Nerf NB Cloak, Sorc Shields, DK Talons, Buff Templars.

Fizzlewizzle

Titles, they work like a charm.
My guess would be that when you read it you got triggered faster than a Feminazi in front of an Abortion clinic... but, all jokes aside.

I started this topic not to ask for nerfs, buffs or anything... but just talk about balance and my personal view of it.
To start off about myself, I play as an Argonian Templar (since launch), have tried Sorcs and Nightblades... but i never really liked them.
I never really gave DK's a chance, since they seem pretty focused towards tanking, and i'm the type of guy who runs away first if anything goes wrong (meaning i wouldn't be fit as a Tank).
I'm the guy (well, ingame girl) who stands at the back and tries to keep everyone alive. It's the safest position one can be in. You don't actively draw attention to yourself from hostile mobs, and if sh^t hits the fan there are (most likely) 3 people between you and death.

In PvP i have faced every other class, in both 1v1 and XvX battles. Both as a healer, a tank and as a *** attempt to be an dps.
What is my general experience: Death. No matter if it is a Templar, a DK, a Sorc or a NB... you guys generally kick my ass, and i have never killed any of you (who wasn't afk) in a 1v1 fight.

Nightblades,
You guys are a real pain in the ass. You hit like a truck, scare the *** out of me (Aspect of terror?), after which you proceed to one or two shot me because i can do nothing to defend myself. Would i say you need a nerf... nah.
Generally the only times a NB has killed me is when i was playing as a healer or DPS. Purely focused on one task, with low health and a lot of Magicka.
They seem to generally go for the "3 second fight or run tactic". If they can't kill you in a split second (Opener + scare time = execute range) they just run away. It's a class with a very high offensive focus, with not much else to offer (at least in PvP).
They can't seem to handle extended face to face combat. Maybe because no one tried such a build yet (and be successful with it), or because they don't really have much potential that way.
I sometimes hear about Sap Tanks, but as we all know a Tank has very little to offer in PvP areas.

Dragonknights.
Tanky as hell. Use a spell and they reflect it, use melee and they mitigate it.
You see some offensive ones, most of the times the whip spammers (until recently when i started running into those new "Bullseye" builds), but my most common experience with them is that they drain your resources (by reflecting and mitigating damage) after which they kill you with mediocre damage.
You can't really run away against these guys. Using a Gap closer with Talons is an easy combo, and breaking it (repeatedly) means your out of stamina and become an easy target.
The downside they seem to have is that they can't really escape. They might tank you, but when you are stronger they can't disengage and run.

Sorcerers.
They just wreck face. CC, Knockdowns, and as surprise an ultimate that can melt steel beams .
They are very much like Nightblades, But rather then burst damage they have a more consistent, high-powered attack style. They are a lot better at the endurance game then Nightblades, although they are a bit slower.
Just like nightblades (however), they seem to be the type that can't handle a direct confrontation well. Very often you come across a sorc who has insane damage, but can't sustain it for a longer period of time or gets his ass kicked when you get past their shields.
Although i agree the shield can be a bit of a bother, why do you think something as simple as shieldbreaker wrecks them so much? It's not like it hits that much, it's because they hardly have any health to begin with.

Templars.
I don't see them that often, at least not in combat. 95% of the Templars i have seen use nothing but healing skills to keep everyone alive (or the occasional Radiant Destruction).
I have come across a few Templars who fought, but it wasn't like they wrecked face or anything. They killed me (nonetheless), but it wasn't a "boom-your-dead" fight, but more a "i-drain-your-stamina-so-you-can't-block-anymore-after-which-i-sap-your-health" fight. Even with the ***-build i ran that day it took about 10-20 seconds for them to kill me (against NB's it was a Boom-Dead fight. No chance at all).
Can't really say much as i hardly ever fought them. The "kill 20 Templar" quests are the hardest once to complete in cyrodiil, which does say alot about the amount of healers (or fighters) you face.


Then again... it's not like i die against every enemy i have faced (i'm not that sad ).

It seems that Nightblades really need that Burst damage. If they can't pull you in execute range they can't win.
I have encountered enough Nightblades who ran away without me ever needing to touch a button (besides Block), simply because my Health regen was high enough to mitigate all their normal damage (Yes, playing around with Health regen is already enough to counter an average NB).
My guess would be that it works the same with healing, which makes me understand why they use that scare skill so much. They can't deal enough damage between the opener and finisher to counter any healing (just a theory though).

Dk's have (almost) the same problem. They might be bulky, but their damage is nothing more than average. Again, i have countered quite a few DK's (even pre-IC update) with nothing more than Health regen, or just tanked them while healing myself. As i'm not much of a fighter i generally just tank these guys until teammates show up to finish him off.

Sorcs are a bit bigger problem.
I haven't really faced a Sorc 1v1 since the IC update, but before the IC update they were pretty fun to toy with.
Because their general offense is magic a simple skill like Defensive stance or Total Dark is their bane. Who cares is you have (had) a 20K shield if your own overload can 1-shot it. First attack kill your shield, the second attack will kill youself.
(He couldn't even Bolt away since we were inside a dungeon. He would draw all the mobs trying to get away, which means he would have to fight (with magic) and thus become an easy target for Total Dark.)

