Footman's Set still go-to for tanking?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Just wondering what everyone's experiences have been so far with gearing up their tank after IC. From my own experience with my NB tank, it still seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. After building around Footman, your other set choices boil down to your desired playstyle and build type. Has anyone come up with a different "base" tanking set that works well for end-game content?

Here's some related resources
Number crunching and builds stacking healing received
Number crunching mitigation and comparing Unassailable to Footman's set

tpanisiakb16_ESO

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[..] seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. [..]

It's not at all effective. You can read the theorycrafting behind it right here. The TL'DR is diminishing returns puts the 12% mitigation at about 3-4%, so you have to ask yourself if keeping five pieces, one-or-two with crappy traits, and level 13-14 is worth it for a mere 3-4% which could very well be made up with new crafted armor at v16?

As for gearing, since I've done the normal new dungeons a million times and received no Imperium or otherwise, I've stuck with v16 Hist Branch, kept the Footman's jewelry (Unassailable would be more beneficial, IMO if you can track it down), and FOR NOW endurance sword / shield. Eventually I would like to snag two rings of Agility with Stam, and then switch to Neck of Endurance (health) + Shield and a Master Sword. I currently have Bloodspawn on for monster set, but I eventually want to move over to Engine Guardian but I'd had no luck farming for the same.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[..] seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. [..]

It's not at all effective. You can read the theorycrafting behind it right here. The TL'DR is diminishing returns puts the 12% mitigation at about 3-4%, so you have to ask yourself if keeping five pieces, one-or-two with crappy traits, and level 13-14 is worth it for a mere 3-4% which could very well be made up with new crafted armor at v16?

As for gearing, since I've done the normal new dungeons a million times and received no Imperium or otherwise, I've stuck with v16 Hist Branch, kept the Footman's jewelry (Unassailable would be more beneficial, IMO if you can track it down), and FOR NOW endurance sword / shield. Eventually I would like to snag two rings of Agility with Stam, and then switch to Neck of Endurance (health) + Shield and a Master Sword. I currently have Bloodspawn on for monster set, but I eventually want to move over to Engine Guardian but I'd had no luck farming for the same.

Thanks for the reply. The tradeoff between V15/16 armor/spell resist values and Footman's actual low value mitigation bonus was interesting to hear. I made the same post on the ESO subreddit and got some useful replies as well. Judging from the responses, and from some testing I did last night with various gear setups, I think I will invest in all-crafted V16 gear consisting of 5pc Lamae and 2pc Alessia's Bulwark with 2pc Malubeth (resources aren't a problem thanks to Siphoning Attacks so don't need Engine Guardian, and my buffed mitigation stats won't benefit much from Blood Spawn's proc) and 3pc Endurance jewelry (with stamina trait). If I ever get enough pieces of the nice dropped sets, like Leeching or Warden, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Lots of people talk about using Armor Master set now. It is definitely a good set, but as a NB it doesn't offer us much compared to what we already have. We already have a way to proc Major Resolve/Ward (Shadow Barrier passive via any Shadow ability) and Major Evasion (Mirage, which also grants Minor Resolve/Ward), so slotting Immovable/Evasion from the Heavy/Medium armor trees actually reduces our utility. Moreover, slotting Structured Entropy also grants more HP than Armor Master's 5pc bonus as well, so that is always an option. NB tank strengths are resource management (from Siphoning Attacks) and group utility, but weaknesses are the lack of burst healing/damage shields, which is why I've often opted for 2pc Malubeth and sets that auto-proc defensive boosts (eg Whitestrake, old version of Shalidor's Curse, and now new version of Lamae). As an Argonian NB, I also run with about 50% increased healing received when Malubeth is active, so it further makes self-heals much better while also making it easier for the group healer.

Shadesofkin

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[..] seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. [..]

It's not at all effective. You can read the theorycrafting behind it right here. The TL'DR is diminishing returns puts the 12% mitigation at about 3-4%, so you have to ask yourself if keeping five pieces, one-or-two with crappy traits, and level 13-14 is worth it for a mere 3-4% which could very well be made up with new crafted armor at v16?

