Harness Magicka weakens all magicka classes except one

WreckfulAbandon

Ok I saw yet another "nerf cloak" thread today and decided to finally break my silence regarding what I see as a bigger problem balance-wise in PvP - magicka sorcerers. There is a certain skill that, to borrow a phrase from a well-trafficked nerf cloak thread, "is pushing sorcs into OP territory." (I probably misquoted a bit but oh well.... also Cloak lasts 2.9 seconds not 3.5 seconds )

I think we can all agree that the Shieldbreaker set is ZOS's response to the endless QQ about sorcs in 1.6. I also don't think anyone can really deny how effective a well-built and well-played magic sorc is. They were face-rolling and face-tanking in 1vX back when ppl were stacking nirnhorned. So are sorcs just OP and need to be nerfed somehow? Anyhow?

The Answer is a resounding no. In my opinion, the perception that sorcs are godly and OP is helped along by a single significant advantage that magic sorcs enjoy mainly vis-à-vis other magic classes - their addition of Annulment (usually Harness Magicka) onto their already strong class shield, of course with healing ward waiting in the wings. Yes, you heard me right, it's not sorcs or Hardened Ward that I think is the problem. It's Harness Magicka.

Since Stamina became viable, a well-played, well-geared stamina user always has a decent shot at bursting down a sorc. They are also able to be bursted down by the sorc. That's called balanced, or at least more so than what I'm about to get into. The same is not true of ANY non-sorc magic user taking on a classically shielded (we all know what that means) magic (duh) sorc. Let's say you are both equally skilled players... you manage to get in a well-timed reflect on the sorc... well now is the time to kill the sorc, probably the only time you will get until you reflect another cfrags or overload light attack. Drop your ulti, rush in and spam your hardest hitting abilities... Sometimes this actually works, but usually not. More often than not they'll CC break, pop healing ward, 2 GCD's later their shields are back up. Can someone enlighten me which skills magic users can use (obviously not the ulti you just used) to mitigate that healing ward in time to kill the sorc b4 they can reapply their shields? Maybe you can force them to pop healing ward twice, even three times. But usually they'll be out of the danger zone, shielded up, and reapplying pressure pretty quickly after the reflect + Kaio-ken times twenty.

Obviously I'm talking about good sorcs here, bad sorcs (like any bad player) are laughable but still not always an easy kill if they just use Harness Magicka + Hardened Ward. Can anyone deny that Harness Magicka provides more benefits to sorcs than other magic users? I don't know how to bring other magic classes up to the level of sorcs (or bring sorcs down for that matter) because PvE content has been designed with Annulment being taken into consideration. I can solo a lot of v16 bosses in Vet dungeons with Harness Magicka as a magblade, I know how good it is. I also know how good magblades are, but we have to significantly outplay good magic sorcs to get that kill. Curse DOES break Cloak, I'm tired of ppl saying it doesn't. The whole time we are fighting I am at a severe disadvantage. The same can be said of other magic classes.

What is a magic DK supposed to do when they get that reflect, meteor + invasion + whip whip whip LOL? And temps... sure they have Eclipse but that can be CC broken. Used to be the sorc's Achilles heel was their stamina bar and that's still mainly true. Thanks to CP, moderate investment into stam/stam regen and sets (2 pc Engine Guardian, 1 pc Bloodspawn, etc) that weakness has been mitigated by a lot of sorcs, even ones who really aren't that good. Can we all just be honest here and say that sorcs are head and shoulders above other magic classes? Not because of their burst, but because of that added to the fact that they can basically ignore spell damage for the most part 1v1?

All that being said, I still don't think magicka sorcs are OP, other than the fact that they have 3 skillbars... anyone trying to defend that just doesn't want to be dragged down to the reality that the other 3 classes face. I mean, really, 3 skillbars when everyone else has 2? Please don't try to defend that...

TL;DR - Harness Magicka is giving magic sorcs a bigger advantage against other magic classes than any other class using HM is enjoying. This contributed to the QQ about sorcs that led to Shieldbreaker and the nerf to shields.

