Want to play stam? Here's your 2H...

Jitterbug

Let me start out by saying that I do not wish for 2H to be nerfed in any way, it's in a good place in my opinion.

I just think it's boring, bordering on sad, that the utilities for the other stamina weapons are so low in comparison.
The best heal, the strongest gap closer, the highest dps ability (with built in CC), and the heaviest execute all belong to 2H.
It also opens by far the most synergies with class abilities.
Nothing wrong with that in and of it self, but it does not exactly help build diversity.

The bow gets the strongest DoT and the heal debuff, and dual wield gets that annoying Whirlwind.

I have to deliberately gimp myself if I wish to roll bow/dw for example, and it's only borderline possible if I have Vigor unlocked.

I know I might be painting the picture a little gloomy, but it's been annoying me for some time, and I would like to open a discussion as to how we (they) can make the other stamina weapon choices have more utility, and how it's possible to make a stam build without 2H that's as effective as if you had 2H.

Right?

SHADOW2KK

I hear ya, but some of us have not played with 2H for ages, last time I personally did was a while ago in Thorn.

Still using DW/Bow and kicking ass.

A lot of stamina builds do, admittedly just use 2H though so I do agree with ya on a lot of points raised.

I stopped using 2H as I got bored, and wanted to use my then vr14 morag tong daggers, and was quite attached to them.

I did on a purely evil sense, enjoy using 2H Ravaging greatsword with weighted and spamming WBs like a machine gun though hehe.

Jeckll

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I did on a purely evil sense, enjoy using 2H Ravaging greatsword with weighted and spamming WBs like a machine gun though hehe.

Weightend doesnt increase the speed of WBlows.

@Jitterbug - it's only a PvP issue, in PvE, DW/Bow is a superb choice. You dont have to "gimp" yourself in PvP as well for not using 2h. You can use Potions for Major Brutality and with Vigor and Flying Blade, you kind of have the same tools. Not as good as Rally, but the tools are available. You "just" have to adept your playstyle.

This topic is beaten to death several times now and ZOS already addressed it a bit with:
- Vigor more accessable
- Flying Blade getting Major Brutality
- Rally is way more expensive

You see they are aware and testing things to improve the situation. While it's not optimal now, it's really playable. Think about what you lose for going 2h instead of DW as well.
- lose the best aoe
- 1 setbonus less
- less weapon damage in general

SHADOW2KK

Jeckll wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I did on a purely evil sense, enjoy using 2H Ravaging greatsword with weighted and spamming WBs like a machine gun though hehe.

Weightend doesnt increase the speed of WBlows.

@Jitterbug - it's only a PvP issue, in PvE, DW/Bow is a superb choice. You dont have to "gimp" yourself in PvP as well for not using 2h. You can use Potions for Major Brutality and with Vigor and Flying Blade, you kind of have the same tools. Not as good as Rally, but the tools are available. You "just" have to adept your playstyle.

This topic is beaten to death several times now and ZOS already addressed it a bit with:
- Vigor more accessable
- Flying Blade getting Major Brutality
- Rally is way more expensive

You see they are aware and testing things to improve the situation. While it's not optimal now, it's really playable. Think about what you lose for going 2h instead of DW as well.
- lose the best aoe
- 1 setbonus less
- less weapon damage in general

Actually weighted does increase speed, I compared 2 legendary 2H blades, the typical Ravaging improved up and a nirn one and the speed of WB`s did increase for me

Knootewoot

Rally's WD buff should only work for 2-handed abilities. I always feel I need to have 2-handed just for rally whether I use bow or DW. Currently I dropped it since I use potions for the xtra 20% WD. But still, Wrecking blow is very strong and they should fix animation cancelling. Also people using it should have a debuff called "broken wrist" if they use it more then 1 time in less then 3 secs. Damage -80% and no cc/knockback

Ruben

Knootewoot wrote: »

But still, Wrecking blow is very strong and they should fix animation cancelling. Also people using it should have a debuff called "broken wrist" if they use it more then 1 time in less then 3 secs. Damage -80% and no cc/knockback

Were you killed by a big group of people all spamming wrecking blows over and over again?
I vote for a debuff on Steel Tornado spam.

