A counter to claims of nightblade counters

DarthSeverus394

Alrighty spoiled nightblades who currently run this game. Youre desperately saying its a l2p issue and there are counters to your cloak. Fair enough. Lets cover them.
Caltrops-expensive stam skill that kills resources, not available to inexperienced pvpers
Magelight-buggy at best, works sometimes, aoe based of your own position. Dodge roll, recloak, repeat.
Flare-somewhat viable ill give you that, but not available to anyone who doesnt pvp a lot. Better be a good guesser as to what direction they went I might add.
These are the ones available to all classes. Blazing spear? By the time the animation ends its not longer instant cast but viable if youre a good guesser at where they went. Lightening form, roll dodge, cloak, stun, repaeat. There are others but the point being yes there are counters. But HOW is it fair to take away almost an entire bar of ours just to be prepared for nbs? Come on now lets be real. To be totally prepared. Aoe to discover, unstoppable spam so we have buff and dont get snared, heal because by the time the nb gap closes your health is at half if theyre good. Finally a stun/snare to hit you with to keep ourselves remotely in the fight. 4 skills. Assuming you can do it with those and not need the safety of magelight passives. Now nbs how do you prepare to be ganked? Oh wait...infinite cloak. How handy. So all other classes require a minimum of 4 skills to be 100% ready to counter you. And you get to basically do what you want thanks to one skill. Go anywhere. Quest anywhere. Survive, escape, gank, etc. Do us all a favor and stop being childish saying theres counters and we just suck. Give me a break. Its online pvp in a video game. Any skill that allows infinite invisibility is op and abusing the game. Cloak NEEDS to have consequences. I.e. stam and magic regen taken away so you all actually have to use strategy. As of now its just dam every now and then I gotta recast it a few times. Sometimes a group of 5 may get you. Must be rough. When bolt and dodge roll were abused, they were taken care of very nicely. Both still viable escapes but not to the point of op. Strategy is now needed. Get ready for it kiddos because its coming. You got lucky with IC. Zos built you nbs what is essentially a playground. Have fun. Because people will soon be fed up with it and youll feel the nerf hammer like every other class. Infinite invisibility along with stamblades being the best pvp setup in the game currently means its coming soon. You cannot be allowed to have the freedom on both bars except one skill while others have to waste a bar just to defend against one class out of 4. You may have to use...oh no..le gasp...STRATEGY. Objects to hide behind when out of resources, resource management, etc. I know its a lot to think about but try to keep in mind that im right, and youre wrong. It will help. In the meantime take the phrase "omg there are counters l2p" out of your vocabulary. There were counters to 30k prox dets back in the day technically, does that mean we get to have them back? Nope. See ya when the game evens up and youre all whining on here just like me

Auricle

TL;DR - I used to kick ass with a DK, but soon NBs shall feel the pain I feel..?

lolo_01b16_ESO

Maybe you should play a nb before claiming they are op.
Sure, I can escape many fights if I prepare well, but that requires:
- Efficient purge
- Shuffle or retreating manuver
- Shadow image
- Cloak
- high recoveries to use those skills

If you just spam cloak I can probably kill you with my lvl 12 sorc without any problems.

eNumbra

Tl;dr, even Zenimax's representative said that there are a ton of counters to cloak and they're going to take that into consideration if and when they decide to nerf Cloak.

DarthSeverus394

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should play a nb before claiming they are op.
Sure, I can escape many fights if I prepare well, but that requires:
- Efficient purge
- Shuffle or retreating manuver
- Shadow image
- Cloak
- high recoveries to use those skills

If you just spam cloak I can probably kill you with my lvl 12 sorc without any problems.

Okay you get one bar to kill with and one to escape. You are self sufficient. Dks and templars get one bar to kill and one bar to counter nbs...wheres our escape? Our sorc counter? Not enough bars it would seem.

Farorin

This was hard to read due to the lack of structure, so I just skimmed it.

That being said.

