Jumping Keep walls Before they are down all the way

DiabloHell

I witnessed a huge group of Daggerfall jump the wall at Chalmen Keep before it was completely down. This should be fixed in the next patch (after this one, I dont see a notice in the patch updates) There are restrictive walls that are supposed to prevent you from jumping over, but it seems people found holes. It allows nightblades in before they should get a chance.

Thoughts?

Alucardo

DiabloHell wrote: »

It allows nightblades in before they should get a chance.

Thoughts?

Why just nightblades? are some of your team standing on top of the broken wall in reach of ambush or something? I don't really understand.

DiabloHell

Alucardo wrote: »

DiabloHell wrote: »

It allows nightblades in before they should get a chance.

Thoughts?

Why just nightblades? are some of your team standing on top of the broken wall in reach of ambush or something? I don't really understand.

Not when they can disappear infront of you by just crouching. They stack purge and templars only heal, they start jumping it and they redirect seige weapon fire from the wall, nightblades can start burning equipment before the wall is even down. As most people are not watching for Enemies around them before the walls go down.

I had been defending for at least 6 hours at the time, and seeing that really pissed me off. We were able to defend and push them out, but not before they burnt half our siege weapons on the walls. If they want to make it possible to jump the walls it shouldn't be so difficult to do it. Either have it one way or the other, in-between is garbage and broken. Try jumping in yourself and realize how hard it is, it is that difficult because it is an exploit and needs to be fixed to go either letting no one in or letting everyone who can get up on the wall in.

Alucardo

Ah right. I thought you meant it was some kind of exploit only Nightblades could accomplish. I mean, not to encourage them or anything, but if a few stealthy NBs can slip over that wall undetected and burn all your sieges on the tower with no one noticing, then good on them. They deserve extra AP for being tactful imo. Still, I agree it should be one way or the other.

Reb

twice now i have come across groups doing this at black boot....they take the outer wall down enough to jump over ..but not enough to flag the keep as under attack..and then take down the inner wall, the keep does not even apear under attack on the map until the inner wall is well under way

DiabloHell

Alucardo wrote: »

Ah right. I thought you meant it was some kind of exploit only Nightblades could accomplish. I mean, not to encourage them or anything, but if a few stealthy NBs can slip over that wall undetected and burn all your sieges on the tower with no one noticing, then good on them. They deserve extra AP for being tactful imo. Still, I agree it should be one way or the other.

Yes, that would make a big difference in sieging if everyone was capable, but unless someone teaches you, or you stand there trying to jump it over you will never learn. Then eventually there will be a group who sieges the walls to a third health, all of them jump the wall and can start sieging the inner postern wall without any of the outer walls ever going down. Meaning when it switches over to the capturing alliance they already have it part way repaired and the invaders wont be able to get in.

Winterpsy

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

DiabloHell

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Thanks for reading no one else's posts. We have all been agreeing it should be one way or the other, you are saying that an exploit is okay. Not everyone can jump it, you have to know specifically how to do it and unless someone teaches you, or you stand there trying to do it yourself you will never be able to do it. If they want it to be a feature in PVP it should be an all or nothing deal.

Lol, sleeping behind siege weapons. They get in before they should be allowed, some night blades appear from no where and burn you equipment, they crouch and go to the next one. They can light up 2 or 3 before getting hit. Its an exploit, it does not add 'flavor'. That is why it is so hard to jump the wall in the first place. one way or the other.

UltimaJoe777

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Saying that means you are probably one of them. If not then there is still absolutely no reason to defend a bug and those that exploit it. Next you'll probably say people should start learning how to spot Cold Siege Weapon shots before they hit...

All this aside we do require confirmation from Zenimax that this is indeed a bug or this was never supposed to be possible.

Turelus

Nightblades actually have two ways to bypass keep walls still. Via Propelling Shield + Teleport Strike combo or by using the Teleport to shade mechanic (requires someone inside already).

I'm actually all for this kind of inventive gameplay, however with the nerfs to every other classes ability to do this it might only be fair to bring the Nightblade in line with them.

Winterpsy

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Saying that means you are probably one of them. If not then there is still absolutely no reason to defend a bug and those that exploit it. Next you'll probably say people should start learning how to spot Cold Siege Weapon shots before they hit...

All this aside we do require confirmation from Zenimax that this is indeed a bug or this was never supposed to be possible.