Alucardo

S+B has some really, really cool abilities and passives. In fact, both of my bars are S+B and I'm seriously happy with that skill line. I just wish it had Rally.. or I could get a master sword for my level

Jitterbug

Alucardo wrote: »

S+B has some really, really cool abilities and passives. In fact, both of my bars are S+B and I'm seriously happy with that skill line. I just wish it had Rally.. or I could get a master sword for my level

That's the whole point. You have to make an effort NOT to use a 2H and it really becomes the Cookie Cutter of Hunding's Rage

Alucardo

Jitterbug wrote: »

That's the whole point. You have to make an effort NOT to use a 2H and it really becomes the Cookie Cutter of Hunding's Rage

Oh yeah, I'm not saying I disagree with you. I hate the fact I have to level 2h if I want a heal on my stam build, because that's literally all I'd use it for. So this time around I didn't even bother - just molded my build more around survivability so I didn't need to rely on those heals as often. Eventually when I rank up I'll just get Vigor, but until then I literally have nothing but Dragon Blood (which blows now).

Jitterbug

And let me just repeat:

I don't want 2H nerfed or changed. 2H is awesome.
I want more creative utilities in namely dw and bow. Mostly dw... twin slashes, blade cloak, c'mon.

It might have been beaten to death as someone said, but it's not dead enough. Not yet.

Jitterbug

Alucardo wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

That's the whole point. You have to make an effort NOT to use a 2H and it really becomes the Cookie Cutter of Hunding's Rage

Oh yeah, I'm not saying I disagree with you. I hate the fact I have to level 2h if I want a heal on my stam build, because that's literally all I'd use it for. So this time around I didn't even bother - just molded my build more around survivability so I didn't need to rely on those heals as often. Eventually when I rank up I'll just get Vigor, but until then I literally have nothing but Dragon Blood (which blows now).

No, I know.
As an experiment I ran with Rally, Crit Surge, Dark Deal and Vigor on my stam sorc and Rally was responsible for 68% of my total healing during a couple of hours in IC. Makes it really hard NOT to pick 2H.

briandivisionb16_ESO

2 ideas to improve some of the more 'useless' or unused skills in weaponary:

Bow knockback skill should always work, just have a cooldown.
Dual Wield 'sparks' should actually have a very short flashbang effect on opponent (also cooldown).

Also how about the odd magica morph perhaps? Or would that be too OP?

willymchilybily

Knootewoot wrote: »

Rally's WD buff should only work for 2-handed abilities. I always feel I need to have 2-handed just for rally whether I use bow or DW. Currently I dropped it since I use potions for the xtra 20% WD. But still, Wrecking blow is very strong and they should fix animation cancelling. Also people using it should have a debuff called "broken wrist" if they use it more then 1 time in less then 3 secs. Damage -80% and no cc/knockback

animation cancel wrecking blow still confuses me, sounds misleading, if you cancel the animation you cancel the ability? maybe right at the end of the animation you can shave a few milliseconds off and not cancel the attack?

anyway i see people say this enough to believe maybe I'm naive and not them. Someone able to post a video so i can understand what a animation cancelled wrecking blow looks like. aka pics or it didn't happen.

on topic:
i think bow is fine where it is, and 2H is very fine where it is. DW flying blade damage buff is a step in the right direction but i think using DW in PVP succesfully over 2H is very class specific at the moment. Eg gap closer/execute/CC lacking (unless steel tornado as execute). A stamina NB already has these things, and a damage spam move so may be viable to go for the bonuses DW give over 2H, But on other classes, like a DK without gap closer (charge based) or execute, or even a stamina damage spam move means 2H is a required option, (imo) for other stamina builds.

i agree with op though its not that 2H is OP its that some classes or other weapon skill lines are lacking what allows them to work well together. Though i dont mind using a 2H you can always swap out the other weapon bar if you are bored

Jitterbug

willymchilybily wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Rally's WD buff should only work for 2-handed abilities. I always feel I need to have 2-handed just for rally whether I use bow or DW. Currently I dropped it since I use potions for the xtra 20% WD. But still, Wrecking blow is very strong and they should fix animation cancelling. Also people using it should have a debuff called "broken wrist" if they use it more then 1 time in less then 3 secs. Damage -80% and no cc/knockback

animation cancel wrecking blow still confuses me, sounds misleading, if you cancel the animation you cancel the ability? maybe right at the end of the animation you can shave a few milliseconds off and not cancel the attack?