Templars (as mentioned before) hardly need countering, as you see them so little. A small healing de-buff is all it takes to throw one in disarray, which is fun in its own way.


I do think that some changes will do good, not for one class only, but for multiple ones.
A lot of classes seem to use certain resource pools for multiple things at once, be it offensive or defensive.
A Sorcerer getting its shields and damage from Magicka, or a Templar getting his damage and healing from magicka are problems on their own.
You also have skills that rely on damage for their healing. This created Glass Cannon builds with High survival Rates.

I think that damage should be damage. No strings attached.
Healing should be based on (max) health and health regeneration.
And shields on Max Health and Physical/ Spell resistance.

A few simple examples:
Puncturing Sweep. Heals 40% of the damage done.
The more enemies you face, the easier it is to stay alive. How stupid it may sound, the more enemies i face with my Templar the MORE likely i am to FIGHT.
Damage + Healing is a very bad combo. If you want people to heal while fighting make it percentage based.
Example: Heal 10% max HP per hit (40% max health for 4 hits).
A low health High damage player will heal less than a Low damage high Health player, but in turn the health based player will be able to use it less often than the damage focused player, because its tied to magicka.
Skills like Puncturing Sweep:
- Critical Surge (sorc)
- Strife (NB)
- Sap Essence (NB)
- Flame Leash (DK)
- Burning Embers (DK)

Normal healing skills:
You allow the guy that's there to keep everyone alive to fight on equal footings as everyone else. "Stack Weapon and Spell damage to get decent healing... ow, and it also works for your damage".
You have a lot of people who FORGET their job as a healer because they wanna hit someone for whatever reason. If you need to drain Magicka, i don't care, but just because you can execute someone with decent damage doesn't mean you should.
If you were to make it a combo of a health % bonus and health regeneration you would take away the "temptation" of doing other ***.
Heal X% of the targets max health, as well as X Health (normal heal, based on the caster's health regen).

For a skill like Regeneration (Restoration staff) you could give back 1-2% max health, as well as X health (Based on Health regeneration) per tick.
More powerful skills (Breath of Life) could get bigger max HP percentages, as well as their (increased) normal healing, which should again be based on Health regeneration.
It would give Tanks bigger heals than a standard DPS guy (which they most likely will need).
For a Healer going Full Health + High Health regen (invincible mode?) wouldn't be an option, as you would still need magicka to cast your precious heals.

A skill like Dragon Blood, which now scales of missing health, could go for a combo of Missing health (Majority) and Max Health (minority).
Missing health means its only useable if you're (extremely) wounded. Making it use max health as well makes it more viable in multiple situations.

Damage shields:
Like before, damage shields use the same stats as most offensive skills use (Blazing shield and Bone shield are the only exception).
A Glass cannon build shouldn't gain as much use from a shield as a Tank build. All shields should, like Bone Shield and Blazing shield, be based on Max health.
A secondary effect could be 50% Max health, and 50% Resistances, in which case the Resistance used could be determined by the type of shield it is.
An all round shield (Blazing shield, Hardened Ward and Steadfast Ward for example) would work of 50% max health, 25% Spell resistance and 25% Physical resistance.
Bone Shield would work of 50% max health and 50% Physical Resistance while Annulment works of 50% Max health and 50% spell resistance.
Even though a Glass Cannon doesn't have much health, they at least have some Spell/ Physical Resistance (often higher than their Health), so it's not like a shield will instantly become useless.

LordSemaj

We had a templar tank and heal a veteran dungeon for us. At the same time.

Clearly he had way too many CP.

Fizzlewizzle

Cp is indeed a problem. Having enough makes every class and every build successful.
In the Past (on the PTS) i've been able to Walk inside Hell Ra on a (Argonian) Templar and just tank and kill those hordes of enemies. 20+ enemies made for a 12 man group, not a single problem.

I'm really happy that there will be a CP cap with the upcoming update. It will make the difference between the "overgeared" and "avarage" player much smaller, which might decrease the requests for Nerfs as those CP farmers won't be as OP anymore.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hmm...... No

Counter argument

Buff cloak counters to be actually useful, Get ride of shield stacking and block casting, simply roll out of the roots not jsut DKs talons or block them, and yes templars along with DKs need some buffs.

Kammakazi

Sounds like an L2P problemo

Cazzy

Gilvoth

i enjoyed reading this and could feel your honesty, its not very often we see good reads like this one with alot of detail and honesty.
good read and ty for sharing.