Edit: edited title to better reflect what I was trying to say here. I thought the title would draw the sorc lovers and haters to comment, but instead it allowed some ppl to think they already knew what I was on about with no need to read. That said, in 1.7 the problem is definitely smaller than in 1.6, so I'll stop complaining.

WreckfulAbandon

Forgot to add that as a melee magic user, the odds are stacked even higher against you versus mag sorcs because of mines.

Colosso-monstro

Why wouldn't you just spam cc until they're out of stamina and attack when they can't break cc and therefore can't apply shields? Serious question

WreckfulAbandon

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

Why wouldn't you just spam cc until they're out of stamina and attack when they can't break cc and therefore can't apply shields? Serious question

I do that with fear, petrify, eclipse, etc. It's the best way to kill a magic sorc as a magic user, since bursting them down is hardly an option. Even with a very bursty (for magic) build. See the issue there? In fact we can partly thank Harness Magic for the reason I even have to add the modifier "for magic."

The good ones don't run out of stamina either. A skilled magic sorc running engine guardian is a nightmare for any magic user. Why should magic sorcs get to laugh at other magicka classes attempts to kill them thru outright damage? I thought DK's were supposed to be the "tank class."

Kwivur

There's no reason to nerf sorcs.. Leave them alone.

WreckfulAbandon

I know it was a long post but you could at least read the TL;DR summary. I dont want sorcs nerfed in any way, I said the issue is that with Harness Magicka they are entirely too tanky along with all the burst and mobility. The issue is that Harness Magicka makes sorcs the easymode class when fighting any other magicka class.

olsborg

Annulment and morpsh (harness/dampen) shouldnt work with any other dmg shield if you ask me.

Rayste

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I know it was a long post but you could at least read the TL;DR summary. I dont want sorcs nerfed in any way, I said the issue is that with Harness Magicka they are entirely too tanky along with all the burst and mobility. The issue is that Harness Magicka makes sorcs the easymode class when fighting any other magicka class.

Shield breaker was the answer to the shield stacking. If you really want to do some good, make a thread regarding why the set was given to stamina builds (which don't need it) and not magicka builds.

The stacking isn't going anywhere. I inferred this from Eric's comments tonight on ESO live. He said the set is very polarizing but basically necessary until they can deal with it in another manner.

Zlater

olsborg wrote: »

Annulment and morpsh (harness/dampen) shouldnt work with any other dmg shield if you ask me.

I have absolutely no issue with shield stacking, it should be encouraged and I think it should be made a bit easier for stamina users, especially tanks.

These things are true, there are a few notes I think you will find useful.
50% of a sorcs dps come from projectiles.
Most sorcs put both harness healing ward and Hardened ward on a separate 'defensive' bar, usually on their resto staff bar. This means they are typically fight or flight all of the time.
Sorcs also spend the most time of all of the classes in execute range.

I really think harness is fine, I think that bone shield should be made to be able to scale off stamina though and battle spirit adjusted.

3 skill bars isn't something to bang on about though. Sorcs are already very limited with their skill slots because we need a lot of non class skills for the buffs, not to mention the obsurd amount of toggles -.- I've never seen a sorc use skills from his overload bar as part of his rotation.

WreckfulAbandon

Zlater wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Annulment and morpsh (harness/dampen) shouldnt work with any other dmg shield if you ask me.

I have absolutely no issue with shield stacking, it should be encouraged and I think it should be made a bit easier for stamina users, especially tanks.

These things are true, there are a few notes I think you will find useful.
50% of a sorcs dps come from projectiles.
Most sorcs put both harness healing ward and Hardened ward on a separate 'defensive' bar, usually on their resto staff bar. This means they are typically fight or flight all of the time.
Sorcs also spend the most time of all of the classes in execute range.

I really think harness is fine, I think that bone shield should be made to be able to scale off stamina though and battle spirit adjusted.

3 skill bars isn't something to bang on about though. Sorcs are already very limited with their skill slots because we need a lot of non class skills for the buffs, not to mention the obsurd amount of toggles -.- I've never seen a sorc use skills from his overload bar as part of his rotation.