If you read my signature it's stated I have no Nightblade characters at all. There are differences between bugs & bugs. Some may have beneficial side-effects. Lets not compare this with the Coldharbour issue.

DiabloHell wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Thanks for reading no one else's posts. We have all been agreeing it should be one way or the other, you are saying that an exploit is okay. Not everyone can jump it, you have to know specifically how to do it and unless someone teaches you, or you stand there trying to do it yourself you will never be able to do it. If they want it to be a feature in PVP it should be an all or nothing deal.

Lol, sleeping behind siege weapons. They get in before they should be allowed, some night blades appear from no where and burn you equipment, they crouch and go to the next one. They can light up 2 or 3 before getting hit. Its an exploit, it does not add 'flavor'. That is why it is so hard to jump the wall in the first place. one way or the other.

As for exploits being defended. Some characters have the abilities to do stuff while others dont. A bunch of Nightblades bypassing defenses is actually quite realistic. It's a side-effect of a bug? It is. Does it give a huge advantage? Compare it to the risk involved, it's I'd say quite fair. You can extinguish fire on siege weapons. You can hunt down the enemy "agents".
They took the risk of going up against overwhelming defenders.
Many siege machine handlers fall asleep behind the machines, failing to even spot the growing red circle around them. On my battle healer I stopped to even care, burning all my magicka on purges and heals for weeks trying to save these guys.

The catapult handlers should not lower their defenses. Yeah, it likely hasnt happened before that often, but still even enemy siege machines can bombard behind the walls. Standing there like a stoned green-ear, motionless. They deserve to be arse-kicked for combat-unawareness.

DiabloHell

Winterpsy wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Saying that means you are probably one of them. If not then there is still absolutely no reason to defend a bug and those that exploit it. Next you'll probably say people should start learning how to spot Cold Siege Weapon shots before they hit...

All this aside we do require confirmation from Zenimax that this is indeed a bug or this was never supposed to be possible.

If you read my signature it's stated I have no Nightblade characters at all. There are differences between bugs & bugs. Some may have beneficial side-effects. Lets not compare this with the Coldharbour issue.

DiabloHell wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Thanks for reading no one else's posts. We have all been agreeing it should be one way or the other, you are saying that an exploit is okay. Not everyone can jump it, you have to know specifically how to do it and unless someone teaches you, or you stand there trying to do it yourself you will never be able to do it. If they want it to be a feature in PVP it should be an all or nothing deal.

Lol, sleeping behind siege weapons. They get in before they should be allowed, some night blades appear from no where and burn you equipment, they crouch and go to the next one. They can light up 2 or 3 before getting hit. Its an exploit, it does not add 'flavor'. That is why it is so hard to jump the wall in the first place. one way or the other.

As for exploits being defended. Some characters have the abilities to do stuff while others dont. A bunch of Nightblades bypassing defenses is actually quite realistic. It's a side-effect of a bug? It is. Does it give a huge advantage? Compare it to the risk involved, it's I'd say quite fair. You can extinguish fire on siege weapons. You can hunt down the enemy "agents".
They took the risk of going up against overwhelming defenders.
Many siege machine handlers fall asleep behind the machines, failing to even spot the growing red circle around them. On my battle healer I stopped to even care, burning all my magicka on purges and heals for weeks trying to save these guys.

The catapult handlers should not lower their defenses. Yeah, it likely hasnt happened before that often, but still even enemy siege machines can bombard behind the walls. Standing there like a stoned green-ear, motionless. They deserve to be arse-kicked for combat-unawareness.

Honestly, I think that is stupid. Nightblades already have their SUPER OVER POWERING crouch and disappear even if you are staring at them. After the patch they are breaking nightblades disappear passive even more and easier.

That hole; It makes seige take damage it should never encounter. It makes characters have to focus on attacking enemies inside and outside, when all of the walls should still be up. It breaks defending gameplay, so that if you even make it to your keep before the outer wall goes down, there is never a reason to backup the people on the walls because they are already inside. It will make 'group in a box' almost pointless. It makes every keep wall have 33% less health (after everyone learns how to get over the wall). It bypasses the boundary lines (invisible walls) placed on the wall to prevent people from jumping over. There is no way a Sorcerer, Templar or Dragonknight could do anywhere near as much damage as a nightblade, who can burn equipment without getting caught and run around burning siege when every other class will get pumbled. My guild practically taught all of Blackwater Blade how to seige inner and outer wall at once. Jumping the outer-wall early is not remotely the same a Seiging like a Master and taking both walls down at once, you are dumb if you think they are analogous.

