stamblades with infinite roll/cloak/heal

kadar

The situation a few have pointed out where a NB is able to perma- cloak/roll/heal does exist (not any one skill used consecutively, but a rotation of the three). But only if the NBs target is a practice dummy (PVE player?). In reality the NB is stunned, pulled from stealth, and AOE'd through dodge rolls as quickly as each mechanic is executed, effectively nullifying the modified "infinite-ness" some have pointed out.

The situation, if it does exist, is simply an illustration of a perfectly executed playstlye. Any good playstyle executed to perfection will result in the death of an opponent and is not evidence of an OP class/skill/build.

Reeko

The_Outsider wrote: »

The situation a few have pointed out where a NB is able to perma- cloak/roll/heal does exist (not any one skill used consecutively, but a rotation of the three). But only if the NBs target is a practice dummy (PVE player?). In reality the NB is stunned, pulled from stealth, and AOE'd through dodge rolls as quickly as each mechanic is executed, effectively nullifying the modified "infinite-ness" some have pointed out.

The situation, if it does exist, is simply an illustration of a perfectly executed playstlye. Any good playstyle executed to perfection will result in the death of an opponent and is not evidence of an OP class/skill/build.

Thank you for summing this up so well!

rfennell_ESO

xylena wrote: »

discuss

No matter your regen about now you will run out of stamina and magicka (and soon thereafter health) as a stamina nightblade.

Now the real issue is magicka users not running out of magiicka, because that's real.

zatohonour

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Darnathian

SirAndy wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

stamblades with infinite roll/cloak/heal

don't exists ...

You would all do well to listen when Xylena has something to say. She has more time played and time invested than most.

xylena

thanks @Darnathian for the support

In reality the NB is stunned, pulled from stealth, and AOE'd through dodge rolls as quickly as each mechanic is executed, effectively nullifying the modified "infinite-ness" some have pointed out.

The situation, if it does exist, is simply an illustration of a perfectly executed playstlye.

having mostly played NB the past two months, i'm well aware of this... magblade resources deplete quickly when focused with CC, while stamblades can break free, roll 5-6 times, cloak 3-4 times with momentum and vigor bringing them back to full health, go BOO and spam surprise attack or wrecking blow (which will easily and crudely out-dps and out-burst any creative rotations or combos you can think of)... and repeat this rotation pretty much endlessly... NB should be a deep and complex class, not something you faceroll not even a full bar worth of abilities

nerf surprise attack, but BUFF killers blade and power extraction

the only cloak "nerf" should be that activating ANY self healing ability de-cloaks you (right now some abilities do, others like rally and vigor don't)

revonine

I feel the only buff Power Extraction needs is that it should scale with Mighty. It's silly that it doesn't.

OdinForge

zatohonour wrote: »

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Not sure if troll, this isn't a thing anymore.

revonine

OdinForge wrote: »

zatohonour wrote: »

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Not sure if troll, this isn't a thing anymore.

Actually it is, caltrops procs siphoning attacks. Siphoning attacks has no melee requirement unlike Ravager set. The change stopped caltrops counting as a melee attack.

OdinForge

revonine wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

zatohonour wrote: »

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Not sure if troll, this isn't a thing anymore.

Actually it is, caltrops procs siphoning attacks. Siphoning attacks has no melee requirement unlike Ravager set. The change stopped caltrops counting as a melee attack.

That's unfortunate.

GreenSoup2HoT

No offence but i would much rather have dodge roll back. It wasn't that bad. Now that damage reduction is so huge, stamina blade's can't burst you down and roll roll roll and burst someone else down quickly.

OdinForge wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

zatohonour wrote: »

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Not sure if troll, this isn't a thing anymore.

Actually it is, caltrops procs siphoning attacks. Siphoning attacks has no melee requirement unlike Ravager set. The change stopped caltrops counting as a melee attack.

That's unfortunate.

Just to clarify, caltrop's only has a chance to proc the 10% chance, which proc's frequently with many people are in the radius. Before caltrop's proc's every second regardless since it was considered a melee attack which no longer happen's.

In a 1v3 or less situation the return's are hardly there and you better hope you have decent regen outside of that combo.

It's great when your rolling with a small group though. Solo play is not that good with it.

xylena

revonine

xylena wrote: »

Awesome that surprise attack hit harder than both those ultimates xD

Galalin

Yonkit wrote: »

@xylena Stamblades, no ever had an issue, this patch nor last patch, this patch however, Stam Dks with vigor and rally lol... They don't even need to roll because buffed with igneous rally + vigor = 4k heals a second noncrit, and that's on a build with a pitiful 3k weap dmg and 27k stamina.

The damage stamblades can do is a little high but I've noticed their quite squishy, as emp I just ran radiant magelight and killed them in 6-7s but that's as emp, haven't run into any solo yet but that's because solo play is dead and I'm always grouped

FYI, this is coming from my altar ego.