Eshelmen

If done right, you can't deny sorcs are the best tanks in the game. lol (PVP)
Which is ridiculous. A sorc should never be able to get hit harder than a tank, ever. I don't care what you say.
A sorc SHOULD have the highest DPS imo, yet as squishy as a Nightblade.
A templar has heals, but should benefit most with medium armor and has both ranged and melee dps.
A tank should be either able to take on a few players at once, yet limited DPS yet EXCELLENT defense.
A Nightblade is a lame excuse for taking kills. I have zero respect for any NB/Rogue character in an mmo. It's cheap, it's ignorant and it screams "I'm a child". But that's my opinion.

dday3six

Eshelmen wrote: »

If done right, you can't deny sorcs are the best tanks in the game. lol (PVP)
Which is ridiculous. A sorc should never be able to get hit harder than a tank, ever. I don't care what you say.
A sorc SHOULD have the highest DPS imo, yet as squishy as a Nightblade.
A templar has heals, but should benefit most with medium armor and has both ranged and melee dps.
A tank should be either able to take on a few players at once, yet limited DPS yet EXCELLENT defense.
A Nightblade is a lame excuse for taking kills. I have zero respect for any NB/Rogue character in an mmo. It's cheap, it's ignorant and it screams "I'm a child". But that's my opinion.

Well it's a good thing you're not in charge of the game. I was having trouble thinking of worse decisions that could be made for ESO until I read your post.

Eshelmen

Why would I be in charge of the game? What a lame response.

dday3six

Eshelmen wrote: »

Why would I be in charge of the game? What a lame response.

It's a saying and it's one that is clearly new to you.

Eshelmen

It's a weak sarcastic remark. Which is unoriginal. How bland of you.

It's not my fault you're offended by my opinion. Check yourself mang it's only a game.

dday3six

Eshelmen wrote: »

It's a weak sarcastic remark. Which is unoriginal. How bland of you.

It's not my fault you're offended by my opinion. Check yourself mang it's only a game.

And it's not my fault you can't handle criticism of your ideas.

J2JMC

The only people who think templars are weak are the ones who don't pve.

Eshelmen wrote: »

If done right, you can't deny sorcs are the best tanks in the game. lol (PVP)
Which is ridiculous. A sorc should never be able to get hit harder than a tank, ever. I don't care what you say.
A sorc SHOULD have the highest DPS imo, yet as squishy as a Nightblade.
A templar has heals, but should benefit most with medium armor and has both ranged and melee dps.
A tank should be either able to take on a few players at once, yet limited DPS yet EXCELLENT defense.
A Nightblade is a lame excuse for taking kills. I have zero respect for any NB/Rogue character in an mmo. It's cheap, it's ignorant and it screams "I'm a child". But that's my opinion.

What makes this post all the better is your signature.

Korah_Eaglecry

Is this a Nerf Every Class I dont play thread?

drogon1

J2JMC wrote: »

The only people who think templars are weak are the ones who don't pve.

Eshelmen wrote: »

If done right, you can't deny sorcs are the best tanks in the game. lol (PVP)
Which is ridiculous. A sorc should never be able to get hit harder than a tank, ever. I don't care what you say.
A sorc SHOULD have the highest DPS imo, yet as squishy as a Nightblade.
A templar has heals, but should benefit most with medium armor and has both ranged and melee dps.
A tank should be either able to take on a few players at once, yet limited DPS yet EXCELLENT defense.
A Nightblade is a lame excuse for taking kills. I have zero respect for any NB/Rogue character in an mmo. It's cheap, it's ignorant and it screams "I'm a child". But that's my opinion.

What makes this post all the better is your signature.

Oh my lordy, that first sentence had me rolling, still has me rolling. LOL.

"The only people who think templars are weak are the ones who don't pve." - sig-worthy for sure.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

This is the Real Reason people are crying for nerfs. Aka, the root of the problem.

dodgehopper_ESO

Bravo @fizzlewizzle. You have done a great job iterating my concerns with the way tanking works in the game. The core problem is that high magic or stamina not only determine damage output, but also the quality of a heal or the resiliency of ones powers. Health as a stat really offers very little, even on a templar... You just need enough yo not get one shot. This is a bad system which for the first time in a game has me considering not tanking. I would love to see a system whereby tanks might not fire as many powers as dps or heals, but their warrior skills, blocking, bashing, heavy and light atta ks were more meaningful and relevant. The quality of ALL tanking effects should scale, just as it does on sun shield. It will be a better game if they do this.

Funkopotamus

ESO just doesn't follow traditional MMO's as far as group play goes..

The game doesn't need a group of Tank/DPS/Healer to finish content like other MMO's. ESO is more of a run-N-gun type of game.. I like to think of it like Diablo set in the ElderScrolls Universe! The game basically is just to "easy" Most of the content lets groups just ZurgSmashTurboSpeedRun through it and I H-A-T-E it lol.

I had hope that ESO would be a challenging MMO that would actually make players work together and that content would be "Harder" to compete. Yes you are correct the tanking in this game is comical at best. I love tanking in MMO's, but in ESO all content is dead after 2 maybe 3 hits. The bosses might take a minutes to kill at the end of dungeons, but even then it is nothing compared to other MMO's


I might get tackleSmashed for saying this, but I wish ESO had dungeon mechanics like "Rift" I have played about every MMO worth playing since the very first MMO's and I will say that "Rift" was one of the hardest games to tank in that I have ever had the pleasure of playing.. That game was brutal and if your tank did not know WTF he was doing your party got wiped... QUICKLY!