As for gearing, since I've done the normal new dungeons a million times and received no Imperium or otherwise, I've stuck with v16 Hist Branch, kept the Footman's jewelry (Unassailable would be more beneficial, IMO if you can track it down), and FOR NOW endurance sword / shield. Eventually I would like to snag two rings of Agility with Stam, and then switch to Neck of Endurance (health) + Shield and a Master Sword. I currently have Bloodspawn on for monster set, but I eventually want to move over to Engine Guardian but I'd had no luck farming for the same.

I like Blood Spawn just slightly better as a DK tank because I tend to focus on using Ults often. That being said I agree that moving away from Footmans is the correct choice. Not only does the gear sit at VR14 (even gold that's barely a blue VR16) but some of the new set ups provide more of the oh so precious stamina we need to block and dodge.

Singularapathy

What about as a magicka templar tank? I was presuming to go Footman's along with Hist Bark (and, depending, possibly some Seducers or similar).

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Singularapathy wrote: »

What about as a magicka templar tank? I was presuming to go Footman's along with Hist Bark (and, depending, possibly some Seducers or similar).

Histbark might still be valuable for a Magicka Templar tank as the dodge chance while blocking can offset the stamina cost of blocking (and since you don't have a class dodge ability like NBs and don't want to waste stamina on the Medium Armor ability). But from what I've gathered there are better options than Footman's, mainly the new 3pc Endurance set for the jewelry slots. You could also look at 5pc Armor Master's set and slotting the medium armor ability to proc the set's armor/spell resist buffs and have the dodge buff active instead of using Histbark, but those armor abilities do eat a lot of stamina so if your stam pool isn't that high it might be detrimental to have to recast it every 15 seconds or so. I had high hopes for a DPS-y tank using 5pc Kagnerac's Hope, but it appears there are some issues with it causing you to take more damage than intended while wearing it (exact bug remains elusive, but something fishy is going on). Also, if you need a 2/3 piece filler set, don't overlook Lamae (crafted set) as it's first two bonuses are armor and spell resist. I've never played a Templar tank though, so maybe someone else can chime in on how to build on the strengths of the class or your playstyle.

S1ipperyJim

Personally I still use footmans, at least until I get a full set of Brand of the Imperium or Leeching Plate. Even then I'm not sure they will be better (I tried Black Rose and it is useless) Despite what people say it is still 12% mitigation while blocking, even if it appears to be less so due to when the mitigation applies. Also the difference between VR14 and VR16 gear is minimal, you can still hit the armor and spell resist caps without all VR16 the only loss is a few hundred in stats from the enchants.

bigereard

Depends on your situation.

If you already cap resistance, already have enough resource management for perma blocking (yourself or with your team), have enough selfheal or good healer, and still want to increase your survivability further, then go footman.

---

And yes footman still 12% mitigation and the test above (Paul's test) is also true, if you have cap resistance, this 12% will be 3% overall damage reduction. Because the damage is reduced by 50% first (resistance), and base blocking is 50%.

If you hit by 10.000 damage:
With resistance cap no blocking: 5.000 damage (10.000*50%(armor() = 50% mitigation
With resistance cap and blocking (no passive): 2.500 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*50%(base block)) = 75% mitigation (25% more mitigation)

Now if we add footman base blocking will be 50%*(1+12%) = 56%
With resistance cap and blocking (passive): 2.200 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*56%(base block)) = 78% mitigation (3% more mitigation)

And this is apply to all block bonus.. With armor cap, the actual mitigation of absorb magic is 2%, DK's passive is 2.5%, 1H&S passive is 5%.

---

That's why in test, when he blocking with no gear (0% mitigation) his mitigation is 55% not 60%, because the 10% DK passive translate to 50%*(1+10%) = 55%

And when he block with full gear and footman
23378 = about 36% mitigation
block with sword and shield + footman = 50%*(1+10%+20%+12%) =71% mitigation
(100%-36%)*(100%-71%) = 18.56% or 81.44% mitigation (in test 81.4% mitigation)

Actually the test will be better/clearer if he reach the armor cap.

However if you are nord and/or have other damage reduction mechanism like circle of protection or standard of might, the footman's 12% can go below 3% mitigation....

S1ipperyJim

Thanks for that detailed analysis, really helpful!

I personally still feel much safer in footmans maybe its the placebo effect

ThatNeonZebraAgain

bigereard wrote: »

Depends on your situation.

