Magicka or Stamina for Tanks?

WyldfireWyrm

Long story short: I'm looking to build a tank. I like support style roles.

I've tried veteran Templar tanking and didn't like the lack of CC.

I'm trying out a low level Sorc tank right now, but it just hasn't clicked with me (currently level 23). Something about the lack of pet control and the need to double bar several skills to play how I'd prefer is not working out for me. It's effective enough, but not my style.

So I'm left with Nightblade or Dragonknight.

I'd like to know which resource these two classes tank best with, magicka or stamina? I'd also appreciate any insightful information that might help me better understand how these two classes achieve the role of tank (playstyle, skills, opinions about what makes it fun, etc). Builds welcome.

shugg

I play a v14 nb tank, realy enjoy it with a 22/30/0 split in attribute points, i will prob go full magic in imperial city but i mainly do pve. Cleared all vet dungeons including Vet Dsa, defiantly recomend it

leepalmer95

Well with the changes to the dk passive, the recovery from using ult's now scales of your highest stat so a stamina tank is viable.

Some people have gone a high stamina tank and spam igneous to get 5% max stamina back per cast ^^

Theres a few builds around on these forums, i remember seeing a syphon nb tank who spams that vamp ability that recovers 10% of your hp ^^

tangy.citrus

Ive played both NB tank and DK tank, and it really depends on your play style. DK tank has way more bubble shields and party support skills than the NB tank BY FAR. Ive saved the party many times over by spamming igneous shield during heavy boss hits when the healer cant keep up. As for the Nightblade tank, I almost never run out of my resources but can barely support the party the way I would like to normally.

I ran NB with 15-34-15. (pre-patch)
Im running DK now with 0-66-0.
I sometimes run out of resources with this dk, but when I do I just throw up a potion, take a shard, heavy attack, or throw down an ultimate. DK tanks are still the best party support or dps tank in the game right now. It gives you the option for both in case you change your mind later.

I highly recommend the DK tank, and as for the attributes and what-not, that will depend on what kind of tank you prefer. I went full HP tank and do not regret it.

symonator

@tangy.citrus

An all out Hp DK, what about your stamina man it must be a bit of an issue.

WyldfireWyrm

I've decided to do a DK tank. I'm still wrestling the decision on the primary resource. Plus I also want this to be vampire or werewolf. I'm still hearing how useless werewolf is, especially after the change to the stamina regen passive and the lack of any tanky type werewolf skills or passives. That makes me lean towards vampire.

I'm curious about vampire tanking viability if I were to do it as a Dunmer DK. My alternative is a Bosmer werewolf DK tank or Imperial uninfected DK tank.

Thoughts on which of the three is most fun?

Wisler89

I tried a Sorc tank and a NB tank. And please note that I only have experience as a magicka based tank, so this will be what I talk about.

About the Sorc tank:
What most people assume: You need to slot pets, because the clannfear can take the heat of you.
What most people forget: The clannfear taunt only works if you run solo, as soon as there is at least ONE other player the taunt no longer works. That is no bug, that is working as intended.
As soon as you realize this and have 5 slot + ulti available the sorc tank can be really good. Unfortunately you will never offer much group support.

About the NB tank:
I think with the update Magicka based NB tanks are the new heros. If I pay attention (which is not really needed most of the time ) no resource drops below 40-50%. And I think NBs offer more ultility and group support than DKs. Funnel Health, Veil, Healing Path and War Horn (well everyone has this ) are very good and help to make the life of everyone easier. Maybe the dps is a little bit lower but I think the rest balances that out.

About DK and Templar tanks:
General conses in my guild is that DK tanks are still very good and viable but Templar tanks seem to no longer really work since the update. Every class has some skill to restore Stamina during a boss fight, except Templar.