anyway i see people say this enough to believe maybe I'm naive and not them. Someone able to post a video so i can understand what a animation cancelled wrecking blow looks like. aka pics or it didn't happen.

on topic:
i think bow is fine where it is, and 2H is very fine where it is. DW flying blade damage buff is a step in the right direction but i think using DW in PVP succesfully over 2H is very class specific at the moment. Eg gap closer/execute/CC lacking (unless steel tornado as execute). A stamina NB already has these things, and a damage spam move so may be viable to go for the bonuses DW give over 2H, But on other classes, like a DK without gap closer (charge based) or execute, or even a stamina damage spam move means 2H is a required option, (imo) for other stamina builds.

i agree with op though its not that 2H is OP its that some classes or other weapon skill lines are lacking what allows them to work well together. Though i dont mind using a 2H you can always swap out the other weapon bar if you are bored

It's not that I mind it so much either, but style, looks and rp are kind of important to me as a player. I can't just slot the most effective whatevers and be happy, and there is nothing (NOTHING) about a gigantic ravaging sword that says assassin on my tiny female bosmer.

Yuke

Jitterbug wrote: »

And let me just repeat:

I don't want 2H nerfed or changed. 2H is awesome.
I want more creative utilities in namely dw and bow. Mostly dw... twin slashes, blade cloak, c'mon.

It might have been beaten to death as someone said, but it's not dead enough. Not yet.

Blade Cloak is one of the strongest abilities in the game and if you cant see this nobody can help you anymore. (sorry for the drastic words)

Combine it with low slash and you have 35% damage mitigation against almost all fotm abilities there are (DB, Bats, Steeltornado, Leap, Mag deto, Curse, .....) + the in fight speed let you "dance" around your enemy while he is snared.

Furthermore the 3sec dot gives you some additional damage / or drains stamina if your enemy is blocking

Jitterbug

Yuke wrote: »

[ if you cant see this nobody can help you anymore

okay, sucks to be me then... thanks for trying anyway though...

Yuke

I apologised and also explained why your blade cloak statement is wrong. Dont be so sensitive man...

Jitterbug

Yuke wrote: »

I apologised and also explained why your blade cloak statement is wrong. Dont be so sensitive man...

I know, I just don't agree that it's "one of the strongest abilities in the game". I'm glad it's working for you, I'm thoroughly dissapointed in it.
Also, it's not that I'm particularly sensitive I just get sick of the tone on forums. It's amazing to me how harshly people let themselves talk to other people. Trying to have mature discussions at getting "hopeless noob beyond repair" seems excessive. I'm sure you agree, as you seem like a sensible person.

Yuke

I dont know what your playstyle is to be honest. I can agree that bladecloak is useless on gankbuilds i guess (and even here im not sure about it, i guess its still strong on non-nb stamina gankbuilds while facing multiple enemies), but the moment you have to 'out-sustain' your enemy, it becomes ridiculously strong.

I cant say much about Twin-Slashes being weak, did anyone test the heal on a high dmg build?

Faulgor

Meanwhile, I'm leaning on my destro stick, waiting for an execute ... or worthwhile wall of elements.
It's such a joke that DW swords are the best magicka weapons. I wish Wrobel could see this some day, too.

Regarding stamina, I think bow and 1h+s are still lacking offensive self buffs. Bow only has attacks, and the benefit of 1h+s over 2h and DW should be more defense, yet 2h and DW are the two weapon skill lines that got heals. So I see no reason anymore to keep 1h+s behind in offense.
Doesn't have to be major brutality for those two. Increased critical damage would be nice for bows, and 1h+s could get the minor versions of brutality and savagery - or a passive that grants empower after bashing with your shield.

Also, please make axes useful.

Jitterbug

Yuke wrote: »

Blade Cloak becomes ridiculously strong.

I'll take your word for that, and I will experiment some more with it in survivalist builds.

Yuke wrote: »

I cant say much about Twin-Slashes being weak, did anyone test the heal on a high dmg build?

I have, and the heal is miniscule. The DoT is good though.

Alucardo

Faulgor wrote: »

Meanwhile, I'm leaning on my destro stick, waiting for an execute

Sometimes you can find.. creative ways for executes. For example, S+B doesn't really have one, yet I use it on both bars. So when my target is low health I buff molten armaments and perform a heavy attack. I fell off my chair when I hit one for 8k (with s+b) 2 days ago. I also prep them with a puncture which enhances my damage even more.