I aberage about 4200-4500 weapon damage but i don't see 4k ticks a sec even with rally+vigor+igneous since the healing reduction. Maybe im missing something? Or did you mean in PvE land? Cause i do everything i can to avoid that mythical place.

DK SCRUB OUT

Master_Kas

revonine wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Awesome that surprise attack hit harder than both those ultimates xD

That ultimate must been the dot tic, or blocked or migated somehow. Or someone with really bad stats. Meteor hits harder than any of my skills even as stamina build. xD

xylena

i can't see how a cheap spammable move could be intended to be doing 6-7k dmg a shot in pvp, every other spammable direct dps is lucky to be hitting 4-5k, you can see in the image how it compares to concealed wep (on a magblade that i know is a strong player) and that snipe... the stamblade that hit me did not have the death stroke buff or empower, and was not in stealth (spamming it at me as i was chased by a group of reds)... and i'm pretty sure that meteor was the impact damage, probably blocked (which means unblocked it would be... about the same as SA, for the low low cost of 200 ulti), the others were definitely not blocked

maybe the bigger problem is CP allowing me to spec heavily into mitigating magic and elemental dmg, but not against physical dmg, to the point where your basic spam attack is doing more dmg than ultimates

Sharee

xylena wrote: »

i can't see how a cheap spammable move could be intended to be doing 6-7k dmg a shot in pvp, every other spammable direct dps is lucky to be hitting 4-5k, you can see in the image how it compares to concealed wep...

... from a different player. I can build a magicka NB for low damage but high sustain, and i can build a stamina NB with no sustain but maxed out damage. You bet the latter will hit a lot harder (but run out of steam a few seconds into the fight).

There are lots of variables that the picture does not show/take into account.

Ara_Valleria

xylena wrote: »

thanks @Darnathian for the support

In reality the NB is stunned, pulled from stealth, and AOE'd through dodge rolls as quickly as each mechanic is executed, effectively nullifying the modified "infinite-ness" some have pointed out.

The situation, if it does exist, is simply an illustration of a perfectly executed playstlye.

having mostly played NB the past two months, i'm well aware of this... magblade resources deplete quickly when focused with CC, while stamblades can break free, roll 5-6 times, cloak 3-4 times with momentum and vigor bringing them back to full health, go BOO and spam surprise attack or wrecking blow (which will easily and crudely out-dps and out-burst any creative rotations or combos you can think of)... and repeat this rotation pretty much endlessly... NB should be a deep and complex class, not something you faceroll not even a full bar worth of abilities

nerf surprise attack, but BUFF killers blade and power extraction

the only cloak "nerf" should be that activating ANY self healing ability de-cloaks you (right now some abilities do, others like rally and vigor don't)

THIS.

Ara_Valleria

xylena wrote: »

i can't see how a cheap spammable move could be intended to be doing 6-7k dmg a shot in pvp, every other spammable direct dps is lucky to be hitting 4-5k, you can see in the image how it compares to concealed wep (on a magblade that i know is a strong player) and that snipe... the stamblade that hit me did not have the death stroke buff or empower, and was not in stealth (spamming it at me as i was chased by a group of reds)... and i'm pretty sure that meteor was the impact damage, probably blocked (which means unblocked it would be... about the same as SA, for the low low cost of 200 ulti), the others were definitely not blocked

maybe the bigger problem is CP allowing me to spec heavily into mitigating magic and elemental dmg, but not against physical dmg, to the point where your basic spam attack is doing more dmg than ultimates

AND THIS.

NativeJoe

How about someone post a picture of something meaningful? k/d ratio, killing blow stats etc by the addon kill counter. lets get some real***** demographics going. i want to see real evidence a class is OP

Ara_Valleria

NativeJoe wrote: »

How about someone post a picture of something meaningful? k/d ratio, killing blow stats etc by the addon kill counter. lets get some real***** demographics going. i want to see real evidence a class is OP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIlNIVXpIns

Yonkit

Galalin wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

@xylena Stamblades, no ever had an issue, this patch nor last patch, this patch however, Stam Dks with vigor and rally lol... They don't even need to roll because buffed with igneous rally + vigor = 4k heals a second noncrit, and that's on a build with a pitiful 3k weap dmg and 27k stamina.

The damage stamblades can do is a little high but I've noticed their quite squishy, as emp I just ran radiant magelight and killed them in 6-7s but that's as emp, haven't run into any solo yet but that's because solo play is dead and I'm always grouped

FYI, this is coming from my altar ego.

I aberage about 4200-4500 weapon damage but i don't see 4k ticks a sec even with rally+vigor+igneous since the healing reduction. Maybe im missing something? Or did you mean in PvE land? Cause i do everything i can to avoid that mythical place.

