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Training Boss Mobs in IC - Working as Intended?
Rook_Master
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The way that boss aggro works in Imperial City currently is ridiculous.
Right now individuals can train bosses onto larger groups very easily. Some people have gotten very good at this tactic. Once the boss aggro's the larger group of players it will never go back to the individual, leaving them to attempt to grief to their heart's content. It's super simple if you're a NB. Just run into the other group and cloak, the boss will aggro the larger group, and then you can attempt to grief for the next minute or so unimpeded while they are forced to retreat.
Maybe this gets some players nostalgic for Everquest, and training whole zones of mobs in order to grief noobs, but it is extremely aggravating for the average player. This can't be how it is supposed to work, is it?
Right now individuals can train bosses onto larger groups very easily. Some people have gotten very good at this tactic. Once the boss aggro's the larger group of players it will never go back to the individual, leaving them to attempt to grief to their heart's content. It's super simple if you're a NB. Just run into the other group and cloak, the boss will aggro the larger group, and then you can attempt to grief for the next minute or so unimpeded while they are forced to retreat.
Maybe this gets some players nostalgic for Everquest, and training whole zones of mobs in order to grief noobs, but it is extremely aggravating for the average player. This can't be how it is supposed to work, is it?
1
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Right now individuals can train bosses onto larger groups very easily.
God forbid something works against stacked big groups. We wouldn't want that would we? ZOS quickly fix plz. /sarcasmRook_Master wrote: »It's super simple if you're a NB. Just run into the other group and cloak, the boss will aggro the larger group, and then you can attempt to grief for the next minute or so unimpeded while they are forced to retreat.
That's not how it works, that not how any of it works.
Bosses have a large detect area that pops you out of cloak, for everyone to see. Also, If you attack the boss it's aggroed on you and unless someone *taunts* the boss he will stay trained on you until his aggro timer runs out, in which case he will aggro the next person that hits him.Edited by Maulkin on October 21, 2015 12:53PMEU | PC | AD4 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.0 -
Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
Deal with it.R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -4 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DC guys shouting forming small man group (12+) last night.
How small is small?!
But yea - this is part of IC. Small groups dont have an issue avoiding these things being trained from experience.0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.EU | PC | AD0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.Edited by Maulkin on October 21, 2015 2:51PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.EU | PC | AD0 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
Oh wow, you single-handedly discovered the Fall Damage bug and that Snipe debuff stacks?
Good thing you found these obscure bugs that no one else ever discovered or complained about. What would we do without you?0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
You are talking about group instance dungeons, right? Its not an apt comparison simply because there is only one group to manage agro with. If you were talking about open group dungons, that would be far more comparable. In this instance, i believe that, while another group hitting the boss may not necessarily draw primary agro, it does add that group to the bosses agro list, and makes them targets for his attacks. Especially aoe.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
Oh wow, you single-handedly discovered the Fall Damage bug and that Snipe debuff stacks?
Good thing you found these obscure bugs that no one else ever discovered or complained about. What would we do without you?
Where did I use the word "discovered"? I simply said when I found things not working as intended and that issue affected me, I have made a video of it.
Which usually works as pretty decent proof of an issue existing or not. And that to me is important considering the amount of people (like you) who make unsubstantiated claims on the forums all the time.
If you think you can drop aggro instantly on IC bosses and that is a problem to you, show us. Or instead sit here and be a sourpuss and QQ about getting owned by roaming bosses. Do whatever you please.
EDIT: And the video with Snipe debuff stacking was actually the first and only video on these forums to demonstrate the issue. Which many at the time doubted even existed.Edited by Maulkin on October 21, 2015 3:42PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
You are talking about group instance dungeons, right? Its not an apt comparison simply because there is only one group to manage agro with. If you were talking about open group dungons, that would be far more comparable. In this instance, i believe that, while another group hitting the boss may not necessarily draw primary agro, it does add that group to the bosses agro list, and makes them targets for his attacks. Especially aoe.
Instanced dungeon bosses, public dungeon bosses, general mobs anywhere (including IC) all behave like I said, based on my experience. And to be honest I've not seen anything different from IC bosses. Which is why I'm questioning the OP's suggestion that IC bosses behave differently.
I'm not saying I'm 100% right. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it but seeing is believing.EU | PC | AD0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
You are talking about group instance dungeons, right? Its not an apt comparison simply because there is only one group to manage agro with. If you were talking about open group dungons, that would be far more comparable. In this instance, i believe that, while another group hitting the boss may not necessarily draw primary agro, it does add that group to the bosses agro list, and makes them targets for his attacks. Especially aoe.
Instanced dungeon bosses, public dungeon bosses, general mobs anywhere (including IC) all behave like I said, based on my experience. And to be honest I've not seen anything different from IC bosses. Which is why I'm questioning the OP's suggestion that IC bosses behave differently.
I'm not saying I'm 100% right. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it but seeing is believing.