If you already cap resistance, already have enough resource management for perma blocking (yourself or with your team), have enough selfheal or good healer, and still want to increase your survivability further, then go footman.

---

And yes footman still 12% mitigation and the test above (Paul's test) is also true, if you have cap resistance, this 12% will be 3% overall damage reduction. Because the damage is reduced by 50% first (resistance), and base blocking is 50%.

If you hit by 10.000 damage:
With resistance cap no blocking: 5.000 damage (10.000*50%(armor() = 50% mitigation
With resistance cap and blocking (no passive): 2.500 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*50%(base block)) = 75% mitigation (25% more mitigation)

Now if we add footman base blocking will be 50%*(1+12%) = 56%
With resistance cap and blocking (passive): 2.200 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*56%(base block)) = 78% mitigation (3% more mitigation)

And this is apply to all block bonus.. With armor cap, the actual mitigation of absorb magic is 2%, DK's passive is 2.5%, 1H&S passive is 5%.

---

That's why in test, when he blocking with no gear (0% mitigation) his mitigation is 55% not 60%, because the 10% DK passive translate to 50%*(1+10%) = 55%

And when he block with full gear and footman
23378 = about 36% mitigation
block with sword and shield + footman = 50%*(1+10%+20%+12%) =71% mitigation
(100%-36%)*(100%-71%) = 18.56% or 81.44% mitigation (in test 81.4% mitigation)

Actually the test will be better/clearer if he reach the armor cap.

However if you are nord and/or have other damage reduction mechanism like circle of protection or standard of might, the footman's 12% can go below 3% mitigation....

So the lower your armor/spell resist values, the more useful Footman's 5pc bonus becomes. My own experience tanking with Footman's set post-2.1 gave me a bad impression, which is why I posted this thread. However, I was pairing 5pc Footman's with 5pc V15 purple Kagnerac (aiming for a DPS-y magicka NB tank), and was having a very difficult time staying alive even in old vet dungeons (and I got shredded in the IC dungeons). It seems now there could be some issues with Kagnerac, so I'm temporarily shelving that idea to instead focus on a pure tank build. I really wanted Footman+Kagnerac to work though

Personofsecrets

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[..] seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. [..]

It's not at all effective. You can read the theorycrafting behind it right here. The TL'DR is diminishing returns puts the 12% mitigation at about 3-4%, so you have to ask yourself if keeping five pieces, one-or-two with crappy traits, and level 13-14 is worth it for a mere 3-4% which could very well be made up with new crafted armor at v16?

As for gearing, since I've done the normal new dungeons a million times and received no Imperium or otherwise, I've stuck with v16 Hist Branch, kept the Footman's jewelry (Unassailable would be more beneficial, IMO if you can track it down), and FOR NOW endurance sword / shield. Eventually I would like to snag two rings of Agility with Stam, and then switch to Neck of Endurance (health) + Shield and a Master Sword. I currently have Bloodspawn on for monster set, but I eventually want to move over to Engine Guardian but I'd had no luck farming for the same.

I hadn't considered 2 3-piece set 2 piece bonuses. That is a cool idea.

Pros - the 2 piece bonuses on the new jewelry are worth 1.5 times a normal 2 piece bonus
Con - miss out on a bonus for breaking up a potential 4 piece into two 2 piece.

Overall it seems to balance out, lets a player use the master sword, and the cool looking shields

Thank you for sharing this.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Personofsecrets wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[..] seems like 5pc Footman is best in slot because (1) mitigation bonuses are still very effective and (2) the jewelry allows you to use another 5pc set plus 2pc monster set. [..]

It's not at all effective. You can read the theorycrafting behind it right here. The TL'DR is diminishing returns puts the 12% mitigation at about 3-4%, so you have to ask yourself if keeping five pieces, one-or-two with crappy traits, and level 13-14 is worth it for a mere 3-4% which could very well be made up with new crafted armor at v16?

As for gearing, since I've done the normal new dungeons a million times and received no Imperium or otherwise, I've stuck with v16 Hist Branch, kept the Footman's jewelry (Unassailable would be more beneficial, IMO if you can track it down), and FOR NOW endurance sword / shield. Eventually I would like to snag two rings of Agility with Stam, and then switch to Neck of Endurance (health) + Shield and a Master Sword. I currently have Bloodspawn on for monster set, but I eventually want to move over to Engine Guardian but I'd had no luck farming for the same.