Magicka sorcs are easymode when they fight other magicka classes 1v1. The other class has to significantly outplay the sorc to get the kill. If you're a magic sorc and lose 1v1 against a magblade (and magblades are very good) then you either made a big mistake or he was WAY better than you.

I know reflect works wonders, it will also run magic users out of stamina if spammed. Is everyone really ok with sorcs ruling over other magic classes? Should magic classes have to be a bosmer or redguard just to counter (sort of) sorcs? I would love to be proven wrong here.

Elara_Northwind

I actually find it harder to kill another sorc with my sorc, than I do my templar, both magic Not sure exactly why... But now that I realise how easy it is to kill a sorc on my templar, I try to avoid templars when playing her, its given me a bit on a complex tbh I don't think anyone needs nerfing, perhaps give DK and Templar an escape, and magic nb need a bit more damage, especially if cloak is going to be nerfed, and, dare I say it, I think that sorcerer needs a better self heal, so fed up with carrying a resto staff around with me but I think at some point people have to stop trying to get every class nerfed, as soon as somebody manages to kill them in pvp, no? We're are all going to end up doing 50 damage and surviving forever at this rate, its ridiculous...

WreckfulAbandon

SadieJoan wrote: »

I actually find it harder to kill another sorc with my sorc, than I do my templar, both magic Not sure exactly why... But now that I realise how easy it is to kill a sorc on my templar, I try to avoid templars on my sorc, its given me a bit on a complex tbh

Then you are either a beastmode temp or the sorcs you fight are all tyros and recruits.. Most ppl in this game are easy to kill with any class if you are good. Game is actually fairly balanced atm. But it takes a lower threshold of skill as a sorc to dominate other magic users. So if you're a skilled sorc, your skill is effectively multiplied against other magic users.

It's Harness Magicka that's giving them that extra edge, I don't want any class nerfed.

Elara_Northwind

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

I actually find it harder to kill another sorc with my sorc, than I do my templar, both magic Not sure exactly why... But now that I realise how easy it is to kill a sorc on my templar, I try to avoid templars on my sorc, its given me a bit on a complex tbh

Then you are either a beastmode temp or the sorcs you fight are all tyros and recruits.. Most ppl in this game are easy to kill with any class if you are good. Game is actually fairly balanced atm. But it takes a lower threshold of skill as a sorc to dominate other magic users. So if you're a skilled sorc, your skill is effectively multiplied against other magic users.

tbh, I wouldn't consider myself especially 'skilled' as a sorc, I would say I am average, I tend to get along better with the other 3 classes, especially templar, where I literally have no trouble in pvp with any class. I think because I played templar for so long I kind of know them inside out and am very confident playing them. I can kill most sorc easily with my templar can take a while at certain times though, especially 1v1... Have been duelling a sorc for a VERY long time before, even given up at times because was going nowhere!

WreckfulAbandon

Then it sounds like you know your class well and deserve those victories. When a sorc knows all the ins and outs of their class like that they have a huge advantage against magic users that can even overcome a skill disparity. The reason for this is that sorcs are a good class with burst and mobility, and Harness Magicka works with their class shield in a way that also lets them tank magic users while retaining their mobility and burst.

Harness Magicka is making a good class OP against magic users.

eliisra

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

I actually find it harder to kill another sorc with my sorc, than I do my templar, both magic Not sure exactly why... But now that I realise how easy it is to kill a sorc on my templar, I try to avoid templars on my sorc, its given me a bit on a complex tbh

Then you are either a beastmode temp or the sorcs you fight are all tyros and recruits.. Most ppl in this game are easy to kill with any class if you are good. Game is actually fairly balanced atm. But it takes a lower threshold of skill as a sorc to dominate other magic users. So if you're a skilled sorc, your skill is effectively multiplied against other magic users.

Maybe she or he plays some kind of secret monster stamplar setup, I dunno lol?

But magicka templars can not kill good sorcs 1v1. It's not a l2p issue, it's more like rock, papers scissors. They dont have the mobility to keep up or the burst to the break the shields, not the skills for it. However, it's not like a magicka sorc cant just go and knock out a Harness Magicka + BoL spamming templar, or they can but takes like 10 minutes of resource grinding, which is about the same as impossible in PvP, because allies will arrive.