Equip everyone appears to wear:
5x Footman
5x Hist Bark
2x Engine Guardian
Enchantments vary, depending on the player but I think most enchant at least two jewelry pieces with reduced block cost.
Attributes should be: 25k Health (any more is really not needed), rest in Magicka, Stamina base value. With Tri-food you should reach 15k+ stamina and this is more than enough if you invest a little in block cost reduction.

Skills of course vary but you need a taunt (duh), maybe the 15% less damage skill, a armor buff. And a self heal. The rest can be utility, damage, whatever.

bigereard

How about magicka regen, ultimate gain, and max stamina build for DK?
With this you can see your magicka regen (+helping hand) and ultimate gain (+battle roar) as stamina regen while blocking. (stamina gain is scaling with max stamina)
And let say with magma armor as ultimate you can drop your block for a while, swap your weapon, taunt, and heavy attack like crazy.

About the CC, DK has very good AoE stopper and slower, this will be very useful in PVE and superb in PVP
not mention 12% plus healing taken from burning heart will make healer's day easier.

as long as you don't really care about damage (only damage resistance and CC), DK + magicka regen + ultimate gain + max stamina is best combination of CC tank I can think

For the item sets I think of footman for maximizing block effectiveness + blood spawn for ultimate generation & extra armor

---

Actually templar can be a very good tank, but you must think little different to make templar tank works.
In last test I conduct in PTS, I can have almost permanent 50%-60% self damage resistance (even before factoring armor), 8-12% party damage resistance and self heal about 15-24k every 2-3 sec while heal my party 75% of that number.

But, no CC of course....

Waffennacht

@Wisler89 Can you elaborate on what you said?

I'm assuming you are saying pets are less (if any) useful in a group. As I have only soloed dungeons I have little experience in that.

What would you recommend in their place? I would like some ideas as most of my spell choices seem rather lackluster.

Question: in Group play or even PvP would Mage's Light morph (the max magicka morph) be better suited than Monarch? Im thinking a toggle that I've avoided can be just as good. Would armaments be better for the tank? (Gees its ugly and such minor armor boost...)

After the update I spent 40k gold to end up where I started lol

Waffennacht

Looking for feedback on elemental drain as well. If Liquid Lightning and Boundless Presence proc it, wouldn't that be a massive magicka gain?

Wisler89

Pets (at least the clannfear) are really useful when playing solo. But in a group setting they are just meh. If Necropotence dropped at v16, maybe a dd build using pets would be possible but as it stands pure spell damage builds are just superior.

What Skills to use:
1. bar: Taunt (your choice which one), Heroic Slash, Hardened Ward, Dark Deal (converts magicka in health and stamina), Absorb Magick, Aggressive Warhorn
2. bar: Range Taunt, Liquid Lightning, Boundless Storm, Hardend Ward, Absorb Magick, Suppression Field

First bar is for boss fights, second bar for trash mobs. You have to be careful when using Dark Deal because you stop blocking for about a second but if you know the boss somewhat it shouldn't be a problem. And as you can see, you aren't really able to deal much damage Sorc lack a spamable single target skill. And the group utility isn't all that great either.

If you say Monarch you mean the twilight right? If yes, I would only use it in a pet-dd-build in PvE or in solo or small-scale PvP. Regarding pet-dd-build, see above. In PvP it is hilarious how few people know how to fight a pet build
But generally I don't use toggles in PvP, just no space for them. If you have the slots available, Inner Light or Radiant Magelight are good (probably the best) choices.

Elemental Drain doesn't proc on DoTs. It did in times long past (where it was part of the DK builds which could solo literally everything) but not now. BUT Force Shock (and morphs) activate it three times which makes this the most magicka efficient skill to use.

WyldfireWyrm

bigereard wrote: »

How about magicka regen, ultimate gain, and max stamina build for DK?
With this you can see your magicka regen (+helping hand) and ultimate gain (+battle roar) as stamina regen while blocking. (stamina gain is scaling with max stamina)
And let say with magma armor as ultimate you can drop your block for a while, swap your weapon, taunt, and heavy attack like crazy.