I never fall asleep on my seige weapons, In fact im usually the one knocking everyone off theirs. The issue is that it is an exploit. What is the point of ever taking down walls when you can hop it? There would literally be no reason for the last 33% of the wall.

And for those of us who do care and actually put the hours in to try to become emperor, I think it definitely needs to be fixed.
Nightblades should not have so many advantages during seiges. They can already burn our siege with impunity when attacking, but now also when defending with the walls still up? No, that is way to far and not fair.

Also, I am only one staff post away before I teach Dominion and Pact how to do it. And with the over 1500 players in two different Areas that I have access too, Im sure Ill spread the word. Then we will all ignore the last 33% of the outer-wall.

yodased

I actually saw this in action for the first time last night.

The trick is to knock walls down and then you jump up and to the left of the wall, almost off, its like there is a piece of wall that still has collision in that one area. You can then jump up and over the wall.

It's dirty, but not sure if it can be considered an "exploit" I mean the wall is only about 2 feet high at that point, expecting people to not be able to jump it is a tad ridiculous.

DiabloHell

yodased wrote: »

I actually saw this in action for the first time last night.

The trick is to knock walls down and then you jump up and to the left of the wall, almost off, its like there is a piece of wall that still has collision in that one area. You can then jump up and over the wall.

It's dirty, but not sure if it can be considered an "exploit" I mean the wall is only about 2 feet high at that point, expecting people to not be able to jump it is a tad ridiculous.

That's what I thought when I first started playing campaign. If it was actually possible to jump it without using abilities, it would make some kind of sense and we could adjust. But there are restrictive walls (invisible walls) that are being bypassed and I know if I programmed them in there I wouldn't leave small holes here and there intentionally. Also, low levels have no chance of jumping the walls, so they are forced to watch as their allies jump the wall and get left behind. I thought we were all forced to V5 when we enter non-veteran campaigns, that really makes game-play unbalanced between lower levels and higher levels who have access to those skills and additional skill points.

It should be all or nothing then, giving advantage to players who can jump over and disappear completely by just crouching is not fair. Everyone in your group should have no problem with scaling the walls then, so when the wall hits 33% everyone is allowed in. When people can sneak in and burn equipment and disappear before the fire animation even shows, is not right either, before it was no problem but now I see it becoming a big problem because 'falling asleep' is not a reason why your siege weapon got burnt down. It was because someone exploited a bug, got in, then positioned themselves inside your trebuchet so you cant see them before they crouch and go to the next one. Guaranteeing at least 2 sieges on fire.

If they really did want you getting in a 33% wall health, they wouldn't make the doors disappear on the walls that are 67% damaged, as the door wouldn't be there anymore and the wall would be directly open. Currently the Postern House walls switch to door-less segments and it doesn't allow people to rush through the door, seems like they are trying to keep us out. One of the many reasons I think its an exploit.

lolo_01b16_ESO

DiabloHell wrote: »

Also, low levels have no chance of jumping the walls, so they are forced to watch as their allies jump the wall and get left behind.

This is just wrong, I could overcome many outer and inner walls with a level 20 dk, some even without needing an enemy player standing in a certain spot.

In my opinion there should be multiple ways to get into keeps which are different depending on the keep. They should add things like climbing, secret tunnels and various siege weapons to add more tactics and surprise moments to the fight.

UltimaJoe777

Winterpsy wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Saying that means you are probably one of them. If not then there is still absolutely no reason to defend a bug and those that exploit it. Next you'll probably say people should start learning how to spot Cold Siege Weapon shots before they hit...

All this aside we do require confirmation from Zenimax that this is indeed a bug or this was never supposed to be possible.

If you read my signature it's stated I have no Nightblade characters at all. There are differences between bugs & bugs. Some may have beneficial side-effects. Lets not compare this with the Coldharbour issue.

DiabloHell wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's no sportsmanship, fairness and chivalry in war.
War's dirty.

Enemy agents managed to get inside while your defenders were sleeping behind the siege weapons?
Tough luck.

Need to be aware, expect the unexpected.
I think little thingies like these, even if unintended bring a good flavour to the pvp.