And have you used invisibility in these observations? Because i can say from experience that unless i used a taunt, using cloak or an invisibility pot will move agro to the next person in the list. And thats from public/ private dungeons and trials.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
You are talking about group instance dungeons, right? Its not an apt comparison simply because there is only one group to manage agro with. If you were talking about open group dungons, that would be far more comparable. In this instance, i believe that, while another group hitting the boss may not necessarily draw primary agro, it does add that group to the bosses agro list, and makes them targets for his attacks. Especially aoe.
Instanced dungeon bosses, public dungeon bosses, general mobs anywhere (including IC) all behave like I said, based on my experience. And to be honest I've not seen anything different from IC bosses. Which is why I'm questioning the OP's suggestion that IC bosses behave differently.
I'm not saying I'm 100% right. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it but seeing is believing.
And have you used invisibility in these observations? Because i can say from experience that unless i used a taunt, using cloak or an invisibility pot will move agro to the next person in the list. And thats from public/ private dungeons and trials.
Yes, I have. As it happens I have a v16 NB and when I pull an IC boss I can't cloak because the boss automatically pops me out and the cloak attempt does not remove aggro.
On normal mobs cloaking "stuns" them and then they move to the next person on their aggro list. Which is part of why I think NBs are OP as feck in IC and cloak is problematic.
Pull mobs to a player, cloak, your opponent uses AOE to reveal you and in the process gets all the aggro, now you can fight him using single target abilities while he has all the aggro. If he doesn't use AoE or pots, then the mobs will eventually de-aggro and you are still in the clear. Win-win.
But like I said, that does not apply to the bosses.Edited by Maulkin on October 21, 2015 3:43PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
No it's not. Small man groups know to split up when they see a boss that is covering a quarter of the screen approaching. They also know how to handle themselves without needing a crown to hug or to be told what to do.
I run in small groups and never struggled with world bosses. I have of course died to them, but not in way that I see as problematic.Rook_Master wrote: »Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
You're wrong. The bosses don't get aggroed by the last person who hits them. Otherwise they would switch aggro every second when 4 people DPS them.
If you ever did a dungeon run without tanks and taunts, you'd know the first person to hit the boss gets the aggro for 10-15 seconds and then the "taunt" is cleared and the boss picks on the very next person to attack him for the next 10-15 secs. The only way to change the aggro during that period is to apply a taunt.
I don't know ... I've definitely trained a roaming boss on to a large group without cloak and with only a few seconds passing and they picked up aggro quite easy. Doubt they taunted, either.
The bolded part is a bit vague. Especially since time seems to pass a lot faster when you are gaming than you think.
I don't see why taunting on roaming bosses would work differently than dungeon bosses. I run dungeons without tanks on an almost a daily basis (because why have a tank when 4 DDs can down 9/10 bosses in 15-20") and I've observed bosses maintain aggro on the same person for a bit less than 15".
However, I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new. So if you have a video by all means share.
Why don't you provide video proof that it works the way you claim?
We are talking about roaming bosses in IC, not PvE group dungeon bosses.
Oh dear.
Because I'm not the one struggling with anything, I have nothing to gain or prove. When I think something is problematic, I catch it on video and show it. I've made and posted videos showing HP desyncs with Crystal Frags, Fall Damage from meteors, stacking healing debuff from Snipe (back in the day) among others.
You seem to think aggro on IC bosses behaves differently to other mobs and dungeons bosses and that for you is a problem. If it's such a problem, so us why.
You are talking about group instance dungeons, right? Its not an apt comparison simply because there is only one group to manage agro with. If you were talking about open group dungons, that would be far more comparable. In this instance, i believe that, while another group hitting the boss may not necessarily draw primary agro, it does add that group to the bosses agro list, and makes them targets for his attacks. Especially aoe.
Instanced dungeon bosses, public dungeon bosses, general mobs anywhere (including IC) all behave like I said, based on my experience. And to be honest I've not seen anything different from IC bosses. Which is why I'm questioning the OP's suggestion that IC bosses behave differently.
I'm not saying I'm 100% right. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it but seeing is believing.
And have you used invisibility in these observations? Because i can say from experience that unless i used a taunt, using cloak or an invisibility pot will move agro to the next person in the list. And thats from public/ private dungeons and trials.
Yes, I have. As it happens I have a v16 NB and when I pull an IC boss I can't cloak because the boss automatically pops me out and the cloak attempt does not remove aggro.
On normal mobs cloaking "stuns" them and then they move to the next person on their aggro list. Which is part of why I think NBs are OP as feck in IC and cloak is problematic.
Pull mobs to a player, cloak, your opponent uses AOE to reveal you and in the process gets all the aggro, now you can fight him using single target abilities while he has all the aggro. If he doesn't use AoE or pots, then the mobs will eventually de-aggro and you are still in the clear. Win-win.
But like I said, that does not apply to he bosses.
Fair enough. I guess my cloak just lasts longer. I still get hit by aoe, but the boss usually isn't following me anymore.Edited by Shunravi on October 21, 2015 3:44PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And also, @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO, I know sorcs who pull to a group and then simply gain distance. The boss may follow for that 10-15 sec agro duration, but then, as you say, it switches to the next guy, like you said.
