Which part of the process of the development goes wrong so that these bugs happened?

PinoZino

Darlgon wrote: »

Thank you both. This is why I asked Will Burton, the programmer they had on ESO Live #24 which languages he programmed in. When I "look under the hood", i look deeper than the OOP, which of course is beyond something us users at home can see. (He uses C# C++ PHP Python and Java, btw. Visual Studio and Sublime are applications he uses. ) Will was, btw, such a refreshing contrast to Rich on this last broadcast.... Oh well, that horse has been beat to death.

The question of, which part of the process where this goes wrong?, the thread title, may not be visible at the OOP level, which is why it takes so long to fix things. It may be a flaw in the underlying software, and not visible at that level.

HOWEVER, from a management view, there should be flowcharts, or logic diagrams. Some kind of documentation... that almost seems to be missing. Comparing the snowballing bugs may reveal a common flaw that needs to get fixed on that level, which ties all these objects together. And, naturally I cant pull Will up to ask him. Sigh.. Oh well, enough of a detour into the base code.

Back to your regularly scheduled hand-wringing and chest-beating.

Trust me, if you develop such a complex piece of software like this MMO then you really have to do your paperwork and you have to analyze a lot.

Everyone - at least most people with a normal intelligence - could build a simple flying airplane. But that's rather impossible without doing your paperwork.

An MMO is much more complicated as a simple aircraft. Without the homework and a tailored methodology the MMO would never take off, but crash and burn.

hrothbern

Xantaria wrote: »

To me it seems like money is spent on the wrong ends and/or there are communication issues between the Q&A team and the rest of Zenimax. Also a lot of the code for mechanics is probably outdated and doesn't work flawlessly with the newer code which creates new bugs etc. Probably they would have to rewrite the whole combat code to fix everything.

from my professional experience I am inclined to the same opinion. Whereby remarked that if the code for mechanics is indeed outdated, the devs could very well pulling of a terrific good job !

Belidos

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

asteldian

Belidos wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

I am not so sure, I think Vanguard was the last mmo I remember with as many issues. But more importantly, it is not so much the bugs that concern me as mmos do always suffer, it is the time it takes to fix them - not only bugs but mechanics that clearly do not work as intended. Again, only Vanguard compares and they were down to a skeleton crew and on life support upon release....even then I feel they managed to fix things quicker.

Something definitely seems off with their behind the scenes stuff. I mean, they cannot even manage to have EU and US chars transferred to PTS at same time...that is odd.

Belidos

asteldian wrote: »

Belidos wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

I am not so sure, I think Vanguard was the last mmo I remember with as many issues. But more importantly, it is not so much the bugs that concern me as mmos do always suffer, it is the time it takes to fix them - not only bugs but mechanics that clearly do not work as intended. Again, only Vanguard compares and they were down to a skeleton crew and on life support upon release....even then I feel they managed to fix things quicker.

Something definitely seems off with their behind the scenes stuff. I mean, they cannot even manage to have EU and US chars transferred to PTS at same time...that is odd.

Both Swordsman and Archage have huge issues at the moment, so did Wildstar until recently, at least on par with this game, and I've seen it as an ongoing trend in almost every mmo I've played since 97.

The US/EU issue on PTS is exactly the same as over on Lord of the Rings Online, they've never figured out how to do that either, and I've seen very few games with separate EU/US servers that pen their test servers up to both regions at the same time, many of them alternate to give both time.

sadownik

PinoZino wrote: »

It's like a complete noob who's suggesting the neurologist to tackle the Amygdala first during some brain surgery.

But hey, some inmates want to run the asylum.

Comparing neurologist to a dev - nice.

sadownik

Belidos wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

Oh really? Please do tell which one of newley released AAA titles had patched with the wrong patch that was shutting down user computers. Tell me which one of those AAA productions allow exploits like magelight, double mundus and many others run rampart for months. And not "other games are worse" i want titles.

PinoZino

sadownik wrote: »

PinoZino wrote: »

It's like a complete noob who's suggesting the neurologist to tackle the Amygdala first during some brain surgery.

But hey, some inmates want to run the asylum.

Comparing neurologist to a dev - nice.

Or a haircutter. Do you cut your own hair? No, you don't. Why? Because you're not qualified and would look silly.
However, you like to try improving games by yourself without the qualifications. It looks equal silly.

I know very well that neurology is mostly a harder task as developing games, but people seem to think that software development is easy. It's not.

sadownik

PinoZino wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

PinoZino wrote: »

It's like a complete noob who's suggesting the neurologist to tackle the Amygdala first during some brain surgery.

But hey, some inmates want to run the asylum.

Comparing neurologist to a dev - nice.

Or a haircutter. Do you cut your own hair? No, you don't. Why? Because you're not qualified and would look silly.
However, you like to try improving games by yourself without the qualifications. It looks equal silly.

I know very well that neurology is mostly a harder task as developing games, but people seem to think that software development is easy. It's not.

When a hair cutter finishes his/her job am i not allowed to judge it? Should i get down on my knees and praise the terrible haircut? Am i not allowed to wish that the professional hear my wishes?