ZOS are just now trying to get a grip on the runaway CP system that they irresponsibly threw in here. "I say that because there is no way ZOS looked at the long term effects beforehand"... At least now with the CP cap ZOS can at least make a confident attempt at class balancing and who knows they might even make an attempt at fixing the game mechanics to make the game not feel so much like "BabiesFirstMMO".

I like ESO I truly do.. I just wish ZOS would have done so many things differently..

ESO could have been so much more. I still have hope for the game. Maybe an overhaul to the mechanics of tanking and dungeons will happen now that they will have fixed numbers to work with instead of trying to "Balance" the game around 3 groups of players..

Group 1.. Little to no CP
Group 2.. Little to moderate CP
Group 3 .. A bunch to OMG! 2K+ CP..

pepperybrine

Solar prison is nerfed........ It was the best ultimate in game, it has no damage reduction since IC.(or it is a bug but i hate it)

shadow071179

Sorry mate but is this not the root of the problem.

Your own Quote:
In PvP i have faced every other class, in both 1v1 and XvX battles. Both as a healer, a tank and as a *** attempt to be an dps.
What is my general experience: Death. No matter if it is a Templar, a DK, a Sorc or a NB... you guys generally kick my ass, and i have never killed any of you (who wasn't afk) in a 1v1 fight.

Im sick of people who dont know how to play the game calling to NERF every skil thats giving them a hard time.

Just learn to play the game or go back to a game you can win.

Van_0S

How funny is that I see threads to nerf NB cloak but before the fix(cloak), NB was the weakest class (due to no heal spell) and now they are finally shining in the threads.

Serioisly, if zeni decides to nerf cloak then they should do something to balance the NB, like add a good healing spell.

Almost all class have healing, the sorc as critical surge (which gives boost to attack and heal),DK (green dragon blood) and the pure healing class (templars).

Fizzlewizzle

shadow071179 wrote: »

Sorry mate but is this not the root of the problem.

Your own Quote:
In PvP i have faced every other class, in both 1v1 and XvX battles. Both as a healer, a tank and as a *** attempt to be an dps.
What is my general experience: Death. No matter if it is a Templar, a DK, a Sorc or a NB... you guys generally kick my ass, and i have never killed any of you (who wasn't afk) in a 1v1 fight.

Im sick of people who don't know how to play the game calling to NERF every skil thats giving them a hard time.

Just learn to play the game or go back to a game you can win.

Ah, let me guess... you stopped reading after the part you quoted?
I have never asked for a Nerf or anything. My opinion is that the game is quite balanced for a matter of fact.
The only thing i see a problem with is certain classes and skills gaining both offensive and defensive skills of the same stats/ resource pools.

When i say that, most people will jump on the bandwagon and scream "he wants a Sorc nerf", but Sorcerers aren't the only once with this problem. Templars also have this problem, as well as Nightblades and even Dragon Knights.
Yes, i mentioned every class can kill me without much problems, but maybe i shouldn't walk around in Cyrodiil with 14K HP.
As i have written down, every class has their strong and weak points. While they excel at one point, they have enough weaknesses to exploit.

You're the type of guy who i talked about in the first two sentences.
You see a title, jump to a conclusion and doesn't seem to read before posting.

Frawr

Good post, agree.

It's also obvious who hasn't read the op haha.

Malmai

Templar OP Nerf PLS

DEATHquidox

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Titles, they work like a charm.
My guess would be that when you read it you got triggered faster than a Feminazi in front of an Abortion clinic... but, all jokes aside.

I started this topic not to ask for nerfs, buffs or anything... but just talk about balance and my personal view of it.
To start off about myself, I play as an Argonian Templar (since launch), have tried Sorcs and Nightblades... but i never really liked them.
I never really gave DK's a chance, since they seem pretty focused towards tanking, and i'm the type of guy who runs away first if anything goes wrong (meaning i wouldn't be fit as a Tank).
I'm the guy (well, ingame girl) who stands at the back and tries to keep everyone alive. It's the safest position one can be in. You don't actively draw attention to yourself from hostile mobs, and if sh^t hits the fan there are (most likely) 3 people between you and death.

In PvP i have faced every other class, in both 1v1 and XvX battles. Both as a healer, a tank and as a *** attempt to be an dps.
What is my general experience: Death. No matter if it is a Templar, a DK, a Sorc or a NB... you guys generally kick my ass, and i have never killed any of you (who wasn't afk) in a 1v1 fight.

Nightblades,
You guys are a real pain in the ass. You hit like a truck, scare the *** out of me (Aspect of terror?), after which you proceed to one or two shot me because i can do nothing to defend myself. Would i say you need a nerf... nah.
Generally the only times a NB has killed me is when i was playing as a healer or DPS. Purely focused on one task, with low health and a lot of Magicka.
They seem to generally go for the "3 second fight or run tactic". If they can't kill you in a split second (Opener + scare time = execute range) they just run away. It's a class with a very high offensive focus, with not much else to offer (at least in PvP).
They can't seem to handle extended face to face combat. Maybe because no one tried such a build yet (and be successful with it), or because they don't really have much potential that way.
I sometimes hear about Sap Tanks, but as we all know a Tank has very little to offer in PvP areas.

