Should Toggles be changed to Long Duration Click Abilities?

dodgehopper_ESO

I've been thinking about this a while, and the more I think about it the more I dislike toggle skills. Repentence is good because it offers you a passive regeneration,
but to truly make use of it you have to click it at the right moments. Bound armor on the other hand takes up two bars and is essentially free. The same is true of combat pets, magelight, siphoning strikes, etc. I realize I don't like toggles because they are lazy. From morrowind to skyrim if I wanted to send a clanfear to attack my enemies, it usually had a duration that determined the cost. I'd much rather see this thing need to get recalled after a time, and make it a more interactive experience. The same goes for other skills as well, I don't mind that they have relatively long durations, but I'd like to see them do away with toggles. At the core of my problem with Toggles is the inherent laziness of their design. If they are no longer lazy in their use, perhaps some of the underperforming toggles could actually be made worthwhile, since they'd also have a requisite cost that would match their usage.

Please enter your ideas for or against and explain why.

Asherons_Call

No thanks, I like being able to toggle on and forget about it. Ps4 does not tell you when a buff fades so this would just be another thing to constantly check

DannyLV702

I hate toggles with a passion. If mage light wasn't a toggle, it would actually be a decent counter against cloak without giving up 2 slots just for one ability

ADarklore

I spend enough time worrying about all the other abilities I need to activate or be aware of the duration for, even with the PC add-ons they can be difficult to keep up with. During long battles I'm constantly seeing spell durations coming and going, adding another few to the mix would just be overly distracting and increase spell cost. I think a lot of people don't take that into consideration, a toggle is a one-time cost until turned off... having them as an active ability would mean further drain on your resources.

ontheleftcoast

I just want toggles to be, you know, toggles. When I turn them on they're on until I turn them off. As it stands they get turned off by the silliest of reasons. No, going thru a door is *NOT* a valid reason for me to cast 2 or 3 "toggles", drain my magicka, and get wailed on by the opponent waiting for me on the other side.

dodgehopper_ESO

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

I just want toggles to be, you know, toggles. When I turn them on they're on until I turn them off. As it stands they get turned off by the silliest of reasons. No, going thru a door is *NOT* a valid reason for me to cast 2 or 3 "toggles", drain my magicka, and get wailed on by the opponent waiting for me on the other side.

This wouldn't happen if they were more like a 60 second buff.

catalyst10e

Or just change it so I don't have to have dedicate 2 slots for 1 ability just to maintain it. Shouldnt be that hard to do, why does swapping weapons mean I'm no longer sustaining an ability, but timed ones will stay on no matter how many times i swap?

ADarklore

catalyst10e wrote: »

Or just change it so I don't have to have dedicate 2 slots for 1 ability just to maintain it. Shouldnt be that hard to do, why does swapping weapons mean I'm no longer sustaining an ability, but timed ones will stay on no matter how many times i swap?

Simple... because timed abilities have a cost EACH time you use them, toggled abilities only have a cost ONCE when initially activated. I wonder how many people would like to have it so that the ability could be put on one bar, but each time they swapped weapons it would cost them another cast but would be done automatically; I'm thinking people would hate that even worse.

dodgehopper_ESO

catalyst10e wrote: »

Or just change it so I don't have to have dedicate 2 slots for 1 ability just to maintain it. Shouldnt be that hard to do, why does swapping weapons mean I'm no longer sustaining an ability, but timed ones will stay on no matter how many times i swap?

I think the issue has to do with ease of use. If you can passively get the benefits from both bars, other classes would need equal footing in this regard. Sorcerers would get the best use of toggles, and it would arguably make the Sorcerer the uncontested most badass class.

Bhakura

No, they just need to add a separate slot for toggles so you dont have to waste 2 slots for one skill, not a single toggle is worth it to do so.
And if not a separate slot, at least let them remain toggled while swapping.

Zsymon

We already got enough buff timers to watch, making this even worse is not a good idea.

jhharvest

I think toggles should stay on even if you swap bars, i.e. you would need only one slot for magelight instead of two. Exception to this: sorcs shouldn't be able to have toggles on their overload bar.

Jitterbug

So you're saying that this



isn't fun gameplay?