I hadn't considered 2 3-piece set 2 piece bonuses. That is a cool idea.

Pros - the 2 piece bonuses on the new jewelry are worth 1.5 times a normal 2 piece bonus
Con - miss out on a bonus for breaking up a potential 4 piece into two 2 piece.

Overall it seems to balance out, lets a player use the master sword, and the cool looking shields

Thank you for sharing this.

Another benefit would be being able to find/purchase V16 weapon and shield, and thus avoid costly crafting mats. For this reason, I'm now leaning toward 3pc Willpower, 2pc Agility/Endurance, 2pc Malubeth, then 5pc Lamae for my Magicka NB tank.

TotterTates

Footman's Fortune is still viable... and does not suffer diminishing returns... not sure who suggested that.

You can check out my numbers here.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

TotterTates wrote: »

Footman's Fortune is still viable... and does not suffer diminishing returns... not sure who suggested that.

You can check out my numbers here.

From my understanding, perhaps diminishing returns isn't the best term for it. If I am understanding correctly, the closer you are to Physical/Spell Resist cap (now 33.1k), the less overall damage mitigation it provides, so other set choices become more attractive (especially V16 given the enchants). The tests referred to are this one: http://www.fearisfailure.enjin.com/forum/m/32090361/viewthread/22767038-mitigation-testing-for-tanks/post/100722244#p100722244 Your tests show a 3% difference in mitigation while blocking between a build with Footman's and non-Footman's, which is what others have shown as well. So what makes Footman's less attractive (maybe not necessarily less viable) is that its 3% can be made up in other ways (V16 armor pieces, constellations, Mundus, etc), which opens up other possibilities that can also take advantage of highest level enchants.

Personofsecrets

a tank gets less mitigation
as they begin to invest into more
why isnt this diminished returns

Leandor

I may overlook something, but no matter whether it's 12% or 3% additional mitigation, if you get to mitigation hardcap while wearing footman, it is still additional mitigation that you can't get without footman. Using belt and boots, you lose little armor and - since those are small pieces - comparatively little enchantment value.

Using 2pcs endurance, you can still get the high value health bonus (sword and shield). You can use either a 5pcs of the new sets or crafted, or even 2+3 for trash pulls.

S1ipperyJim

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

TotterTates wrote: »

Footman's Fortune is still viable... and does not suffer diminishing returns... not sure who suggested that.

You can check out my numbers here.

From my understanding, perhaps diminishing returns isn't the best term for it. If I am understanding correctly, the closer you are to Physical/Spell Resist cap (now 33.1k), the less overall damage mitigation it provides, so other set choices become more attractive (especially V16 given the enchants). The tests referred to are this one: http://www.fearisfailure.enjin.com/forum/m/32090361/viewthread/22767038-mitigation-testing-for-tanks/post/100722244#p100722244 Your tests show a 3% difference in mitigation while blocking between a build with Footman's and non-Footman's, which is what others have shown as well. So what makes Footman's less attractive (maybe not necessarily less viable) is that its 3% can be made up in other ways (V16 armor pieces, constellations, Mundus, etc), which opens up other possibilities that can also take advantage of highest level enchants.

Interesting, so your testing shows that the old VR14 footmans gear is still better mitigation when blocking than using all VR16 new gear. Although the new gear gives slightly better mitigation when not blocking along with other benefits. Considering I am still able to block almost constantly this gives me food for thought.

TotterTates

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

TotterTates wrote: »

Footman's Fortune is still viable... and does not suffer diminishing returns... not sure who suggested that.

You can check out my numbers here.

From my understanding, perhaps diminishing returns isn't the best term for it. If I am understanding correctly, the closer you are to Physical/Spell Resist cap (now 33.1k), the less overall damage mitigation it provides, so other set choices become more attractive (especially V16 given the enchants). The tests referred to are this one: http://www.fearisfailure.enjin.com/forum/m/32090361/viewthread/22767038-mitigation-testing-for-tanks/post/100722244#p100722244 Your tests show a 3% difference in mitigation while blocking between a build with Footman's and non-Footman's, which is what others have shown as well. So what makes Footman's less attractive (maybe not necessarily less viable) is that its 3% can be made up in other ways (V16 armor pieces, constellations, Mundus, etc), which opens up other possibilities that can also take advantage of highest level enchants.