Same story with magicka DK v.s sorc.

Topic: I dont think sorcs are that over the top, considering Shield Breaker and the nerf to Bolt Escape. Sorcs cant solo freely in PvP any more, for example. NB's can.

But I mainly think ZoS made a lot of horrible mistakes with 1.6 and 2.1 rebalancing and blanket nerfs, that punished templar and DK so hard. Now they try to somehow balance it with a 5-piece set bonus only available for stamina users

Elara_Northwind

eliisra wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

SadieJoan wrote: »

I actually find it harder to kill another sorc with my sorc, than I do my templar, both magic Not sure exactly why... But now that I realise how easy it is to kill a sorc on my templar, I try to avoid templars on my sorc, its given me a bit on a complex tbh

Then you are either a beastmode temp or the sorcs you fight are all tyros and recruits.. Most ppl in this game are easy to kill with any class if you are good. Game is actually fairly balanced atm. But it takes a lower threshold of skill as a sorc to dominate other magic users. So if you're a skilled sorc, your skill is effectively multiplied against other magic users.

Maybe she or he plays some kind of secret monster stamplar setup, I dunno lol?

But magicka templars can not kill good sorcs 1v1. It's not a l2p issue, it's more like rock, papers scissors. They dont have the mobility to keep up or the burst to the break the shields, not the skills for it. However, it's not like a magicka sorc cant just go and knock out a Harness Magicka + BoL spamming templar, or they can but takes like 10 minutes of resource grinding, which is about the same as impossible in PvP, because allies will arrive.

Same story with magicka DK v.s sorc.

Topic: I dont think sorcs are that over the top, considering Shield Breaker and the nerf to Bolt Escape. Sorcs cant solo freely in PvP any more, for example. NB's can.

But I mainly think ZoS made a lot of horrible mistakes with 1.6 and 2.1 rebalancing and blanket nerfs, that punished templar and DK so hard. Now they try to somehow balance it with a 5-piece set bonus only available for stamina users

No Stamplar here, just plain old magic, resto staff and 1h and shield I also don't wear shield breaker. Whether people believe me or not, I do not really care, I was just stating my opinion on the topic after all, not trying to get into a debate about which class is better than which, I actually think that they are all fine how they are

I personally believe that if you are good at playing the game, you can fight pretty effectively using any class and win, because its not all down to your skills, but tactics also. Templars have some pretty badass skills too! I was the one saying that they did not need a buff months ago when everybody was complaining about how crap they were, and I ended up having to post a video to prove that templars could match the insane damage that everybody else was doing at the time! I may even try to record some pvp in future, just to prove that I can kill sorcerers if my crappy computer will allow it without to much lag

Waffennacht

NB is offensive at heart, templar is set up for healing, that means DK is suppose to be the other "magicka user"

You are complaining that DK is inherently gimped, not that sorcs use harness better than others.

Emma_Overload

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Ok I saw yet another "nerf cloak" thread today and decided to finally break my silence regarding what I see as a bigger problem balance-wise in PvP - magicka sorcerers.

Thanks for putting this sentence first, so I knew I could safely skip the rest, LOL.

PhatGrimReaper

tbh, I think all class Damage Shields need to be brought into line with each other..... Hardened Scales of Magicka and lasts for what, 15secs? Igneous Shield does last a little longer, but is tiny in comparison and scales off health, so apart from the healing buff, it's pretty useless as a shield for a magicka user.... Templars have Blazing Shield that also scales off health which is tough for magicka users and it only lasts a measly 6 secs.....

Bring the shields into balance and I don't think it will be an issue anymore..... to be clear, I don't want them to all be identical, but there is such a great difference between the class shields atm.

WreckfulAbandon

Sorcs do not need a nerf. No classes need a nerf. I've explained a few times already that the synergy between sorc class shield (which is perfectly fine and doesn't need a nerf) and Harness Magicka allows sorcs to tank other magicka classes.

Think about it. A mobile, bursty class can also tank spell dmg like a boss. Hardened Ward is necessary for sorcs to survive, no nerf needed. It's the interaction between Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka that allows an overlapping, magic refilling, barrier that basically says to magic builds "so I see you specced for dmg, too bad figure something else out." Why do sorcs get this ability to tank for free?