OGLezard

Alucardo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Meanwhile, I'm leaning on my destro stick, waiting for an execute

Sometimes you can find.. creative ways for executes. For example, S+B doesn't really have one, yet I use it on both bars. So when my target is low health I buff molten armaments and perform a heavy attack. I fell off my chair when I hit one for 8k (with s+b) 2 days ago. I also prep them with a puncture which enhances my damage even more.

there is no creative way to get an execute from the horrible destro skills lolololololol UNLESS you convince someone to stand in your woe and be tickled to death........... if you can do that then it would be the funniest execute in the game!

Jar_Ek

@Yuke Combine with low slash... that will only work with one morph, forces 1h and shield and then only works if you can tag the opponents (certainly not true of all aoe).

What blade cloak does is fairly well known: 20% aoe damage reduction, and a poor melee DoT (proc rate of 1 in 3s). Morphs for a speed buff or clunky single target damage one off.

So, does it have some use - sure. Will it keep you alive through an aoe zerg bomb... probably not for very long. Does it compare favourably with the two handed utility skill - not really.

@willymchilybily Animation cancelling with wrecking blow is essentially hiding a heavy attack underneath your wrecking blow. So activate wrecking blow and then hold down a heavy attack... both will execute.

Forestd16b14_ESO

The only thing that needs nerf is wrecking blow there are other gap closer such as shield charge in the SnS tree it's the same as crit charge.

Yuke

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yuke Combine with low slash... that will only work with one morph, forces 1h and shield and then only works if you can tag the opponents (certainly not true of all aoe).

What blade cloak does is fairly well known: 20% aoe damage reduction, and a poor melee DoT (proc rate of 1 in 3s). Morphs for a speed buff or clunky single target damage one off.

So, does it have some use - sure. Will it keep you alive through an aoe zerg bomb... probably not for very long. Does it compare favourably with the two handed utility skill - not really.

@willymchilybily Animation cancelling with wrecking blow is essentially hiding a heavy attack underneath your wrecking blow. So activate wrecking blow and then hold down a heavy attack... both will execute.

I dont understand why people think that it is only a anti zergbomb skill to be honest. Almost every good solo/small scale player uses at least one skill that is affected by the damage reduction.

Show me a sorc without curse/detonation/bats/dawnbreaker?

Show me a dk without talons, inhale, dawnbreaker, fiery breath, bats, detonation, leap?

Show me one templar without blazing, jabs, detonation, dawnbreaker, spears?

Only against stamblades it is almost useless.

Scyantific

Just add a cooldown to the Empower bonus, 5 seconds so it doesn't constantly proc one after another.

Elijah_Crow

The one thing about the two handed line which makes it so appealing to me is Rally. It's not the Major Brutality Buff or the heal over time, I can get this from Hidden Blade and Vigor, it's the duration of the buff.

I don't want to play Elder Buffs Online and whoever is designing their buff system needs to take a step back and consider the fun factor. Playing a Nightblade DPS has become tedious as you have so many effects you have to continue to apply over any given 10 to 15 seconds that it's just not fun. Vigor: 5 seconds, Hidden Blade 10 Seconds, Grim Focus roughly 20 seconds, evil hunter about 15 seconds, siponing strikes 15 seconds, etc.

Rally gives me a heal and a buff and I can go and fight and not worry about re-applying for like 30 seconds. This means I can focus on the fight and not timers and can have fun. If a buff isn't going to last at least 20 seconds, take it out of the game. You are ruining the experience.

Kammakazi

1. Wrecking Blow
2. Wrecking Blo
3. Wrecking Bl
4. Wrecking B
5. Wrecking
6. Wreckin
7. Wrecki
8. Wreck
9. Wrec
10. Wre
11. Wr
12. W
13. Wr
14. Wre
15. Wrec
16. Wreck
17. Wrecki
18. Wreckin
19. Wrecking
20. Wrecking B
21. Wrecking Bl
22. Wrecking Blo
23. Wrecking Blow

Jar_Ek

BTW does anyone use Power Bash from s+s?

Jitterbug

Kammakazi wrote: »

1. Wrecking Blow
   

all joking aside I really dislike using that skill - I hate the cast time, and if I'm using a sword the animation makes no sense. I honestly don't think anyone actually likes it, they just use it any way because you'd be stupid not to.

I prefer being stupid.