Cloak is easy to counter, y'all can try argue it as much as you want, but the fact is, it is easy to counter, literally everytime I have fought a NB in IC, the only times they do well is if I forgot to utilize a counter. If I use just ONE single counter, they are boned.

Slow Roastin

It's nearly impossible to run one character than can counter every class perfectly on one build. That being said...you can adapt and find which counters are important to you.

I am a stamina templar and can handle each class pretty effectively. I am MUCH more effective in a group of two but love me my 1v1s.

I counter NBs with Steel Tornado and Stampede (2h gap closer morph that slows OH SO WELL!! 60% for 8sec) it's fairly cheap and puts a NB on the defensive and on a magicka burn.

I counter sorcs with shieldbreaker.

I counter CC with purifying ritual.

I counter ganks and mitigate with Barrier, Channeled focus, Purifying ritual, and rally/vigor heals.

I DPS with WB or jabs, whatever is working for me that night!

DarthSeverus394

A good player will beat a bad or mediocre nightblade. A good dk or tenplat or sorc is hard to kill. A good nightblade, is near impossible. They may not kill you either, but you wont kill them.

Darlgon

Let me try to break you down:

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Alrighty spoiled nightblades who currently run this game. You're desperately saying its a l2p issue and there are counters to your cloak. Fair enough.

Sigh.. yeah.. tired of hearing it too.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Lets cover them.
Caltrops-expensive stam skill that kills resources, not available to inexperienced pvpers

But, Ohhh.. so fun with Evil Hunter.. oh.. wait.. that was fixed, right?

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Magelight-buggy at best, works sometimes, aoe based of your own position. Dodge roll, recloak, repeat.

Sigh.. does that ever really work? I gave up on it. I always felt like I was running around with a blue glowing ball that said, "Nightblades attack me first".

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Flare-somewhat viable ill give you that, but not available to anyone who doesnt pvp a lot. Better be a good guesser as to what direction they went I might add.
These are the ones available to all classes.

Hm.. never tried Flare.. always seemed kinda useless unless you just like playing minesweeper.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Blazing spear? By the time the animation ends its not longer instant cast but viable if youre a good guesser at where they went.

Templars covered

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Lightening form, roll dodge, cloak, stun, repeat.

Sorcs covered.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

There are others but the point being yes there are counters.

Looking for the ones for DK.. None of them seem to work after the changes to cloak and damage.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

But HOW is it fair to take away almost an entire bar of ours just to be prepared for nbs? Come on now lets be real. To be totally prepared:
Aoe to discove
Unstoppable spam so we have buff and dont get snared
Heal because by the time the nb gap closes your health is at half if theyre good.
Finally a stun/snare to hit you with to keep ourselves remotely in the fight.
4 skills.

At least.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Assuming you can do it with those and not need the safety of magelight passives.

That too.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Now nbs how do you prepare to be ganked? Oh wait...infinite cloak. How handy. So all other classes require a minimum of 4 skills to be 100% ready to counter you.

Sigh.. hate to say it, but.. I have yet to see a REAL infinite cloak, even on an Emp Magicka NB,

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

And you get to basically do what you want thanks to one skill. Go anywhere. Quest anywhere. Survive, escape, gank, etc.

Um.. only if specced, clothed, built, with the right CP and passives

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Do us all a favor and stop being childish saying theres counters and we just suck. Give me a break. Its online pvp in a video game.

I would put the childishness on both sides.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

Any skill that allows infinite invisibility is op and abusing the game. Cloak NEEDS to have consequences. I.e. stam and magic regen taken away so you all actually have to use strategy.

Amen.. but.. see.. that will quickly spread to affect all classes when the "crotch". (Think how ZoS handled block-casting.)

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

As of now its just dam every now and then I gotta recast it a few times. Sometimes a group of 5 may get you. Must be rough.

I wish a group of five could get a cloaked NB. And, when they run in packs and use strat.. they are very effective.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

When bolt and dodge roll were abused, they were taken care of very nicely. Both still viable escapes but not to the point of op. Strategy is now needed. Get ready for it kiddos because its coming.

