (50% hostile effect reduction) can not be purged again.

Let rapid break on heals cast.

Targetcap barrier to 12.

Waylander

Make ground based AoE much more effective than instant cast PBAoE. People should die when they step in stupid.

eliisra

Waylander wrote: »

Make ground based AoE much more effective than instant cast PBAoE. People should die when they step in stupid.

Sounds a little harsh since there's usually "stupid" covering every inch of the floor during keep fights. Where would you stand if skills like Caltrops or Walls did really high dmg? Sit outside the keep and wait for it to go away?

I think removing target cap on AoE would be enough. Just think of all online games+MMO's without it, where half a raid gets blown up by mage ultis of doom, because noobs where stupid enough stack.

It wasn't because if the dmg they introduced the cap either. It was because leeching(ulti+ heals) AoE abilities created close to immortal characters when you had infinite targets. But they removed dynamic ulti and apparently capable of flexible caps, so no reason to keep the target cap on dmg now. Inhale would for example still heal from 3 enemies, but now dmg everyone in range.

Septimus_Magna

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Remove aoe, it has no place in open world pvp, it rewards balling up, it scales quickly to a point where it destroys combat and is poor gameplay. spamming a skill and playing follow my leader? - this isn't Diablo we are playing, siege weapons are aoe.

1st: Are you referring to heals, damage skills or both?

2nd: Why do AOE's reward balling up?

Heals and dmg should be single target preferred (like previous elder scrolls games.)
Aoe should be utility based spells (health debuff, health buff, redistribute magic for defense, etc.)
Healing should only be for your group with a side mechanic that make single target healing powerful.( including spells for self healing)

You'd add a level of complexity to the game that aligns with other ES games, make raid and solo play viable. Large dungeons pulls would be suicide unless planned and in pvp AOE's would be use to debuff it buff and more emphasis on individual actions in group failures or success.

I agree why does an ability like steal tornado hitt as hard as single target abilitie? I've never played an MMO like that.

The hardest hitting abilities in the entire game were magic aoe in dark age of camelot. Still almost every grp revolved around coordinating singletarget dmg.

So why is eso all about balling up then? What was different?

AoE caps reward balling up.

Yeah they do, but alot more things reward balling up. Barrier,healing springs, purge, seige hitting like a noodle, and smart heals.

You´ve hit the nail on the head yourself. The aoe caps are the largest issue. Then comes purge. Then rapid not breaking on heals. Then Barrier. Then smartheal + springsspam (this is not a rework option imho).

I´d start with the caps (because they actually penalize anyone not balling up) and work my way onwards until balling becomes situationally useful but is no longer a necessity.

Maybe the removal of dmg penalty is enough.

If not:
Make efficient purge singleselftargetted. Rework cleanse so anyone affected by the buff effect (50% hostile effect reduction) can not be purged again.

Let rapid break on heals cast.

Targetcap barrier to 12.

Agreed, with the current damage reductions the aoe caps are not be necessary at all.

AOE caps on heals are great and should stay.

Caps on all buffs should also be limited to 12 players and they should give priority to group members.