SleepyTroll

Maybe one day ZOS will add a 6th button. I can dream.

Septimus_Magna

I would sign for timed buffs, toggles just destroy build diversity for some classes.

The recent change to Siphoning Attacks is a good example imo, they buffed the effect and put a timer on it to make it desirable again.

All current toggles should get the same treatment, either buff the effect and put them on a relative short timer (15-30 sec) or keep the current effect but put them on a long timer (2-3 min).

My main is a sorc and every time I tweak my build I disregard both Pets because they simply take up too much space on my skill bars. On my NB on the other hand, I can cast Shade from my back bar and continue my rotations on my front bar. Why oh why does Shade get a different treatment than the sorc Pets?

Rosveen

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

I just want toggles to be, you know, toggles. When I turn them on they're on until I turn them off. As it stands they get turned off by the silliest of reasons. No, going thru a door is *NOT* a valid reason for me to cast 2 or 3 "toggles", drain my magicka, and get wailed on by the opponent waiting for me on the other side.

This wouldn't happen if they were more like a 60 second buff.

Sure it would. Did you see the length of loading screens in this game?

a.skelton92

So is there a reason why they cannot just keep it a toggle ability but allow to persist through weapon swap on one bar?

a.skelton92

a.skelton92 wrote: »

So is there a reason why they cannot just keep it a toggle ability but allow to persist through weapon swap on one bar?

Didn't realise people asked the same thing.

ADarklore

Again I go back to the fact that removing them as a toggle would add yet another 'cost' cast to our already problematic resource management; I don't want to be forced to spend potion after potion to continuously recast Magelight, Clannfear, etc., along with my damage abilities. Not only that, but as I noted before and others agreed, it would add yet another duration counter to constantly manage.

You shouldn't be able to load your bars up with all good skills, a build is about making choices and designing a build with those choices in mind. While I agree that toggles are a pain because they require a slot on each bar, it would also make Sorcerers extremely OP if we weren't forced to make these type of decisions.

ShadowDisciple

ADarklore wrote: »

our already problematic resource management

lol

ADarklore

a.skelton92 wrote: »

So is there a reason why they cannot just keep it a toggle ability but allow to persist through weapon swap on one bar?

Yes, and the reason is because then every other class would want the same thing. What you'd be getting is a FREE, permanent ability that costs nothing after your initial activation cost... or at least until you teleport or enter a delve, dungeon, etc... which requires a recast. Imagine if you could load your bars up with skills that required only an initial cast to activate- you could have those all on one bar, and your other bar could be loaded with damage abilities. As it is now, we have to manage whether we want more toggle abilities or damage abilities, which maintains a fair give and take.

GreenSoup2HoT

I want radiant mage light to be a minute buff. That way you only need 1 slot for it on your bar.

catalyst10e

ADarklore wrote: »

a.skelton92 wrote: »

So is there a reason why they cannot just keep it a toggle ability but allow to persist through weapon swap on one bar?

Yes, and the reason is because then every other class would want the same thing. What you'd be getting is a FREE, permanent ability that costs nothing after your initial activation cost... or at least until you teleport or enter a delve, dungeon, etc... which requires a recast. Imagine if you could load your bars up with skills that required only an initial cast to activate- you could have those all on one bar, and your other bar could be loaded with damage abilities. As it is now, we have to manage whether we want more toggle abilities or damage abilities, which maintains a fair give and take.

While I have no doubt some people would try and grab every single possible perm, to do so you'd be essentially losing an entire bar, which would be the trade off. I dont suggest removing ALL toggle abilities, but (to me at least) it doesnt make sense to have to put magelight on 2 of my slots, limiting my options on both bars, and If I were to place it on a single bar, it's hardly any different from being a toggle ability

Emma_Overload

No, but here's what SHOULD be changed about toggles:

Toggle's should be persistent through weapon swaps, even when placed on only one bar.

People have been asking for this since launch, and it would solve SO MANY problems with toggles.

dodgehopper_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I would sign for timed buffs, toggles just destroy build diversity for some classes.

The recent change to Siphoning Attacks is a good example imo, they buffed the effect and put a timer on it to make it desirable again.