Dragonknights.
Tanky as hell. Use a spell and they reflect it, use melee and they mitigate it.
You see some offensive ones, most of the times the whip spammers (until recently when i started running into those new "Bullseye" builds), but my most common experience with them is that they drain your resources (by reflecting and mitigating damage) after which they kill you with mediocre damage.
You can't really run away against these guys. Using a Gap closer with Talons is an easy combo, and breaking it (repeatedly) means your out of stamina and become an easy target.
The downside they seem to have is that they can't really escape. They might tank you, but when you are stronger they can't disengage and run.

Sorcerers.
They just wreck face. CC, Knockdowns, and as surprise an ultimate that can melt steel beams .
They are very much like Nightblades, But rather then burst damage they have a more consistent, high-powered attack style. They are a lot better at the endurance game then Nightblades, although they are a bit slower.
Just like nightblades (however), they seem to be the type that can't handle a direct confrontation well. Very often you come across a sorc who has insane damage, but can't sustain it for a longer period of time or gets his ass kicked when you get past their shields.
Although i agree the shield can be a bit of a bother, why do you think something as simple as shieldbreaker wrecks them so much? It's not like it hits that much, it's because they hardly have any health to begin with.

Templars.
I don't see them that often, at least not in combat. 95% of the Templars i have seen use nothing but healing skills to keep everyone alive (or the occasional Radiant Destruction).
I have come across a few Templars who fought, but it wasn't like they wrecked face or anything. They killed me (nonetheless), but it wasn't a "boom-your-dead" fight, but more a "i-drain-your-stamina-so-you-can't-block-anymore-after-which-i-sap-your-health" fight. Even with the ***-build i ran that day it took about 10-20 seconds for them to kill me (against NB's it was a Boom-Dead fight. No chance at all).
Can't really say much as i hardly ever fought them. The "kill 20 Templar" quests are the hardest once to complete in cyrodiil, which does say alot about the amount of healers (or fighters) you face.


Then again... it's not like i die against every enemy i have faced (i'm not that sad ).

It seems that Nightblades really need that Burst damage. If they can't pull you in execute range they can't win.
I have encountered enough Nightblades who ran away without me ever needing to touch a button (besides Block), simply because my Health regen was high enough to mitigate all their normal damage (Yes, playing around with Health regen is already enough to counter an average NB).
My guess would be that it works the same with healing, which makes me understand why they use that scare skill so much. They can't deal enough damage between the opener and finisher to counter any healing (just a theory though).

Dk's have (almost) the same problem. They might be bulky, but their damage is nothing more than average. Again, i have countered quite a few DK's (even pre-IC update) with nothing more than Health regen, or just tanked them while healing myself. As i'm not much of a fighter i generally just tank these guys until teammates show up to finish him off.

Sorcs are a bit bigger problem.
I haven't really faced a Sorc 1v1 since the IC update, but before the IC update they were pretty fun to toy with.
Because their general offense is magic a simple skill like Defensive stance or Total Dark is their bane. Who cares is you have (had) a 20K shield if your own overload can 1-shot it. First attack kill your shield, the second attack will kill youself.
(He couldn't even Bolt away since we were inside a dungeon. He would draw all the mobs trying to get away, which means he would have to fight (with magic) and thus become an easy target for Total Dark.)

Templars (as mentioned before) hardly need countering, as you see them so little. A small healing de-buff is all it takes to throw one in disarray, which is fun in its own way.


I do think that some changes will do good, not for one class only, but for multiple ones.
A lot of classes seem to use certain resource pools for multiple things at once, be it offensive or defensive.
A Sorcerer getting its shields and damage from Magicka, or a Templar getting his damage and healing from magicka are problems on their own.
You also have skills that rely on damage for their healing. This created Glass Cannon builds with High survival Rates.

I think that damage should be damage. No strings attached.
Healing should be based on (max) health and health regeneration.
And shields on Max Health and Physical/ Spell resistance.

A few simple examples:
Puncturing Sweep. Heals 40% of the damage done.
The more enemies you face, the easier it is to stay alive. How stupid it may sound, the more enemies i face with my Templar the MORE likely i am to FIGHT.
Damage + Healing is a very bad combo. If you want people to heal while fighting make it percentage based.
Example: Heal 10% max HP per hit (40% max health for 4 hits).
A low health High damage player will heal less than a Low damage high Health player, but in turn the health based player will be able to use it less often than the damage focused player, because its tied to magicka.
Skills like Puncturing Sweep:
- Critical Surge (sorc)
- Strife (NB)
- Sap Essence (NB)
- Flame Leash (DK)
- Burning Embers (DK)

Normal healing skills:
You allow the guy that's there to keep everyone alive to fight on equal footings as everyone else. "Stack Weapon and Spell damage to get decent healing... ow, and it also works for your damage".
You have a lot of people who FORGET their job as a healer because they wanna hit someone for whatever reason. If you need to drain Magicka, i don't care, but just because you can execute someone with decent damage doesn't mean you should.
If you were to make it a combo of a health % bonus and health regeneration you would take away the "temptation" of doing other ***.
Heal X% of the targets max health, as well as X Health (normal heal, based on the caster's health regen).