Ah, nowI understand what you were getting at; however, you will not make up the loss of 3% in block mitigation since resist mitigation (physical/spell resistance) is separate from block mitigation.

(Raw Damage - Resist Mitigation) - Block Mitigation = Damage Taken

You can, theoretically increase your resist mitigation but that will cap at 50%.

That being said... it's personal preference on whether or not that 3% is worth it.

TotterTates

Leandor wrote: »

I may overlook something, but no matter whether it's 12% or 3% additional mitigation, if you get to mitigation hardcap while wearing footman, it is still additional mitigation that you can't get without footman. Using belt and boots, you lose little armor and - since those are small pieces - comparatively little enchantment value.

Using 2pcs endurance, you can still get the high value health bonus (sword and shield). You can use either a 5pcs of the new sets or crafted, or even 2+3 for trash pulls.

This is correct. Using Legendary V16 pieces in place of Legendary V14 pieces (assuming they are not reinforced) nets you about 88 Resist, which equates to ~0.3% mitigation.

caperon

That 3-4% may very well mean 20-25% less damage you take, making your effective health a lot bigger.

TotterTates wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

TotterTates wrote: »

Footman's Fortune is still viable... and does not suffer diminishing returns... not sure who suggested that.

You can check out my numbers here.

From my understanding, perhaps diminishing returns isn't the best term for it. If I am understanding correctly, the closer you are to Physical/Spell Resist cap (now 33.1k), the less overall damage mitigation it provides, so other set choices become more attractive (especially V16 given the enchants). The tests referred to are this one: http://www.fearisfailure.enjin.com/forum/m/32090361/viewthread/22767038-mitigation-testing-for-tanks/post/100722244#p100722244 Your tests show a 3% difference in mitigation while blocking between a build with Footman's and non-Footman's, which is what others have shown as well. So what makes Footman's less attractive (maybe not necessarily less viable) is that its 3% can be made up in other ways (V16 armor pieces, constellations, Mundus, etc), which opens up other possibilities that can also take advantage of highest level enchants.

Ah, nowI understand what you were getting at; however, you will not make up the loss of 3% in block mitigation since resist mitigation (physical/spell resistance) is separate from block mitigation.

(Raw Damage - Resist Mitigation) - Block Mitigation = Damage Taken

You can, theoretically increase your resist mitigation but that will cap at 50%.

That being said... it's personal preference on whether or not that 3% is worth it.

Well, 3% more mitigation means like 20% less damage taken = more efective health.

Said that, i did Ophidian in 1.6 with a a nightblade tank with 25k resistances for the manti and a templar tank using ravaging rings for the shadow of the serpent. So actually caping resistances is not really required.

Personally I tank with 5 vr16 hist, 5 footman, + 2 engine and with my group we are farming vWGT. With volatile armor im at 33k+ magic, 32900 physical resist with 9 points in heavy armor focus CP Eventually I'll get a song of lamae set to replace hist bark (same resistances, more magicka, similar passive for a magicka tank) and right now i'm planing to drop footman and use willpower jewelry and some other 2 pieces set since currently I have no survavility problem even if the healer dies.

bigereard

True!

Actually don't focus on the little number, but how tankier you are with the new set.

In my example, when 75% mitigation become 78% mitigation
You take exactly 12% less damage compared to non footman tank.

But, if we stack more mitigation from let say templar passive, 1H&S passive, absorb magic (without footman):

If you hit by 10.000 damage:
With resistance cap and blocking (full passive): 1.425 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*(1-50%*(1+20%+15%+8%)( block)) = 85.75% mitigation
With resistance cap and blocking (full passive)+Footman: 1.125 damage (10.000*50%(armor)*(1-50%*(1+20%+15%+8%+12%)( block)) = 88.75% mitigation

You'll take about 21% less damage than non-footman tank. If we add Ward of Cyrodiil it will bring you another 26% less damage than only footman tank and so on.
It's not really diminishing return, actually the more block passive you have, the more footman will help you to win in tank contest.
We just never find the content that hard enough to exploit footman's advantage.

In theory this is wonderful set, practically it just not enough challenge to make this set tank's necessity.