All current toggles should get the same treatment, either buff the effect and put them on a relative short timer (15-30 sec) or keep the current effect but put them on a long timer (2-3 min).

My main is a sorc and every time I tweak my build I disregard both Pets because they simply take up too much space on my skill bars. On my NB on the other hand, I can cast Shade from my back bar and continue my rotations on my front bar. Why oh why does Shade get a different treatment than the sorc Pets?

This is the same reason I don't usually use pets on my Sorc unless I'm just feeling like messing around with a pet army.

dodgehopper_ESO

catalyst10e wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

a.skelton92 wrote: »

So is there a reason why they cannot just keep it a toggle ability but allow to persist through weapon swap on one bar?

Yes, and the reason is because then every other class would want the same thing. What you'd be getting is a FREE, permanent ability that costs nothing after your initial activation cost... or at least until you teleport or enter a delve, dungeon, etc... which requires a recast. Imagine if you could load your bars up with skills that required only an initial cast to activate- you could have those all on one bar, and your other bar could be loaded with damage abilities. As it is now, we have to manage whether we want more toggle abilities or damage abilities, which maintains a fair give and take.

While I have no doubt some people would try and grab every single possible perm, to do so you'd be essentially losing an entire bar, which would be the trade off. I dont suggest removing ALL toggle abilities, but (to me at least) it doesnt make sense to have to put magelight on 2 of my slots, limiting my options on both bars, and If I were to place it on a single bar, it's hardly any different from being a toggle ability

This is why I think they need to be careful how they do this. Abilities like Repentance for instance give a regeneration buff only while the power is on the bar. It isn't a toggle, but it more or less operates like one if you want that effect on at all times (thus needing it on two bars). The alternate is to favor one bar for regeneration as it stands now. Would it be fair for people to get the benefit of a toggle, and repentance not? Secondly, there are passive effects within classes that boost skills. Would this mean for instance that if you have 4 Sorc abilities on your back bar, and 4 on the front bar that you get the passive effects on both? How about nightblades and the passive attribute effects from slotting those abilities? How about the passive bonuses from DK abilities? This is the slippery slope they face when designing toggles to be functional on the back bar. If they aren't careful about it, toggles could become really overpowered with relation to other elements of game balance in other classes. I like the idea of just making them clickies, because they wouldn't have to do as many sweeping changes to a multitude of class abilities. Sorcerer clearly would come out ahead of everyone by leaps and bounds were they not careful how they did this. You could toggle everything on an overload bar, and still have two full tabs to do whatever you wanted. Think about that.

I'm not saying its an awful idea to have passives/back bar toggles effect the front bar numbers. In fact I think it would be nice if the full loadout had an effect. The only issue is that they'd somehow need to reduce the effect of additional passives (the ones that say things like more health regen for number of draconic powers on a bar) for instance, or the magicka and health bonuses for Nightblade abilities slotted, etc. The devs would have to be really careful about this, which is why I came up with the click-ability idea.

dodgehopper_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

Again I go back to the fact that removing them as a toggle would add yet another 'cost' cast to our already problematic resource management; I don't want to be forced to spend potion after potion to continuously recast Magelight, Clannfear, etc., along with my damage abilities. Not only that, but as I noted before and others agreed, it would add yet another duration counter to constantly manage.

You shouldn't be able to load your bars up with all good skills, a build is about making choices and designing a build with those choices in mind. While I agree that toggles are a pain because they require a slot on each bar, it would also make Sorcerers extremely OP if we weren't forced to make these type of decisions.

That is the point of making it a clicky ability. It changes the whole dynamic, and frankly it'd play a lot more like the older TES games that ESO is based upon. If you have a clanfear up all the time for instance, there's a requisite cost (time and magicka) for continually bringing him out. I think that would inherently balance the usage of the clanfear.

mr_wazzabi

Toggles should stay the same, but should not be needed to be on your current bar to stay active. Is this a code limitation on their part or is it a balance decision? I hate having to put magelight on both bars for my templar.

Waffennacht

Jitterbug wrote: »

So you're saying that this



isn't fun gameplay?

I'm really surprised no one commented on this. This IS a main build. It has a whole 3 moves really.