If no one had harness magic in PvP I don't think the game would be worse off.

WreckfulAbandon

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Ok I saw yet another "nerf cloak" thread today and decided to finally break my silence regarding what I see as a bigger problem balance-wise in PvP - magicka sorcerers.

Thanks for putting this sentence first, so I knew I could safely skip the rest, LOL.

I see they don't award stars for reading comprehension or ability to hear views that one disagrees with, thanks for commenting anyway.

willymchilybily

TBH i can only relate from the perspective of one magicka user, magicka DK and it has an okay chance vs a sorc (out of other magicka classes) because talons,petrify and reflect can do a lot of the work for you.

But a good sorc is a whole different story if they dont rely on overload and cf spam to kill a person before they have them CC'd they can easily take me down.

but i accept the pecking order. ZOS will try to balance and tweak but for now i just accept it is what it is. least i can survive a sorc, till they get bored of reflected spells and bugger off.

would changing shield mechanics/ harness magicka help, no doubt. but eventually you just have to accept rock, scissor, paper. either way i have to expose my self to being weak to one class or another. and NBs are more prevalent in Ic so i stack myself to be anti NB. after all i rarely come to a sorc 1v1 and if i do I can hope they are a bad sorc.

Maphusail

Sorcs are killable. If not then it's the case when they are more like annoying trolls that run around with streak restacking their shields in a crapy situation. You can fight with them for ages then, untill one of you run out of resources or some other players come.

Zlater

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Annulment and morpsh (harness/dampen) shouldnt work with any other dmg shield if you ask me.

I have absolutely no issue with shield stacking, it should be encouraged and I think it should be made a bit easier for stamina users, especially tanks.

These things are true, there are a few notes I think you will find useful.
50% of a sorcs dps come from projectiles.
Most sorcs put both harness healing ward and Hardened ward on a separate 'defensive' bar, usually on their resto staff bar. This means they are typically fight or flight all of the time.
Sorcs also spend the most time of all of the classes in execute range.

I really think harness is fine, I think that bone shield should be made to be able to scale off stamina though and battle spirit adjusted.

3 skill bars isn't something to bang on about though. Sorcs are already very limited with their skill slots because we need a lot of non class skills for the buffs, not to mention the obsurd amount of toggles -.- I've never seen a sorc use skills from his overload bar as part of his rotation.

Magicka sorcs are easymode when they fight other magicka classes 1v1. The other class has to significantly outplay the sorc to get the kill. If you're a magic sorc and lose 1v1 against a magblade (and magblades are very good) then you either made a big mistake or he was WAY better than you.

I know reflect works wonders, it will also run magic users out of stamina if spammed. Is everyone really ok with sorcs ruling over other magic classes? Should magic classes have to be a bosmer or redguard just to counter (sort of) sorcs? I would love to be proven wrong here.

If you're using defensive stance you will reflect and stun which means that there's a good chance a quarter of the shield is gone already and they are forced to cc break with only 9ishk in stamina. You are already setup for the win, if they can't cc break then you have a free kill. You could also consider slotting the, WW and vamp ults, or using Potentates or blood spawn in your build or even just slotting a 2-handed weapon for the passive stam regen. These are all options you have avaliable to you that you should probably be using in Pvp regardless.

You have to pack some counters in your build, it's pvp not some pledge. I'm sorry I'm not pointing at anyone, but I know there are those people here who feel entitled to be good in Cyro regardless of their pvp experience.

Birdovic

Sorc are killable just like any other class, it's just about knowing tactics, knowing to play your character and weaknesses of the classes. Low stamina being the biggest weakness of a sorc. Take it away and you're good to go.

OdinForge

Sorcs are a lot more grounded this patch, still I wouldn't bring anything but a magicka Templar or any stamina based class to fight one.

Harness Magicka is the enemy.

Cody

the issues with shield stacking cannot be attributed to the sorcerers. People need to stop blaming X class for everything and start looking at the actual issues.