Interesting comparisons. Yeah, those were OP, just like cloak is now.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

You got lucky with IC. Zos built you nbs what is essentially a playground. Have fun. Because people will soon be fed up with it and youll feel the nerf hammer like every other class. Infinite invisibility along with stamblades being the best pvp setup in the game currently means its coming soon. You cannot be allowed to have the freedom on both bars except one skill while others have to waste a bar just to defend against one class out of 4.

And thus ESO:NBU was born...

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

You may have to use...oh no..le gasp...STRATEGY. Objects to hide behind when out of resources, resource management, etc.

A lot of NBs do use strat.. which is why when their cloak got buffed, they became SOO OP.

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

I know its a lot to think about but try to keep in mind that im right, and youre wrong. It will help.

Errr... I know you are a Darth, but arent you taking THAT power trip too far?

DarthSeverus394 wrote: »

In the meantime take the phrase "omg there are counters l2p" out of your vocabulary. There were counters to 30k prox dets back in the day technically, does that mean we get to have them back? Nope. See ya when the game evens up and youre all whining on here just like me

Yeah.. this seriously ISNT a L2P issue, but NBs seem to attract the leet players.

You make some valid points, but blaming the players is..not right... Ultimately this is a ZoS has no idea how to balance classes issue. Sadly.

Cathexis

Farorin wrote: »

This was hard to read due to the lack of structure, so I just skimmed it.

That being said.

Cloak is easy to counter, y'all can try argue it as much as you want, but the fact is, it is easy to counter, literally everytime I have fought a NB in IC, the only times they do well is if I forgot to utilize a counter. If I use just ONE single counter, they are boned.

False. On three separate occasions now I have gone 5v1 with a nightblade who was able to successfully avoid damage for 4+ minutes. Our group used caltrops spam, thundering presence, streak, steel tornado, and potions.

Cloak needs to be fixed.

Slow Roastin

It was just confirmed in the huge QQ thread that ZOS is looking into Cloak.

Darlgon

Slow Roastin wrote: »

It was just confirmed in the huge QQ thread that ZOS is looking into Cloak.

This thread was actually started after that statement appeared on the dev tracker.

DarthSeverus394

Darlgon, no im not actually the type of person who says im right youre wrong. Im on here whining I gotta get a rise out of some nightblades out there who dont wanna lose the good thing they have going. *gets edited by dev for trolling and provoking* Meh. Not again. Already lost my money as a subscriber feel free to kick me off forums

Dancheek

Most nbs can only cloak 2 or 3 times unless they're chugging magicka pots or they're magicka nbs... even then they can be spotted even with cloak up... not sure if this bug is on pc but you can see the outline of someone when they're cloaking sometimes...

Anyway I run with caltrops and when that doesn't work, detect pots, and I have no problem finding running nbs 90% of the time unless I'm fighting someone else and they can run far away.. I do agree it's annoying when they try to run but is it any more annoying than a sorc running away with streak? And sorcs seem to have zero issues spamming it even after this patch...

Lava_Croft

Scrub Nation.

FriedEggSandwich

Velocious Curse and a keen eye are the best counters to cloak. If you lose them no big deal cos they'll either decide to attack again or they won't.

Dancheek wrote: »

Most nbs can only cloak 2 or 3 times unless they're chugging magicka pots or they're magicka nbs... even then they can be spotted even with cloak up... not sure if this bug is on pc but you can see the outline of someone when they're cloaking sometimes...

Anyway I run with caltrops and when that doesn't work, detect pots, and I have no problem finding running nbs 90% of the time unless I'm fighting someone else and they can run far away.. I do agree it's annoying when they try to run but is it any more annoying than a sorc running away with streak? And sorcs seem to have zero issues spamming it even after this patch...

You can often see NBs for a split second between casts or sometimes you just see a faint red particle effect as they cast it.

eliisra

I feel there's a few problems with current cloak counters.