And it is entirely possible that I always tend to cloak right as my agro runs out. And it just switches normally. But I don't know. It just works.
I also know templars who will simply go to the middle of a group and stay alive long enough to transfer primary agro, and then work their way out of the group as the boss starts pummeling.Edited by Shunravi on October 21, 2015 4:04PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭And also, @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO, I know sorcs who pull to a group and then simply gain distance. The boss may follow for that 10-15 sec agro duration, but then, as you say, it switches to the next guy, like you said.
And it is entirely possible that I always tend to cloak right as my agro runs out. And it just switches normally. But I don't know. It just works.
Yes that would work. You have to time the duration of your "taunt" and get him to land on your opponents approximately the same time as the taunt expires. If the taunt expires and he is hit by someone else, he will change focus.
He will still however chase you for a good minute or so to the ends of the district if no one attacks him even after the taunt expires. After that minute he completely resets.
If you see a boss approaching, all you have to do is apply retreating manoeuvers and move away. Then spot the dude who aggroed him (as he can't cloak), CC him and watch him get smashed by the boss.
This involves a lot of risk for the guy who does the pulling. If the guys you pull the boss towards know what they are doing, it can spectacularly backfire. I know I've been there quite a few times.
EU | PC | AD0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, yea, thats a given. Been there as well. If were arguing the mechanic of simply immediately dropping agro, i think weve fleshed that out enough on how it works/ doesnt work. (And i am also talking with experience from ic as well, lack of mentioning it earlier was due to you not mentioning it earlier as well.)mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »And also, @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO, I know sorcs who pull to a group and then simply gain distance. The boss may follow for that 10-15 sec agro duration, but then, as you say, it switches to the next guy, like you said.
And it is entirely possible that I always tend to cloak right as my agro runs out. And it just switches normally. But I don't know. It just works.
Yes that would work. You have to time the duration of your "taunt" and get him to land on your opponents approximately the same time as the taunt expires. If the taunt expires and he is hit by someone else, he will change focus.
He will still however chase you for a good minute or so to the ends of the district if no one attacks him even after the taunt expires. After that minute he completely resets.
If you see a boss approaching, all you have to do is apply retreating manoeuvers and move away. Then spot the dude who aggroed him (as he can't cloak), CC him and watch him get smashed by the boss.
This involves a lot of risk for the guy who does the pulling. If the guys you pull the boss towards know what they are doing, it can spectacularly backfire. I know I've been there quite a few times.
How to avoid getting a pull on you requires more alertness perhaps than some are willing to give, but also its hard to see a boss coming from around a building or turn in the sewer.
My origonal response to the op was going to be 'so dont attck the boss.' But you nicely explaned that bit there with your counterplay description. Yes, there is risk to pull. If done right its potentially devastating to a group. If done wrong, you just stacked more damage and a reveal on yourself than you can handle.
This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Thank you Shunravi, for contributing to the discussion.
Im just a humble khajiit who plays a squishy class build. I dont know if i was really contributing, but i was doing something...This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Ghost-Shot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
The problem is a few streamers that like to "1vX" that have really accomplished nothing but hate if you say the word group, because ya know group means zerg. As soon as they accept that they are playing an RvR game you will be fine.2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ghost-Shot wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
The problem is a few streamers that like to "1vX" that have really accomplished nothing but hate if you say the word group, because ya know group means zerg. As soon as they accept that they are playing an RvR game you will be fine.
LolEU | PC | AD0 -
Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭Ghost-Shot wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
The problem is a few streamers that like to "1vX" that have really accomplished nothing but hate if you say the word group, because ya know group means zerg. As soon as they accept that they are playing an RvR game you will be fine.
It seems like anytime someone mentions they were in a group these people crawl out of the woodwork to remind them how bad they are for grouping up and having friends.
Some people just seem to get their rocks off on telling others to 'git gud' at the game on the forums. I'd like to think we could still have reasonable discourse on here, but lately it feels like I'm trying to pick up a turd from the clean side.2 -
Ghost-Shot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rook_Master wrote: »Ghost-Shot wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »Do I need a qualifying statement every time I state I'm in a group that it wasn't a zerg? This is a problem for small groups as well.
Also, no one needs to "taunt" the boss. If anyone from the larger group does any damage to the boss or his adds they will pull aggro.
The problem is a few streamers that like to "1vX" that have really accomplished nothing but hate if you say the word group, because ya know group means zerg. As soon as they accept that they are playing an RvR game you will be fine.
It seems like anytime someone mentions they were in a group these people crawl out of the woodwork to remind them how bad they are for grouping up and having friends.
Some people just seem to get their rocks off on telling others to 'git gud' at the game on the forums. I'd like to think we could still have reasonable discourse on here, but lately it feels like I'm trying to pick up a turd from the clean side.
Don't worry about it, its only pugs that take them seriously anyway.2