Thanks for reading no one else's posts. We have all been agreeing it should be one way or the other, you are saying that an exploit is okay. Not everyone can jump it, you have to know specifically how to do it and unless someone teaches you, or you stand there trying to do it yourself you will never be able to do it. If they want it to be a feature in PVP it should be an all or nothing deal.

Lol, sleeping behind siege weapons. They get in before they should be allowed, some night blades appear from no where and burn you equipment, they crouch and go to the next one. They can light up 2 or 3 before getting hit. Its an exploit, it does not add 'flavor'. That is why it is so hard to jump the wall in the first place. one way or the other.

As for exploits being defended. Some characters have the abilities to do stuff while others dont. A bunch of Nightblades bypassing defenses is actually quite realistic. It's a side-effect of a bug? It is. Does it give a huge advantage? Compare it to the risk involved, it's I'd say quite fair. You can extinguish fire on siege weapons. You can hunt down the enemy "agents".
They took the risk of going up against overwhelming defenders.
Many siege machine handlers fall asleep behind the machines, failing to even spot the growing red circle around them. On my battle healer I stopped to even care, burning all my magicka on purges and heals for weeks trying to save these guys.

The catapult handlers should not lower their defenses. Yeah, it likely hasnt happened before that often, but still even enemy siege machines can bombard behind the walls. Standing there like a stoned green-ear, motionless. They deserve to be arse-kicked for combat-unawareness.

And just when did I say you were a Nightblade? I am a Nightblade and am all too familiar with the Teleport Strike exploit having done it a few times myself but only to get up on the Morrowind Gate walls lol but that is not the issue at hand here.

ArgonianDovah

I never realized that this was an exploit. I figured that most characters wouldn't jump in just because of the super high chance of getting slaughtered upon hopping the wall, not because they weren't supposed to.

Oh well. All's fair in love and war!

I don't really have a problem with it. Let them try their hardest to hoppity-hop over and kill them as soon as they touch the ground.

imredneckson

DiabloHell wrote: »

I witnessed a huge group of Daggerfall jump the wall at Chalmen Keep before it was completely down. This should be fixed in the next patch (after this one, I dont see a notice in the patch updates) There are restrictive walls that are supposed to prevent you from jumping over, but it seems people found holes. It allows nightblades in before they should get a chance.

Thoughts?

EP loves to jump into Aleswell and kill all the defenders while their buddies burst the keep. Ive even seen a full group of AD exploit their way into the inner at Ales and flip the keep without firing a shot. Overall there are so many ways to get inside a keep/outpost its not even funny. Best to catch them on camera or screenshot and report it.

FatKidHatchets

So is this ever going to get fixed? It has reached the point where people get mad at you for not glitch jumping a wall. I just wish folks had enough self control not to use exploits .

yodased

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I just wish folks had enough self control not to use exploits .

+1 would solve all problems, but requires shift in perception of what to do with discovered power.

UltimaJoe777

yodased wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I just wish folks had enough self control not to use exploits .

+1 would solve all problems, but requires shift in perception of what to do with discovered power.

Sadly it is the complete opposite. They see exploits as an opportunity and jump at them rather than have the decency to try to play the game properly. Only a small handful of players like myself actually walk away from using exploits for an unfair advantage...

DiabloHell

Good. Im seeing everyone is agreeing with my premise. All or nothing. I want to see either one of those happen. There has to be a fix for it.

A secret tunnel makes more sense than jumping through a wall that is actively being hit by giant stones, exploding ceramic oil pots and massive ballista arrows. From a physics perspective it is impossible in the real world or really any-world. I thought the idea was realistic sieging and combat opposed to utter cartoon fantasy which does not exist in any of the other Elder Scrolls.

OzJohnD

Sappers !

Novustratum

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

I just wish folks had enough self control not to use exploits .

+1 would solve all problems, but requires shift in perception of what to do with discovered power.

Sadly it is the complete opposite. They see exploits as an opportunity and jump at them rather than have the decency to try to play the game properly. Only a small handful of players like myself actually walk away from using exploits for an unfair advantage...

Same here. I can't stand players who have to exploit their way to victory. At least I know they are experiencing a hollow victory at best, because inside, they know what they did to get it.

When it comes to games with PVP though, and I mean any game, people will take advantage of anything they can just to say they're better than someone else who may be playing fairly. It disgusts me.