1. You need rank 6 Assault as stamina and you need rank 7 Support as magicka, to do it effectively. So lower ranked players, get screwed. Class- and weapon skills aren't good enough to pop out NB's. Lacking range, duration and often long travelling times. By the time your tiny AoE lands, the NB is far gone.

2. With the -50% dmg reduction, it's sort of hard to kill anyone in 12 seconds, before detect potion timer runs out. Skilled NB's will also utilize shade, they can jump out of detection range, before even cloaking.

3. Furiously dropping AoE all over IC to catch a NB being a very bad idea. You're going to die from NPC's aggro.

4. Counters offered to magicka builds being inconvenient. No one is going to run double Radiant Magelight ever. The other morph is mandatory in PvE. Giving up 20% of your skill slots for only one class, is unreasonable. People weren't even willing to slot RM back when stealth attacks would kill them in 0.3 seconds. Think they do it now for only slightly increased stealth detection that's also buggy?

Flare(unlike Caltrops) has no utility or function whatsoever outside of catching NB's. As solo'er you need a well rounded normal builds that works in most scenarios, so if you're going sacrifice skill slots on stuff like Flare/RM, you're severely gimping yourself v.s sorc, templars and DK's.

I'm not saying nerf cloak. But magicka builds need something simliar to caltrops, that can be baked into any high functioning build and still work well against cloak. Low rank PvP'ers also need better tools .

Shunravi

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

You can often see NBs for a split second between casts or sometimes you just see a faint red particle effect as they cast it.

It's hard to see, but it's there. People used to joke about it being so easy to spot.

Junglejim82

Excuse me while I gouge out my eyes with hot spoons

twistedmonk

Cloak is fine.

I would like this thread and all threads on nerfs to be closed and the posters banned from these forums.

these forums have turned into a cesspool of whiners and nerf herders.

They need to have a downvote option so these threads can be made to disappear.

I guess that's why reddit exists, since these "official" forums are really official forums for whiners and really bad players.

Derra

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Velocious Curse and a keen eye are the best counters to cloak. If you lose them no big deal cos they'll either decide to attack again or they won't.

Dancheek wrote: »

Most nbs can only cloak 2 or 3 times unless they're chugging magicka pots or they're magicka nbs... even then they can be spotted even with cloak up... not sure if this bug is on pc but you can see the outline of someone when they're cloaking sometimes...

Anyway I run with caltrops and when that doesn't work, detect pots, and I have no problem finding running nbs 90% of the time unless I'm fighting someone else and they can run far away.. I do agree it's annoying when they try to run but is it any more annoying than a sorc running away with streak? And sorcs seem to have zero issues spamming it even after this patch...

You can often see NBs for a split second between casts or sometimes you just see a faint red particle effect as they cast it.

I´ve met a couple of NBs by now in IC where i would not use curse anymore bc they would run to an NPC while cloaked and i´d aggro said NPC with the curse explosion shooting myself in the knee there. It´s no longer a counter.

Derra

twistedmonk wrote: »

Cloak is fine.

I would like this thread and all threads on nerfs to be closed and the posters banned from these forums.

these forums have turned into a cesspool of whiners and nerf herders.

They need to have a downvote option so these threads can be made to disappear.

I guess that's why reddit exists, since these "official" forums are really official forums for whiners and really bad players.

I would have loved that for everything regarding shields and bolt escape. You´ll get accustomed to ppl not sharing your personal opinion when you get older (or possibly not).

melodeath

i'm not a fan of cloak spam myself but if the majority of the nerf whiners on this forum would use their daily whine topics on issues that are the actual cause of all this nonsence instead of blaming each abbility that they see than we could actually have a chance to have a fix that would solve everyones problems in regards of spamming said abbilities for ever..

Maphusail

ZOS confirmed that they are already thinking about the ways to nerf the cloak. One option is no magicka regen while in cloak. So hopefully it will be fixed soon.

PainfulFAFA

Cloak doesnt need a nerf... FEAR needs a *** nerf. Tired of seeing NB spam fear over and over again until it hits.

