Why "Learn to Play" is a Valid Response to Many Issues

THEDKEXPERIENCE

The number of times I've seen a post about how impossible something in ESO is has to number in the hundreds, if not thousands, at this point. Just as common as those posts, however, are the "L2P" responses followed by the flame wars between both camps. Usually the discussion becomes toxic and unproductive, but it clouds the fact that often what seems impossible can be quickly fixed by becoming a better player via hard work. With this post I will try to give a few examples of when "learn to play" actually would be a valid response.

1) I can't do "X" because "X" is OP and should be nerfed.

Probably the most common one. There is no single spell in this game that cannot be countered in some way. In PVP these complaints generally come up with sheild stacking sorcs, fearing nightblades, invisible nightblades and a few other commonly annoying opponents. Each of these has a counter. Sheild stackers, for example, generally have a low offensive output. Use that to your advantage. For invisible opponents there are detection spells. Fearing can be tricky but I self heal like crazy the moment I'm done being frightened. Generally this leaves me with more resouces than my opponent and I can burn them down afterwards.

2) It's all the champion points fault!

Let me be clear, champion points do help. That's irrefutable. What they aren't, however, is an I win button. My lone character is a VR7 Templar with about 63 CP. I spent most of last week in the IC burning down VR15s who looked lost. I also almost got killed by a level 33 who hit like a truck ... almost. If the CP were all that mattered than I'd never kill anybody, but there is much more to it than that. For example I went 1 on 10 last week by sneaking into a crowded room, and then hitting bat swarm followed by radiant destruction. I took out 6 people before my group arrived. This attack had everything to do with situational awareness, not CP.

3) I need the top end gear to be effective in "X".

A) In trials this may actually be the case, but if you could do them with your VR14 gear then now shouldn't be any different.
In any over land PVE you simply do not. If you can't solo a mob in Craglorn at VR5 you have build problems. Soloing VR16 trash mobs in the IC at VR7 has been challenging but very doable.
C) In PVP this is just wrong. I run 5 peices of Seducers and 4 of Magus both of which can be created at any time below VR1. If anything running things like glitched nirnhorn all summer probably lulled a bunch of players into a false sense of security. Tip: if you think you're running an OP'd set of armor expect it to be patched.

There are many, many other examples. Please post your thoughts below on other common times when you believe L2P is a valid response. Maybe we can offer some constructive feedback if we accept that sometimes we all just need to look in the mirror and accept that we can all learn to play better.

DigitalShibby

TL:DR = L2P

THEDKEXPERIENCE

DigitalShibby wrote: »

TL:DR = L2P

I knew I should have put a TLDR.

I couldn't really think of a shorthand way to say it without coming off like a troll.

UrQuan

I agree to a point. If the response is simply "L2P" then it's not really a valid response. If the response is "L2P, and here's some good advice that will help you to L2P in this situation you're having trouble with" then it can be totally valid.

leipatemeibbaa

Totally agree most of the point. People need to learn how to play before open mouth complaints

ShadowMage

Gotta agree with UrQuan. L2P by itself is never a valid response. L2P with an explanation of what you're doing wrong and suggestions on how to improve is a good response in many situations, provided it is also done constructively.

GuyNamedSean

Unfortunately you're correct. Another thing to add is that a lot of the issues that aren't L2P are not caused by the game, but the community. You keep getting smashed by zergs and ZoS made it to where zergs are all that can be done in PvP? It's a war. Numbers are supposed to win. If you don't like that then go fight somewhere that the Zerg isn't.

nimander99

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO on the glitched nirnhoned, I've been asking in guild what the 'fix' to nirnhoned was and haven't gotten a response... I didn't have nirn gear prior to IC so what is the change to it?

Also, I agree with your post... specially about the CP's.

Edit: I usually give L2P responses an Insightful

DenMoria

So, basically you're saying "Git Gud" is a valid response?

It's no wonder the community is narrowing.

No complaints on my end. I am terrible and, no matter how much practice I put in, I will never "Git Gud" so I just accept that I will never play IC or Cyrodil or any form of PvP and probably never have a character make it above level 20.