DK SCRUB OUT

Rally = 1k, Vigor = 3k Buffed with igneous, AKA 4k a second. L2ChampionPointsScrub

xylena

the players in the death recap are all skilled fighters/builders that i've been going up against for a long time, it was actually a pretty fun/memorable fight

the picture is simply another piece of evidence that one particular cheap spam dps (surprise attack) is so much stronger than other abilities that it reduces optimal stamblade play to a 1-button faceroll

look at all the QQ on here, players really hate cheesy mechanics whether it's OP dps like wrecking blow, or OP defense like shield stacks... i'm just trying to point all the nightblade QQ towards what's actually OP, so we don't end up with a cloak nerf that sends magblade the way of 2.1 magicka dks

Sharee

xylena wrote: »

the picture is simply another piece of evidence that one particular cheap spam dps (surprise attack) is so much stronger than other abilities

You can not take a picture showing damage from two different players and compare it without knowing what builds those players use.

If one of them is a sustain build, and the other a burst build, the latter will have higher damage on such a picture regardless of whether he is stamina-based or magicka-based.

Unless you know what builds the players on the picture use, the picture is worthless as evidence.
(And that's not even taking other variables into account, like what if the concealed weapon did not crit, but the surprise attack did, etc.)

[edit] just look at this picture, it is the same ability used by four different people, yet the 4th is totally out of scale:

LBxFinalDeath

Stamblades with inf cloak and heal? Wat?

You do know cloak goes off magicka right?

More like Sorcs with infinite Streak catching Stamblades 24/7 cuz teleport across the map>having to crouch walk away.

xylena

@Sharee i've mentioned several times that i'm quite familiar with those opponents, having fought both alongside and against them for over a year

Sharee

xylena wrote: »

@Sharee i've mentioned several times that i'm quite familiar with those opponents, having fought both alongside and against them for over a year

That is irrelevant. Even if they are the best players in the world, their damage will still depend on their builds(and a million of other factors)

Just look at the picture i posted. The damage various players do can vary wildly, even using the same ability.

xylena

the amount of data necessary to "prove" my point simply isn't available, so you just gotta trust me (or don't)... i enjoy ESO a lot and would like to see combat balance continue to improve... so if people out there are gonna QQ about nightblades, at least QQ about the root causes of why people are rage-quitting over NBs (spoiler, it's not cloaking magblades)

(1) surprise attack is faceroll dps

(2) stamblades can heal while cloaked and do not have to invest in resource management much at all

Sharee

xylena wrote: »

the amount of data necessary to "prove" my point simply isn't available, so you just gotta trust me (or don't)... i enjoy ESO a lot and would like to see combat balance continue to improve... so if people out there are gonna QQ about nightblades, at least QQ about the root causes of why people are rage-quitting over NBs (spoiler, it's not cloaking magblades)

(1) surprise attack is faceroll dps

(2) stamblades can heal while cloaked and do not have to invest in resource management much at all

Surprise attack is only faceroll DPS if the stamina NB is built for burst while having no sustain, which means he will successfully gank a newbie who doesn't know how to react, but fail miserably against an opponent who survives the alpha strike and starts fighting back.

Surprise attack on a stamina NB who is built for sustain hits for about half as much as the one on your screenshot(i know, i have one)

Stamblades can heal while cloaked, theoretically. They can cloak(which lasts 2.8 seconds), then cast vigor(which takes 5 seconds to run). That means they have to spam cloak multiple times to stay cloaked while healing themselves with vigor. They cannot afford to spam cloak tho. So this is a moot point. Any situation a stam NB can successfully stay cloaked for an extended period of time, a magicka NB can cloak, hightail it around a corner, drop 3x illustrous healing, and be back in fight before the stam NB got his HP back to half.

My magicka nightblade's selfhealing is on a completely different level compared to my stamina nightblade. Swallow soul stacks with illustrous healing stacks with structured entropy stacks with sap essence. And illustrous can be stacked with itself as many times as you want, unlike vigor. Good luck killing that. And i'm not even using healing ward.

OdinForge

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

No offence but i would much rather have dodge roll back. It wasn't that bad. Now that damage reduction is so huge, stamina blade's can't burst you down and roll roll roll and burst someone else down quickly.

OdinForge wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

zatohonour wrote: »

Well,i can do infinite cloaks/dodge rolls if there are a lot of enemies running over my caltrops with siphoning up :P

Not sure if troll, this isn't a thing anymore.

Actually it is, caltrops procs siphoning attacks. Siphoning attacks has no melee requirement unlike Ravager set. The change stopped caltrops counting as a melee attack.

That's unfortunate.

Just to clarify, caltrop's only has a chance to proc the 10% chance, which proc's frequently with many people are in the radius. Before caltrop's proc's every second regardless since it was considered a melee attack which no longer happen's.

In a 1v3 or less situation the return's are hardly there and you better hope you have decent regen outside of that combo.

It's great when your rolling with a small group though. Solo play is not that good with it.

I just tested Siphoning Strikes and Caltrops for myself, you're right that it's not proccing as much as it did before.