About the CC, DK has very good AoE stopper and slower, this will be very useful in PVE and superb in PVP
not mention 12% plus healing taken from burning heart will make healer's day easier.

as long as you don't really care about damage (only damage resistance and CC), DK + magicka regen + ultimate gain + max stamina is best combination of CC tank I can think

For the item sets I think of footman for maximizing block effectiveness + blood spawn for ultimate generation & extra armor

---

Actually templar can be a very good tank, but you must think little different to make templar tank works.
In last test I conduct in PTS, I can have almost permanent 50%-60% self damage resistance (even before factoring armor), 8-12% party damage resistance and self heal about 15-24k every 2-3 sec while heal my party 75% of that number.

But, no CC of course....

Templar tanking is not for me like Sorc tanking is not for me. It's all a playstyle preference issue, not viability. Both are perfectly fine to tank with, just not for me.

Your DK idea intrigues me. I like the idea of a magicka regen and max stamina focus because it utilizes both resources in different ways. I still want to make a Dunmer vampire DK tank. Dunmer passives would help out with both magicka and stamina as well as negate most of the increased fire damage a vampire would take. Think that would work?

The blood spawn might be a better choice for a DK tank since their big resource management skill relies on their use of ultimates, right?

Wisler89 wrote: »

I tried a Sorc tank and a NB tank. And please note that I only have experience as a magicka based tank, so this will be what I talk about.

About the Sorc tank:
What most people assume: You need to slot pets, because the clannfear can take the heat of you.
What most people forget: The clannfear taunt only works if you run solo, as soon as there is at least ONE other player the taunt no longer works. That is no bug, that is working as intended.
As soon as you realize this and have 5 slot + ulti available the sorc tank can be really good. Unfortunately you will never offer much group support.

About the NB tank:
I think with the update Magicka based NB tanks are the new heros. If I pay attention (which is not really needed most of the time ) no resource drops below 40-50%. And I think NBs offer more ultility and group support than DKs. Funnel Health, Veil, Healing Path and War Horn (well everyone has this ) are very good and help to make the life of everyone easier. Maybe the dps is a little bit lower but I think the rest balances that out.

About DK and Templar tanks:
General conses in my guild is that DK tanks are still very good and viable but Templar tanks seem to no longer really work since the update. Every class has some skill to restore Stamina during a boss fight, except Templar.

Equip everyone appears to wear:
5x Footman
5x Hist Bark
2x Engine Guardian
Enchantments vary, depending on the player but I think most enchant at least two jewelry pieces with reduced block cost.
Attributes should be: 25k Health (any more is really not needed), rest in Magicka, Stamina base value. With Tri-food you should reach 15k+ stamina and this is more than enough if you invest a little in block cost reduction.

Skills of course vary but you need a taunt (duh), maybe the 15% less damage skill, a armor buff. And a self heal. The rest can be utility, damage, whatever.

That is how I wanted to play a Sorc tank. A pet based tank class would be awesome IMO. It would be great if I didn't have to double bar over half my available skill slots to play how I wanted.

I think the big difference between NB tanks and DK tanks is that NB tanks have better resource management and damage (they do have a class execute for either resource type while DK has nothing similar) and DK tanks have better debuffs and CC. The latter is what I think I will enjoy most, though this game finds ways to surprise me.