I've accepted it. Perhaps all of us casuals out there that can't figure out all of it and/or don't have the time should just accept that there are players (many of them) that are simply better than we are and that simply have a better handle on the mechanics of both ESO and MMO's in general.

Perhaps we should stick to the single player RPG's that we seem (or at least I seem) to be able to handle with ease.

Rather than whining about it, that's the route I go and just enjoy ESO for what I actually can get out of it. It is a rather awesome game, after all, just not something I will ever be good at.

tactica

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

<SNIP>
Usually the discussion becomes toxic and unproductive, but it clouds the fact that often what seems impossible can be quickly fixed by becoming a better player via hard work. With this post I will try to give a few examples of when "learn to play" actually would be a valid response.

1. "quickly fixing something with hard work" is interesting phrase. Hard Work in my experience, is usually not synonomous of a quick fix.

2. Hard Work, in any fashion, is contrary to what some would would call an ideal solution for any game. Especially one where they play to kick their feat up, laugh with friends, drink a beer, unwind from a day at work or other real life responsibilities... hard work in a game, is the last thing they want to do in their past time or hobby

3. Telling someone "L2P" if they are posting about a problem or seeking help with their hobby, because frustration has set in with their "enjoyment they seek in their hobby" is doing little if any good... you are very likely fueling a fire and perpetuating toxic dialogue if not with the individual, then with the others reading the post. You are rarely if ever solving anything by using such a phrase. In most if not all cases, you would be better served to not post, than to post such a phrase.

4. I would dare say, that working to educate the person seeking advice might be what you are looking to do. In that case, you are teaching a person to fish who is hungry - so-to-speak. That is a very valid approach to helping them solve their problem. If you can find a way to help them help themselves, then you are serving a purpose. However, I'd suggest you find a way to do so, without antagonizing, bullying or insulting them. The phrase L2P, works to do just the opposite, in my experience.

Cheers,

Yolokin_Swagonborn

I agree on all except for what you said about champion points. By definition of terms, there is no strict "Counter" to champion points.

Yes, a very skilled player can beat a less-skilled player who has more CP but you must admit they will be at a severe statistical disadvantage. This will become more apparent as people get more and more CP. CP is more powerful than gear at this point as maxing out a full CP tree is about 3 times stronger than any 5pc bonus.

Rikal

UrQuan wrote: »

I agree to a point. If the response is simply "L2P" then it's not really a valid response. If the response is "L2P, and here's some good advice that will help you to L2P in this situation you're having trouble with" then it can be totally valid.

Exactly. L2P plus some good advice is useful. Just auto-parroting "L2P" is worthless. Saying L2P and following that with some exaggerated BS, that's less than worthless.

Tonturri

The 'L2P' defense itself is a terrible argument standing alone. Yes, I may be bad, but if people can call out posts that just say 'This is OP plz nerf' I can get on someone's case for just saying 'L2P lol'.

Someone saying 'it's all the CP fault!' without mathmatical proof of the advantage a certain CP number has over another and a bit explaining why they think the difference in stats is significant should be chided for having a bad argument the same way someone who just goes 'L2P' should be chided.

Auricle

This needed to be said. L2P is often a valid response, but I think the problem is when someone responds to a long post with just a snarky 'L2P', instead of helping the aggrieved party work through their problem. It's not helpful to just slap down a 'Learn to Play' and run off. I think the reason a lot of people hate it is because it completely de-values their thoughts on the matter-- and nobody like to be dismissed like that.

I think that if someone feels the need, or right, to 'L2P' at someone, they should also be obligated to offer up some small tidbits to help. If you don't feel like being useful, then just don't post. You may be right about the problem (and seeing a lot of the whiny threads around lately, you definitely are), but it's better to be a problem-solver than a troll, amiright?

nimander99

I wish there was a L2P emote... t'would be pwnage.

traigusb14_ESO2

I've been running into this a lot on Xbox recently.

Grouped with a few (3-4) people in IC sewers and one guy was I was the highest at V 15, but the V 8 and V 7 kept dying while the V3 and the 42 were doing fine.

Both the V8 and V7 were friends and constant complaints were heard until we disbanded maybe after 20 mins.... no points in health at all (or any on armor)... yay for bad glass cannon builds...No food/drink (or soulgems either) no blocking.. just standing in red spamming templar jabby spears like freaks... bam, dead.