Alucardo

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Cloak doesnt need a nerf... FEAR needs a *** nerf. Tired of seeing NB spam fear over and over again until it hits.

Heh, this spell actually annoys me more than cloak. In fact, cloak doesn't bother me. I kept getting feared into oil yesterday for 17k damage. I can handle a NB, I can't really counter flaming oil when I have no control of my character

Maphusail

Can fear be countered by using unstoppable or the appropriate potion?

Farorin

Cathexis wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

This was hard to read due to the lack of structure, so I just skimmed it.

That being said.

Cloak is easy to counter, y'all can try argue it as much as you want, but the fact is, it is easy to counter, literally everytime I have fought a NB in IC, the only times they do well is if I forgot to utilize a counter. If I use just ONE single counter, they are boned.

False. On three separate occasions now I have gone 5v1 with a nightblade who was able to successfully avoid damage for 4+ minutes. Our group used caltrops spam, thundering presence, streak, steel tornado, and potions.

Cloak needs to be fixed.

I see your anecdotal evidence, and raise you my own. Literally every time I have 1v1ed a NB with a counter ready or available, I have been able to beat them, apart from a handful of times that they have gotten away, usually due to my own error.

The only times NBs are a problem for me is if there are multiple enemies with mixed classes, then it is hard to pin down the NB due to the divided attention.

Leandor

In my opinion, magicka users have a very well usable counter against cloak in detection pots. Combining Cornflower, Lady's Smock and Wormwood, you get one that has magicka recovery and spell damage in addition, so that gives you all the tools to wreck the nightblade in the 15 seconds your V15 detect pot will render his cloak unusable.

Stamina users can use caltrops very efficiently to at the same time snare them to make it harder for them to run off. For classes with little mobility, radiant magelight does a lot more than just uncover cloaked targets, it also reduces stealth damage and, more importantly, prevents stuns from stealth attacks.

Yes, radiant is an expensive thing (considering it costs up to two skill slots) but it is worth it in my opinion. The point is, you don't need to slot all counters. Usually one is enough.

It is a sad thing that we still continue with making "nerf" the only answer to powerful abilities. Wings was the first one, closely followed by batswarm. Then we had the bolt escape affair. Then we had shield stacking (which would have been much easier and more elegantly fixed by giving healing ward a fixed end-of-shield heal rather than something that depends on shield size) and shortly thereafter, bolt escape reared it's ugly head again. Then we had blocking and dodge rolling. Now we get to cloak.

When do people start to realize that you are actually destroying more fun with the nerfs than with the abilities themselves?

Maphusail wrote: »

Can fear be countered by using unstoppable or the appropriate potion?

Yes.

Soulac

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Cloak doesnt need a nerf... FEAR needs a *** nerf. Tired of seeing NB spam fear over and over again until it hits.

Since barely anyone is perm blocking you will get stunned anyways.
What about Petrify? Rune prison? Or literally any other stun?
I mean I don't like getting hitted by fear either, but Petrify is three times more annoying thanks to the root.

Asmael

I'm currently using a sorc in BwB, yay battle-scaling, every NB get their big magicka pool to cast cloak 10 times before running out of magicka.

I always make sure to put a Velocious curse on them, but let's be realistic for a second, they're still cloaked until it explodes, and the second it pops, they just have to recast cloak, so basically, unless I'm looking in their exact direction the split second the curse explodes to reapply it, target lost, NB escape successful.

Boundless storm requires you to be exactly on top of the NB for it to work.

In BwB, you don't have Streak (only the basic unmorphed version), so scratch that. It's still not a guarantee.

Steelnado / Caltrops? Nah.

Radiant Magelight is just hilariously bad.

What works? Potions work. They work really well... For the split second duration, because, let's be honest, a good NB (and I do mean a good NB, not the average dude who dies in a split second) will have little trouble surviving the extremely short duration of the potions.

Pesky rats, stay here and die like (wo)men!