WreckfulAbandon

OdinForge wrote: »

Sorcs are a lot more grounded this patch, still I wouldn't bring anything but a magicka Templar or any stamina based class to fight one.

Harness Magicka is the enemy.

As a magic user since launch, I can definitely say at this point that Harness is the enemy. It really isn't as bad in 1.7 either, so I'm just gonna tweak my build a bit for more dmg and slot Harness myself for these long fights

_adhyffbjjjf12

Harness protects you from <=1 attack at the cost of a cast and therefore a lost attack, not only is it weak, it's a liability if class balancing is based on it bring there. You get someone to use harness and thru are on the back foot. The objective for an attacker IS to make them consume resources by defending and breaking cc, this is where the skill of the attacker is needed. If you allow a sorcerer space to attack rather than shield thrm it's going to be painful.

WreckfulAbandon

Zlater wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Annulment and morpsh (harness/dampen) shouldnt work with any other dmg shield if you ask me.

I have absolutely no issue with shield stacking, it should be encouraged and I think it should be made a bit easier for stamina users, especially tanks.

These things are true, there are a few notes I think you will find useful.
50% of a sorcs dps come from projectiles.
Most sorcs put both harness healing ward and Hardened ward on a separate 'defensive' bar, usually on their resto staff bar. This means they are typically fight or flight all of the time.
Sorcs also spend the most time of all of the classes in execute range.

I really think harness is fine, I think that bone shield should be made to be able to scale off stamina though and battle spirit adjusted.

3 skill bars isn't something to bang on about though. Sorcs are already very limited with their skill slots because we need a lot of non class skills for the buffs, not to mention the obsurd amount of toggles -.- I've never seen a sorc use skills from his overload bar as part of his rotation.

Magicka sorcs are easymode when they fight other magicka classes 1v1. The other class has to significantly outplay the sorc to get the kill. If you're a magic sorc and lose 1v1 against a magblade (and magblades are very good) then you either made a big mistake or he was WAY better than you.

I know reflect works wonders, it will also run magic users out of stamina if spammed. Is everyone really ok with sorcs ruling over other magic classes? Should magic classes have to be a bosmer or redguard just to counter (sort of) sorcs? I would love to be proven wrong here.

If you're using defensive stance you will reflect and stun which means that there's a good chance a quarter of the shield is gone already and they are forced to cc break with only 9ishk in stamina. You are already setup for the win, if they can't cc break then you have a free kill. You could also consider slotting the, WW and vamp ults, or using Potentates or blood spawn in your build or even just slotting a 2-handed weapon for the passive stam regen. These are all options you have avaliable to you that you should probably be using in Pvp regardless.

You have to pack some counters in your build, it's pvp not some pledge. I'm sorry I'm not pointing at anyone, but I know there are those people here who feel entitled to be good in Cyro regardless of their pvp experience.

I know why you said it's PvP and not a pledge, and understand why you had to say that, but I'm not one of those players. I'm new on the forums but have played ESO since April 2014 with a few breaks here and there. I don't feel entitled to anything in PvP, I just made this thread because it's pretty clear to me (and others) that magicka sorcs have always enjoyed a lot of extra tankiness versus other magicka users. Sorcs can spec for dmg, be tanky, spec for healing, be tanky, spec for tanky, be tanky. This is somewhat balanced by the large number of stamina users out there so I'm just gonna think of it like rock, paper, scissors, and move on. I know no one claims that this is the most balanced game out there.

The real reason I responded so late to your post is that I just noticed you were defending sorcs having 3 bars. You do make a fair point with the toggles, but if you're running toggles in PvP you're probably gimping yourself a little. On my stamina sorc I run overload just for the third bar, it allows me to use one toggle and then gives four spaces to more than make up for the tactical limitations of having that toggle. The overload bar helps me tremendously as it allows me to have Caltrops, Retreating Maneuvers, and Evasion on a permanent "flex" bar so I can focus on damage on my other 2 bars. So I can say that it is definitely an advantageous setup having 3 skillbars .

Ryska

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Then you are either a beastmode temp or the sorcs you fight are all tyros and recruits..

And what, pray tell, is your issue with Tyros, @WreckfulAbandon ?