Watched another V15 guy keep jumping off of a spawn ledge in IC district and get killed by an ogrim...(with their charging pattern, you get tons of breaks in fight to do whatever...)... sure they are marked as sub-bosses or whatever bu they are the easiest by far.... no blocking, no health.. no stunning on ogrim self heal...bam... dead over and over. swearing in general chat... I tried to show him blocking, rolling and stunning. but he "didn't want to play like that." ... oooook.

I play on an AD dominated PVP server... with medium-high amounts of EP and almost no DC. Arena distinct is just 2 huge zergs rolling back and forth while AD camps arena and blocks the door. Average AD and EP quality is pretty low, hence the zergs. The DC people tend to be nasty and work together, even in small groups.

People die so fast, respawn and are right back in, they can't be worth hardly any AP because of diminishing returns on multiple kills in a short time...(and nobody has stones in the zergs)... so it is actually really a waste of time outside of doing the "kill X of whatever" PVP quests... Convinced my group to go out and take keeps on Sunday (map was all yellow)instead of arena district zerging and made buckets of AP.

Our same group on Sat. kept killing the wandering bosses that were running all over through the PVP glass cannon builds ....and got some goodies... everyone else was so busy running away from the bosses all over the place, so they could get 1 AP for killing someone that died 18 times in the last 10 mins.. it was kinda sad. Everyone that didn't help was mad they couldn't loot the bosses, when they ran by to go zerg the AD again.

On console there are a lot of bad builds....
also
A lot of people that don't know how to play good builds they copied....

Darlgon

In this game?

L2P means:
Learn basic over-all combat skills like block, dodge-roll, heavy attack
Learn how your weapon skills are supposed to work
Learn how your class is supposed to work.
Learn which passives are especially effective

Learn the mechanics of fighing trash mobs
Learn the mini-boss fights
Learn how main boss fights go

Then, throw it all away and learn which bugs will kill you because others are exploiting unfixed bugs
And which bugs YOU can exploit and kill things.

DenMoria

I think I'm recognizing a pattern here.

Everybody keeps saying "builds" and maximizing those same builds.

So ESO truly isn't a game where you can "Play as you want" or "Be what you want". In order to succeed, you must conform to certain build standards in order to succeed?

Am I right?

Please don't take that as a complaint at all. While I don't like to play cookie-cutter builds, if it truly is the only way to succeed, I am more than happy to review any number of successful builds and give it a shot using the techniques of the successful.

I mean, after all, even in the real world, individuality is all well and good, but there are certain "builds" that those who are successes fit in to. "Molds" if you will.

Xendyn

UrQuan wrote: »

I agree to a point. If the response is simply "L2P" then it's not really a valid response. If the response is "L2P, and here's some good advice that will help you to L2P in this situation you're having trouble with" then it can be totally valid.

Which is great if they tell you what the problem is, what class they play, something about their build and are asking for help.

Most of the time they don't, they want to come in here like it's an FPS and all they have to do is hit that "shoot" button then scream for nerfs because it doesn't work..

Maybe L2 take Responsibility would be a better response.

UrQuan

Xendyn wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

I agree to a point. If the response is simply "L2P" then it's not really a valid response. If the response is "L2P, and here's some good advice that will help you to L2P in this situation you're having trouble with" then it can be totally valid.

Which is great if they tell you what the problem is, what class they play, something about their build and are asking for help.

Most of the time they don't, they want to come in here like it's an FPS and all they have to do is hit that "shoot" button then scream for nerfs because it doesn't work..

Maybe L2 take Responsibility would be a better response.

True. If the post in question is just "X is OP, please nerf" with no details on what the issue is that they're having, then it's pretty much impossible to give a useful reply.

Darlgon

DenMoria wrote: »

So ESO truly isn't a game where you can "Play as you want" or "Be what you want". In order to succeed, you must conform to certain build standards in order to succeed?

Am I right?
.

Pretty much, and its getting worse.

Tholian1

It only helps by slowly killing off the player base, one frustrated player at a time. Good job guys.