I saw someone mention Histbark was a poor choice now with the changes to stamina regen while blocking because people are blocking much less often, making the dodge chance feel "meh". I'm intrigued by a blood spawn and Footman combo.

bigereard

@WyldfireWyrm
How about 2 blood spawn + 5 footman + 5 dragon guard
I think dragonguard will be very good because it has magicka regen, healing taken, max health, and ultimate cost reduction (-30 for magma armor)
not mentioned the impenetrable trait

I think dunmer is a very good idea if you want to go vampire
invigorating drain will provide you ton of ultimate in combination with dragon guard and blood spawn (ton of ultimate = ton of resource for DK)
you also will harder to kill when in low health
magicka regen is also powerful when you face all range enemy in pvp, you can just spam reflective scale

About the team support, DK is only second to templar i think..
Both of magma armor morph is useful
AoE Stopper and Slower
Igneous shield = shield, weapon damage, & healing buff for all + restore stamina + ultimate gain (remember, ultimate gain = all resource gain)
this + 5% weapon damage for all + -100% armor from corrosive armor = superpowerful buff for stamina DPS

WyldfireWyrm

bigereard wrote: »

@WyldfireWyrm
How about 2 blood spawn + 5 footman + 5 dragon guard
I think dragonguard will be very good because it has magicka regen, healing taken, max health, and ultimate cost reduction (-30 for magma armor)
not mentioned the impenetrable trait

I think dunmer is a very good idea if you want to go vampire
invigorating drain will provide you ton of ultimate in combination with dragon guard and blood spawn (ton of ultimate = ton of resource for DK)
you also will harder to kill when in low health
magicka regen is also powerful when you face all range enemy in pvp, you can just spam reflective scale

About the team support, DK is only second to templar i think..
Both of magma armor morph is useful
AoE Stopper and Slower
Igneous shield = shield, weapon damage, & healing buff for all + restore stamina + ultimate gain (remember, ultimate gain = all resource gain)
this + 5% weapon damage for all + -100% armor from corrosive armor = superpowerful buff for stamina DPS

@bigereard

Wearing Dragon Guard armor as a DK just sounds awesome. LOL The gear sounds great.

How important is health regeneration for tanks? I saw someone post that the reduced health regen is a death sentence for vampire. I thought tanks focused on max health with resource regen.

What are some of the best tanking ultimates for DK?

bigereard

@WyldfireWyrm
Health regeneration focused build can have 7.7k + health regen.. (but you must have robust racial, slotted many draconic power skill, orgnum's set, health regen enchant acc, mundus, drink, etc)
with that much sacrifice, you'll have 3.85k health/sec, good, but not so much.

There's a thread in PTS subforum about maximizing heal.
With right setting templar healer can crit for 45k heal, let's say an average healer will have about 25k health per heal.
I don think difference in 28.85 k health/sec and 25.5 k health/sec is worth the other advantage of go vampire.

so as long as you have good healer i don't think become vampire will much affect your health per second.
In low health your effective health/sec is even better due to undeath passive.

In PVP however, when this 25k heal will reduce to 12.5 k heal, and maybe still reduced further from healing debuff, health regen become more-more useful (at least in some situation).
I once concept a survivability sorc that combine high damage shield with either self heal or health regen to counter shield breaker, so i know the comparison.

But, if you want to have good resistance and generate high survivability it will be best to go templar.

---

for ultimate (tank):
The best i can think is corrosive armor,
the second is magma shell
both of this ultimate give you time to drop your block, even swap your weapon, you'll have 5 tick of stamina regen & time to do 5-8 heavy attack (restore stamina), or you can do invigorating drain (ultimate gain), or other creative thing.

with good ultimate generation you can be in "corrosive armor/magma shell mode" for about 40%-50% of your tanking time, and that's a lot!!
since you'll only blocking about 10-15 sec, or less, if you decide to spam igneous shield for some moment (to gain your stamina back while absorb damage and protect your team), and you'll have 11 sec of ultimate (free time to gain your stamina/ultimate back)

this 2 ultimate will be best if combine with immoveable potion when activated (immovable + stamina + health potion will be best). So you won't be cc-ed in your precious time.

I don't think other ultimate will even close to this 2 ultimate in term of tanking.
standard is for PVP.
barrier and horn is good, but i think it's better to have your support sorcerer do this, they have 15% ultimate cost reduction.