For a skill like Regeneration (Restoration staff) you could give back 1-2% max health, as well as X health (Based on Health regeneration) per tick.
More powerful skills (Breath of Life) could get bigger max HP percentages, as well as their (increased) normal healing, which should again be based on Health regeneration.
It would give Tanks bigger heals than a standard DPS guy (which they most likely will need).
For a Healer going Full Health + High Health regen (invincible mode?) wouldn't be an option, as you would still need magicka to cast your precious heals.

A skill like Dragon Blood, which now scales of missing health, could go for a combo of Missing health (Majority) and Max Health (minority).
Missing health means its only useable if you're (extremely) wounded. Making it use max health as well makes it more viable in multiple situations.

Damage shields:
Like before, damage shields use the same stats as most offensive skills use (Blazing shield and Bone shield are the only exception).
A Glass cannon build shouldn't gain as much use from a shield as a Tank build. All shields should, like Bone Shield and Blazing shield, be based on Max health.
A secondary effect could be 50% Max health, and 50% Resistances, in which case the Resistance used could be determined by the type of shield it is.
An all round shield (Blazing shield, Hardened Ward and Steadfast Ward for example) would work of 50% max health, 25% Spell resistance and 25% Physical resistance.
Bone Shield would work of 50% max health and 50% Physical Resistance while Annulment works of 50% Max health and 50% spell resistance.
Even though a Glass Cannon doesn't have much health, they at least have some Spell/ Physical Resistance (often higher than their Health), so it's not like a shield will instantly become useless.

Okay so if you are vet 16 still with vet 14 armor on you will die from anyone with vet 16 armor theu hit way harder now ive seeen sorcs sitting on 3300 spell power unbuffed instant kill me when i barely hurt them its not just the class is bad ass its simply that the gear difference is a huge one now due to the difficulty of getting it

dodgehopper_ESO

I think that in general combat would be a bit more interesting as well if they made light/heavy attacks, blocking, rolling, sprinting and bashing be effected by the health stat. The warrior build needs love. I'm not talking about Tanks being power spammers, but a gameplay style based more around using your shield, your sword, and maneuvering with occassional abilities being used. I'd be absolutely fine with this kind of playstyle if it were actually viable. Unfortunately the game as it is designed requires that you constantly spam abilities 1 to 5 +R. With the changes they've made to the game I really feel they need to completely reconsider how tanks operate. Give us simple weapon combinations (like DCUO or Skyrim), and make the health stat play a greater role. Perhaps a higher health can in and of itself could reduce costs of things like blocking, rolling, sprinting, and bashing. Perhaps a higher health could also return more resources upon light attack and heavy attack. Give us a reason to go all out on health, and we'll probably do it. Some of us actually want to play the 'Heavy Armored Knight' role. Health should also scale the effectiveness of resistance/shield and self heal based powers as well. It is a fair system, and gives people a reason to go all out on health. It would also solve the problem of people capable of blasting you with magic while spamming continual hardened wards.

Fizzlewizzle

DEATHquidox wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Titles, they work like a charm.
My guess would be that when you read it you got triggered faster than a Feminazi in front of an Abortion clinic... but, all jokes aside.

I started this topic not to ask for nerfs, buffs or anything... but just talk about balance and my personal view of it.
To start off about myself, I play as an Argonian Templar (since launch), have tried Sorcs and Nightblades... but i never really liked them.
I never really gave DK's a chance, since they seem pretty focused towards tanking, and i'm the type of guy who runs away first if anything goes wrong (meaning i wouldn't be fit as a Tank).
I'm the guy (well, ingame girl) who stands at the back and tries to keep everyone alive. It's the safest position one can be in. You don't actively draw attention to yourself from hostile mobs, and if sh^t hits the fan there are (most likely) 3 people between you and death.

In PvP i have faced every other class, in both 1v1 and XvX battles. Both as a healer, a tank and as a *** attempt to be an dps.
What is my general experience: Death. No matter if it is a Templar, a DK, a Sorc or a NB... you guys generally kick my ass, and i have never killed any of you (who wasn't afk) in a 1v1 fight.

Nightblades,
You guys are a real pain in the ass. You hit like a truck, scare the *** out of me (Aspect of terror?), after which you proceed to one or two shot me because i can do nothing to defend myself. Would i say you need a nerf... nah.
Generally the only times a NB has killed me is when i was playing as a healer or DPS. Purely focused on one task, with low health and a lot of Magicka.
They seem to generally go for the "3 second fight or run tactic". If they can't kill you in a split second (Opener + scare time = execute range) they just run away. It's a class with a very high offensive focus, with not much else to offer (at least in PvP).
They can't seem to handle extended face to face combat. Maybe because no one tried such a build yet (and be successful with it), or because they don't really have much potential that way.
I sometimes hear about Sap Tanks, but as we all know a Tank has very little to offer in PvP areas.