Forestd16b14_ESO

The only thing I learned from post is that who ever says "L2P" are the ones who really need to learn to play cause in the end there play style is most likely spamming wrecking blow or one of those broken skills which isn't learning to play it's just using a cheap tactic for a easy kill. That or using one of the OP cookie cutter builds again that's not learning that's copy and pasting.

winterbornb14_ESO

Playing a game is meant to be fun or interesting.

If the game is not fun or interesting, learning to deal with it doesn't make it better.

You ever wonder why the overwhelming majority of game players choose easy or normal rather than hard or expert?

L2P is not fun and not many people are interested in things that are not fun.

Two options, L2P the suck or leave the suck for something more fun?

traigusb14_ESO2

DenMoria wrote: »

I think I'm recognizing a pattern here.

Everybody keeps saying "builds" and maximizing those same builds.

So ESO truly isn't a game where you can "Play as you want" or "Be what you want". In order to succeed, you must conform to certain build standards in order to succeed?

Am I right?

Please don't take that as a complaint at all. While I don't like to play cookie-cutter builds, if it truly is the only way to succeed, I am more than happy to review any number of successful builds and give it a shot using the techniques of the successful.

I mean, after all, even in the real world, individuality is all well and good, but there are certain "builds" that those who are successes fit in to. "Molds" if you will.

Well there are builds and there are random skill selections and wearing of hats based on looks....

It is not that hard to get a functional builds and match some equipment to it (including hybrid builds with mixed armor)... are they the "best"? No. Will they work in groups and PVP, yes.

Read your skills and see how they interact. There are lots of cool options ,especially if you open up alternate lines like Mage Undaunted and Fighters.

Pc players seem to go crazy over math and NEEED to have the "best" build... Xbox players seem to rate things based on most spammable skill and "coolest hat" (I turn mine off.. lol)

A current trend on Xbox NA is heavy armor for everyone who played too much Skyrim.. and then wonder why they have no magika or stamina. medium and light are slowly becoming more common, but if you stand in belkarth 9 out of 10 people will be wearing heavy with no real idea why they are doing it. (besides having the most spiky hat!... armor must also always be black... highlight color will vary.)

Gidorick

Whenever I come across a problem in game, in any game, I always assume it's a L2P issue. Boss too hard? I'm not strong enough yet. Killed in PVP? I'm not good enough and need to get more skills.

The whole concept of "I can't do X/Y/Z so the game must broken/imbalanced" is 100% new to me.

DenMoria

Gidorick wrote: »

Whenever I come across a problem in game, in any game, I always assume it's a L2P issue. Boss too hard? I'm not strong enough yet. Killed in PVP? I'm not good enough and need to get more skills.

The whole concept of "I can't do X/Y/Z so the game must broken/imbalanced" is 100% new to me.

I don't disagree, but, isn't that kind of a pessimistic view? Or would it be optimistic? In any case, I want it now! I want the game to cater to me! I don't want to learn to play! I want an easy mode!

Elektrakosh

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

...A current trend on Xbox NA is heavy armor for everyone who played too much Skyrim.. and then wonder why they have no magika or stamina...

I played Skyrim and still play it thanks to this game. I never used heavy armour unless I decided to be a full on two handed sword wielder who loves to shout and dabbles in archery. My ESO character is a mage who wears light armour. Please don't assume we are all the same.

Shunravi

For me, L2P is more of a plea to stop nerfing stuff. So many fun things lost...

Ah well, I try to be helpful when I can, and hope for the best.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Sure.

Usain Bolt runs 100m under 10 seconds and there's a dozen people who can, too. So everyone can. Just L2Run, guys.

leeux

Problem with L2P is that means 2 different things depending on context:

1. Could mean learn basic combat skills and strategy, like avoid reds, to interrupt, block and break free quickly. Also in this category I'd put knowing your class and what each ability does, etc.
2. Could mean learn the in-vogue exploits of the season... i.e. stackable snares, hard-stunning with charges, etc., and all that fun stuff that "organized" teams do.

As long as there no "ESO encyclopaedia of knowledge" to read from and learn like there's in other games, I feel that is unfair to tell people "L2P" and nothing more.

EDIT: grammar