I don't know where I fall in this. I don't like how many toggles sorcs have at the cost of reasonable moves.

The whole daedric summoning tree is pretty much toggles. Maybe a morph that makes it timed instead of a toggle that way we have options

dodgehopper_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

So you're saying that this



isn't fun gameplay?

I'm really surprised no one commented on this. This IS a main build. It has a whole 3 moves really.

I don't know where I fall in this. I don't like how many toggles sorcs have at the cost of reasonable moves.

The whole daedric summoning tree is pretty much toggles. Maybe a morph that makes it timed instead of a toggle that way we have options

I agree, but then that's why I slapped this discussion on the forums. By the way there is a flaw with that build: Where is your Curse? I don't think you can have a proper pet build without curse.

hardcore_gmr

Here is my problem with this suggestion and please correct me if I'm wrong but the overarching complaint here is the need to double stack toggle abilities (run the toggle on both bars) to keep the effect. The possible "fix" (and I use this term loosely here) is to transform toggle abilities into long buffs so that they can be run on both bars without needing to slot it twice.

Now here is the error in this line of thinking....(we'll use magelight as an example since its readily available to all classes). Suppose this change is put into effect, how is this beneficial as it means the skill will ultimately run out and then you will have to swap back to the bar where the skill is located to cast it again then switch back to the bar you want. The reality here is that you really want the skill effect for both bars but don't want to slot it for both bars, how is it more beneficial to be forced to swap bars just for one effect only to swap back. Wouldn't it make more sense to run it on the bar for which its needed and not the other if the effect is not needed for both bars?

Now lets assume that the effect is indeed needed for both bars.....how is it more effective to be forced to recast a skill rather than just keep the skill constantly active?

Now for the roleplaying argument....You do realize that it's possible to deactivate the skill at any point of your choosing, so if you feel the skill should have a timer, why not activate the skill when needed then deactivate when not necessary. If the argument is for more interactivity then how is a timer a better means of interactivity than a timer that your set for yourself. this way if you only need a few seconds of a skill you activate it then deactivate it when necessary, instead of ZoS forcing all players to operate off your suggested clock of how long a skill should be active for. Because truth be told no matter how long ZoS sets the timer for, someone will always want it longer or shorter depending on who is doing the complaining in that unnecessary thread.

And lastly the perma buff argument....well this one was already handled quite nicely by another player, who asked, why would a player not just simply use one bar for buffs then the other bar for the intended output. you don't have to fill the entire bar with buffs, you need just enough to make resource management and skill selection a joke (or a bigger joke than it already is, depending on who you ask)

You see the problem with this thread, and what seems to be the better part of this entire forum for that matter, is that players lodge complaints, cries of op, nerf this, change that, this is broken, fix that, buff here, this is too much nerf there....etc with all consideration for only their specific character, class or playstyle. What's most alarming is that other players who share the sentiment all *** to these post to weigh in their two cents, all with complete disregard for the fundamental principles of game design and game balance. Almost as if the idea of game design and game balance were wholly tethered to what that player considers to be "fun". And as is the case for arguably the most subjective point in all of gaming, "WHAT IS FUN," the idea of game design and balance is wholly tethered to what a handful of players feel is "unanimously better for the greater good". Understand, I can link old threads of tanks saying that tanking lacked thought and wasn't fun because all you needed to do was hold block and be a meat shield while the DPS did all the work (and in effect had all the fun). ZoS response to making the act of tanking more "interactive" (again using the term loosely here) was to remove stamina regen from blocking so players had to do more than just block to tank. Now we have threads like, "I used to be a tank like you," or "is tanking in PvE dead?"

All in the name of "FUN?!" I would love to find some of these players and ask them are they having fun now. So here's a follow up suggestion for the people who feel it would be more fun to have toggles with timers so that they need to be recast....instead of asking ZoS to regulate fun for all players, how about if you need the skill on both bars, you use it on both bars, if you only need it on one then run it on the bar you need it on, if you want a timer for roleplaying purpose then for god sakes just turn the skill off when you don't need it. Because ultimately what sounds like "fun" for you, sounds like no stamina regen on blocking to me. Someone is bound to lose when ZoS has to make that distinction for us.