FireCowCommando

They happen when you push development too quickly on an unstable platform.

And before i am told i am not qualified to have such an opinion. ZoS development directors have themselves voiced their frustration with the base code.

Belidos

sadownik wrote: »

Belidos wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

Oh really? Please do tell which one of newley released AAA titles had patched with the wrong patch that was shutting down user computers. Tell me which one of those AAA productions allow exploits like magelight, double mundus and many others run rampart for months. And not "other games are worse" i want titles.

Print off a list of all the mmo's and throw a dart in it, there you go.

Besides I never said other games are worse, your reading comprehension and understanding is terrible. I said there were no more issues in this game than there are in many other games. I didn't say there weren't issues, just that we're not the only ones.

PinoZino

sadownik wrote: »

PinoZino wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

PinoZino wrote: »

It's like a complete noob who's suggesting the neurologist to tackle the Amygdala first during some brain surgery.

But hey, some inmates want to run the asylum.

Comparing neurologist to a dev - nice.

Or a haircutter. Do you cut your own hair? No, you don't. Why? Because you're not qualified and would look silly.
However, you like to try improving games by yourself without the qualifications. It looks equal silly.

I know very well that neurology is mostly a harder task as developing games, but people seem to think that software development is easy. It's not.

When a hair cutter finishes his/her job am i not allowed to judge it? Should i get down on my knees and praise the terrible haircut? Am i not allowed to wish that the professional hear my wishes?

You can judge it, but you can't tell him how he should cut.

And what are many people doing here? Telling how the dev people should cut.

willymchilybily

FireCowCommando wrote: »

They happen when you push development too quickly on an unstable platform.

And before i am told i am not qualified to have such an opinion. ZoS development directors have themselves voiced their frustration with the base code.

Agree. And not just that.

All the changing of staff and going to B2P a rework on the whole ethos of the development process, probably some restructuring of dev teams for the need to make money from crown and drop off in subs an unknown factor, with console launch and a need to understand interactions with sony/microsoft on new platforms. Then a DLC on top that combine and a time schedule that is demanding. Dev teams stretched thin, and testing is now across 3 platforms, but time schedules likely unchanged

I guess it was release with possible bugs (most on the compendium the devs were unaware of or cant recreate) or delay. not to mention something that cant be tested until live very easily. eg. loading screens. traffic flow is not representative and test platforms are not the live mega servers

kevlarto_ESO

Greed, lets pump out the game while the hype is high then patch it later, seems to be the industry standard today, no one seems interested in making a quality product out the gate.

asteldian

Belidos wrote: »

asteldian wrote: »

Belidos wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

but OP was asking why ESO stands out so much in terms of quiality controll..

It only stands out because this is the game the OP is focusing on, it's no worse, nor is I any better than other games, it's just closer to him/her than the others are, when you are too close to the subject you loseall objectivity.

I am not so sure, I think Vanguard was the last mmo I remember with as many issues. But more importantly, it is not so much the bugs that concern me as mmos do always suffer, it is the time it takes to fix them - not only bugs but mechanics that clearly do not work as intended. Again, only Vanguard compares and they were down to a skeleton crew and on life support upon release....even then I feel they managed to fix things quicker.

Something definitely seems off with their behind the scenes stuff. I mean, they cannot even manage to have EU and US chars transferred to PTS at same time...that is odd.

Both Swordsman and Archage have huge issues at the moment, so did Wildstar until recently, at least on par with this game, and I've seen it as an ongoing trend in almost every mmo I've played since 97.

The US/EU issue on PTS is exactly the same as over on Lord of the Rings Online, they've never figured out how to do that either, and I've seen very few games with separate EU/US servers that pen their test servers up to both regions at the same time, many of them alternate to give both time.

I admitedly was not including f2p mmos - you get what you pay for. Admittedly with ESO downgrading to B2P they are more comparable, but the issue is that ESO suffered as badly when a sub game and even worse some of those bugs still exist which is the main issue. I don't know enough about Wildstar to know if they still have the same bugs from release.
The worst part is that ESO even had bugs from release that were around for console launch which is really shoddy for a second chance.

LOTRO going f2p would have stopped any interest in sorting out the PTS issue, andI give them the benefit of the doubt for them being an old game. Whereas Rift before going f2p implemented the transfer perfectly, even allowing you yourself to copy a live char to put onto PTS. I am curious why others cannot mimic that.

Belidos

asteldian wrote: »

LOTRO going f2p would have stopped any interest in sorting out the PTS issue, andI give them the benefit of the doubt for them being an old game. Whereas Rift before going f2p implemented the transfer perfectly, even allowing you yourself to copy a live char to put onto PTS. I am curious why others cannot mimic that.

Rift doesn't allow US and EU to play on their PTS at the same time, they have it attached to multiple databases and they swap them in and out regularly so the different regions each get a chance to try it out, if I remember right.

Darlgon

PinoZino wrote: »

[Without the homework and a tailored methodology the MMO would never take off, but crash and burn.

THAT is a VERY interesting observation, in view of some of the recent comments and actions.