---

the other ultimate however is good to have advantage from their passive.
for example you can slot barrier for extra 10% magicka regen. then swap to other weapon when you want to do corrosive armor.
Or, you can activate corrosive armor (-100% armor), then swap to flawless dawnbreaker (+weapon damage), activated molten armament (+heavy attack damage), and your heavy attack damage could potentially tripled.

I personally prefer the later, Usually I swap to two handed sword with weighted trait (high base damage, follow up & executioner passive, 5% extra damage, more attack speed), rally (self heal,+20% weapon damage), degeneration (self heal, chance to burst heal with weapon attack), and heavy attack like crazy...
you'll help the team DPS while gain your stamina back and potentially burst heal yourself. So your healer can focus to gain magicka or help your other teammates.

Or, many other combination of course..

WyldfireWyrm

@bigereard

Thank you for the advice. You've given me a lot to think about. LOL

Waffennacht

I purposely avoided this thread because you said you didn't really want to keep trying out the sorc tank.

Well I just wanted to mention a few new things while this thing is going.

The new dark conversion or the other morphs are not a heal, therefore it is not subject to the heal nerf. Not to mention the magicka gain, coupled with restoration staff resource management for a sorc is just as strong as any other class.

The sorcs dps is pretty much right in the middle of all classes, they do typically out rank templar for dmg.

Hardened ward is still great, even with sb, dark conversion can over come the life loss and regen magicka.

As a sorc we have some great CC moves, I would say a Sorc can control the battlefield better than any other class, lending for a great support role.

I did read you don't like having over half your bar as toggles, well as I'll always advocate using pets, but they aren't necessary. Even if you do use them, I'd heavily propose not using another toggle with them.

Immovable and Boundless form are very comparable. The immune is nice for immovable but I really love the increased speed and damage, this has become my new gap closer and AoE.

As of last night I killed so many dragonknights that I unlocked that dragonknight slayer achievement (honestly all of them were at least 3 vet levels higher, and it was 5 different 1v1s last night)

I know you got bored with the last sorc tank, but I say maybe give it one more try, my current set up is no longer just 3 buttons lol

WyldfireWyrm

Waffennacht wrote: »

I purposely avoided this thread because you said you didn't really want to keep trying out the sorc tank.

Well I just wanted to mention a few new things while this thing is going.

The new dark conversion or the other morphs are not a heal, therefore it is not subject to the heal nerf. Not to mention the magicka gain, coupled with restoration staff resource management for a sorc is just as strong as any other class.

The sorcs dps is pretty much right in the middle of all classes, they do typically out rank templar for dmg.

Hardened ward is still great, even with sb, dark conversion can over come the life loss and regen magicka.

As a sorc we have some great CC moves, I would say a Sorc can control the battlefield better than any other class, lending for a great support role.

I did read you don't like having over half your bar as toggles, well as I'll always advocate using pets, but they aren't necessary. Even if you do use them, I'd heavily propose not using another toggle with them.

Immovable and Boundless form are very comparable. The immune is nice for immovable but I really love the increased speed and damage, this has become my new gap closer and AoE.

As of last night I killed so many dragonknights that I unlocked that dragonknight slayer achievement (honestly all of them were at least 3 vet levels higher, and it was 5 different 1v1s last night)

I know you got bored with the last sorc tank, but I say maybe give it one more try, my current set up is no longer just 3 buttons lol

I haven't deleted my 23 Sorc tank. I just shelved it because I'm not super happy with the playstyle. I wanted a pet class tank, but having to double bar several toggle skills limits the playstyle severely. I'm still toying around with it, so we'll see where it ends up. If I can find a way to make it work, I will.

For right now though, I'm playing around with my DK tank. It can be frustrating at times because some of the CC skills don't work as they should. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to talon a group of enemies, but only 50-75% get rooted.

The way things have been going, I will probably end up with a NB healer, a Sorc tank and either a DK tank or healer.