Dragonknights.
Tanky as hell. Use a spell and they reflect it, use melee and they mitigate it.
You see some offensive ones, most of the times the whip spammers (until recently when i started running into those new "Bullseye" builds), but my most common experience with them is that they drain your resources (by reflecting and mitigating damage) after which they kill you with mediocre damage.
You can't really run away against these guys. Using a Gap closer with Talons is an easy combo, and breaking it (repeatedly) means your out of stamina and become an easy target.
The downside they seem to have is that they can't really escape. They might tank you, but when you are stronger they can't disengage and run.

Sorcerers.
They just wreck face. CC, Knockdowns, and as surprise an ultimate that can melt steel beams .
They are very much like Nightblades, But rather then burst damage they have a more consistent, high-powered attack style. They are a lot better at the endurance game then Nightblades, although they are a bit slower.
Just like nightblades (however), they seem to be the type that can't handle a direct confrontation well. Very often you come across a sorc who has insane damage, but can't sustain it for a longer period of time or gets his ass kicked when you get past their shields.
Although i agree the shield can be a bit of a bother, why do you think something as simple as shieldbreaker wrecks them so much? It's not like it hits that much, it's because they hardly have any health to begin with.

Templars.
I don't see them that often, at least not in combat. 95% of the Templars i have seen use nothing but healing skills to keep everyone alive (or the occasional Radiant Destruction).
I have come across a few Templars who fought, but it wasn't like they wrecked face or anything. They killed me (nonetheless), but it wasn't a "boom-your-dead" fight, but more a "i-drain-your-stamina-so-you-can't-block-anymore-after-which-i-sap-your-health" fight. Even with the ***-build i ran that day it took about 10-20 seconds for them to kill me (against NB's it was a Boom-Dead fight. No chance at all).
Can't really say much as i hardly ever fought them. The "kill 20 Templar" quests are the hardest once to complete in cyrodiil, which does say alot about the amount of healers (or fighters) you face.


Then again... it's not like i die against every enemy i have faced (i'm not that sad ).

It seems that Nightblades really need that Burst damage. If they can't pull you in execute range they can't win.
I have encountered enough Nightblades who ran away without me ever needing to touch a button (besides Block), simply because my Health regen was high enough to mitigate all their normal damage (Yes, playing around with Health regen is already enough to counter an average NB).
My guess would be that it works the same with healing, which makes me understand why they use that scare skill so much. They can't deal enough damage between the opener and finisher to counter any healing (just a theory though).

Dk's have (almost) the same problem. They might be bulky, but their damage is nothing more than average. Again, i have countered quite a few DK's (even pre-IC update) with nothing more than Health regen, or just tanked them while healing myself. As i'm not much of a fighter i generally just tank these guys until teammates show up to finish him off.

Sorcs are a bit bigger problem.
I haven't really faced a Sorc 1v1 since the IC update, but before the IC update they were pretty fun to toy with.
Because their general offense is magic a simple skill like Defensive stance or Total Dark is their bane. Who cares is you have (had) a 20K shield if your own overload can 1-shot it. First attack kill your shield, the second attack will kill youself.
(He couldn't even Bolt away since we were inside a dungeon. He would draw all the mobs trying to get away, which means he would have to fight (with magic) and thus become an easy target for Total Dark.)

Templars (as mentioned before) hardly need countering, as you see them so little. A small healing de-buff is all it takes to throw one in disarray, which is fun in its own way.


I do think that some changes will do good, not for one class only, but for multiple ones.
A lot of classes seem to use certain resource pools for multiple things at once, be it offensive or defensive.
A Sorcerer getting its shields and damage from Magicka, or a Templar getting his damage and healing from magicka are problems on their own.
You also have skills that rely on damage for their healing. This created Glass Cannon builds with High survival Rates.

I think that damage should be damage. No strings attached.
Healing should be based on (max) health and health regeneration.
And shields on Max Health and Physical/ Spell resistance.

A few simple examples:
Puncturing Sweep. Heals 40% of the damage done.
The more enemies you face, the easier it is to stay alive. How stupid it may sound, the more enemies i face with my Templar the MORE likely i am to FIGHT.
Damage + Healing is a very bad combo. If you want people to heal while fighting make it percentage based.
Example: Heal 10% max HP per hit (40% max health for 4 hits).
A low health High damage player will heal less than a Low damage high Health player, but in turn the health based player will be able to use it less often than the damage focused player, because its tied to magicka.
Skills like Puncturing Sweep:
- Critical Surge (sorc)
- Strife (NB)
- Sap Essence (NB)
- Flame Leash (DK)
- Burning Embers (DK)

Normal healing skills:
You allow the guy that's there to keep everyone alive to fight on equal footings as everyone else. "Stack Weapon and Spell damage to get decent healing... ow, and it also works for your damage".
You have a lot of people who FORGET their job as a healer because they wanna hit someone for whatever reason. If you need to drain Magicka, i don't care, but just because you can execute someone with decent damage doesn't mean you should.
If you were to make it a combo of a health % bonus and health regeneration you would take away the "temptation" of doing other ***.
Heal X% of the targets max health, as well as X Health (normal heal, based on the caster's health regen).

For a skill like Regeneration (Restoration staff) you could give back 1-2% max health, as well as X health (Based on Health regeneration) per tick.
More powerful skills (Breath of Life) could get bigger max HP percentages, as well as their (increased) normal healing, which should again be based on Health regeneration.
It would give Tanks bigger heals than a standard DPS guy (which they most likely will need).
For a Healer going Full Health + High Health regen (invincible mode?) wouldn't be an option, as you would still need magicka to cast your precious heals.

A skill like Dragon Blood, which now scales of missing health, could go for a combo of Missing health (Majority) and Max Health (minority).
Missing health means its only useable if you're (extremely) wounded. Making it use max health as well makes it more viable in multiple situations.

Damage shields:
Like before, damage shields use the same stats as most offensive skills use (Blazing shield and Bone shield are the only exception).
A Glass cannon build shouldn't gain as much use from a shield as a Tank build. All shields should, like Bone Shield and Blazing shield, be based on Max health.
A secondary effect could be 50% Max health, and 50% Resistances, in which case the Resistance used could be determined by the type of shield it is.
An all round shield (Blazing shield, Hardened Ward and Steadfast Ward for example) would work of 50% max health, 25% Spell resistance and 25% Physical resistance.
Bone Shield would work of 50% max health and 50% Physical Resistance while Annulment works of 50% Max health and 50% spell resistance.
Even though a Glass Cannon doesn't have much health, they at least have some Spell/ Physical Resistance (often higher than their Health), so it's not like a shield will instantly become useless.

Okay so if you are vet 16 still with vet 14 armor on you will die from anyone with vet 16 armor theu hit way harder now ive seeen sorcs sitting on 3300 spell power unbuffed instant kill me when i barely hurt them its not just the class is bad ass its simply that the gear difference is a huge one now due to the difficulty of getting it

I don't think there is that much of a difference between VR14 and VR16 armor.
Set effects only seem to be 5-10 higher (when talking about numbers close to 1K), i never payed attention to armor ratings though.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think that in general combat would be a bit more interesting as well if they made light/heavy attacks, blocking, rolling, sprinting and bashing be effected by the health stat. The warrior build needs love. I'm not talking about Tanks being power spammers, but a gameplay style based more around using your shield, your sword, and maneuvering with occassional abilities being used. I'd be absolutely fine with this kind of playstyle if it were actually viable. Unfortunately the game as it is designed requires that you constantly spam abilities 1 to 5 +R. With the changes they've made to the game I really feel they need to completely reconsider how tanks operate. Give us simple weapon combinations (like DCUO or Skyrim), and make the health stat play a greater role. Perhaps a higher health can in and of itself could reduce costs of things like blocking, rolling, sprinting, and bashing. Perhaps a higher health could also return more resources upon light attack and heavy attack. Give us a reason to go all out on health, and we'll probably do it. Some of us actually want to play the 'Heavy Armored Knight' role. Health should also scale the effectiveness of resistance/shield and self heal based powers as well. It is a fair system, and gives people a reason to go all out on health. It would also solve the problem of people capable of blasting you with magic while spamming continual hardened wards.

It would be cool if Light, heavy and Bash attacks would be determined by Max health, rather than Stamina or Magicka.
You would end up with people who use a slower attack style (Light/heavy attacks), but with quite a bit more health.
It would Gimp skill based combat while promoting weapon based combat.

I also think that more classes need a skill like Molten Weapons, though for both Light and heavy attacks. Such skills should at the same time lower skill damage, meaning you would basically promote fighting using weapons rather than skills.
(Could be placed in class skill trees (every class has buffs), or in the weapon trees themselves)

dodgehopper_ESO

That is essentially what I'm proposing yes. Strategic use of powers (bar 1-5) with a more viable 'warrior' focused combat that uses the mouse maneuvers more. Its actually something I've wished for since beta and I think it could solve a lot of the balance issues with the game. I also really wish they had combinations like DCUO had. I realize they are not the same game, but combos would be awesome here, and even the simple ones from Skyrim would be grand and go a long way. They could very easily do what Skyrim did and have Directional Strafe + heavy to do some kind of sidestepping cleave on a two hander for instance, on a staff perhaps it could be a sweep attack (knockdown). Light Light Heavy could do something else. It doesn't have to be complex, but I do think it could be a lot of fun.

UltimaJoe777

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Nerf NB Cloak, Sorc Shields, DK Talons, Buff Templars.

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to play as a Templar.

LordSemaj

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Nerf NB Cloak, Sorc Shields, DK Talons, Buff Templars.

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to play as a Templar.

You... didn't read the OP I take it. It's a joke title to get people into the topic.