Why, as Stamina users do we feel entitled to PERMANENT roll dodge and block?

Truewan

I have two classes, Templar and Nightblade, both of them are stamina DPS.

The templar still uses sword and board in PvP. The Night blade uses duel wield, both use the bow as the second choice.

Now that is out of the way... there was nothing more annoying then seeing someone permanently block and infinite roll dodge, as a stamina player. Yes, I could do it, in fact I 'had' to do it to compete vs these other roll dodgers.

I cannot express how happy I was to see this playstyle no longer possible, indeed, I've outright raged quit because stamina nightblades would infinite roll dodge and DK's would permanently block. I immediately notice a difference, in that PvP is no longer the gimmicky mess that it once was.

Sure, you have to take damage, but you've gained survivability through the damage nerf in PvP. I haven't heard one good thing about this change. I don't die as often and frankly if 10 people are wailing on you, you should not be able to defeat them through infinite roll dodge.

Roll dodge isn't even historically accurate as a means of escape - it was a waste of time and people would cut you midway through the dodge. The fact that some people would dodge over as a means of escape, well, you should not be able to escape, even I have issues with nightblade cloak being spammable and makes you competely invisible, AND removes dots, but that's another topic.

To sum it up, we're not bad, we're just not overpowered anymore and people think that not being overpowered means they are bad. I just wanted to give you another perspective on this topic, one I feel many people have not considered in their rants about the so called 'massive nerf' to stamina builds. My hope is that these knee jerk reactions threads will go away, preferably with an arrow through them.

likelolwhat

I still think the stamina nerf should have been PvP only, but you do raise a point.

Mitchblue

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

Waffennacht

Truewan wrote: »

My hope is that these knee jerk reactions threads will go away, preferably with an arrow through them.

Lmfao, i was going to post something relevant but then read that bit and lost it lol

leepalmer95

I hated vsing perm dodge rolling nb's such a boring fight. They literally try to gank and if they don't kill you it's roll dodge for 2 mins then spam their 2 skills and dead.

Rikal

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

Boring someone to death is still a win right?.

Jennifur_Vultee

I don't feel entitled, my dragonknight tank is magic based with 20 points in magic and 43 in health so what little stamina I do have was mostly reserved for my one taunt, one shield from the heavy armor skill line, blocking and dodging out of danger. At this point blocking twice and dodging one or two times totally depletes my stamina leaving me to back out of the red slowly and/or absorb all the damage directly.

I guess my only option if I want to play my dragonknight are go all into stamina and hope I can block and dodge when I really need to but this option severely gimps what little damage I was already doing. Or I could pick up my staff, go more points into magic and join the stick and skirt crowd as a mage.

Do I feel entitled? No. I just want to be able to do my role as a tank.

Wycks

Because a majika NB's now has infinite cloak, which can reset a fight, so there is no reason to spec stamina anymore.

The only people that complain about infinite dodge roll are beginners who don't understand the game.

Combating dodge roll and block in PvP should have been left up to counter skills and not a blanket nerf. For example flame whip and concealed weapon used to ignore dodge rolling, maybe add fear to the mix and some that ignore or hurt blocking (fear was already a solid counter).

But that would take skill, which the majority of the player base seems to lack.

RizaHawkeye

Truewan wrote: »

I have two classes, Templar and Nightblade, both of them are stamina DPS.

The templar still uses sword and board in PvP. The Night blade uses duel wield, both use the bow as the second choice.

Now that is out of the way... there was nothing more annoying then seeing someone permanently block and infinite roll dodge, as a stamina player. Yes, I could do it, in fact I 'had' to do it to compete vs these other roll dodgers.

I don't know anyone - maybe they're out there - who wants permanent blocking and infinite roll dodge. And I've never had it in my game, maybe because my stamina builds are using stamina in their attacks and not relying on magicka attacks.

Permablocking needs to be stopped. But an hour in PVP today clearly demonstrated it hasn't been. What has happened is this particular tactic is now only available to a few players with massive amounts of stamina.

So the solution adopted by Zenimax is a fail.

Truewan wrote: »

Roll dodge isn't even historically accurate as a means of escape - it was a waste of time and people would cut you midway through the dodge.

And shooting someone in the back with a magical chain, arrows that never, ever miss (even if you point several degrees away from your target), slashing someone in the face with a magical burning claw that you produce out of nowhere and the ability to speed away from danger faster than, well, light travels are .... what? Circus tricks?

Nothing in this game is historically accurate. Nothing.

Ratbert

Don't worry us templar healers got you covered!

OdinForge

Spamming magical damage shields/heals and bolt escape isn't "historically accurate" either. It's common to see dodge/dash in action games as a form of defense (Dark Souls, Smash Bros etc). And even if spammed to a degree, it's not uncommon is the world of gaming.

Before 1.6 stamina builds were non-existent, limited to snipe gankers and/or the handful of us players with ragtag ghetto sustain builds. Permadodge was virtually unavailable before 1.6 due to drinks not being as good as stat food, and softcaps that limited our ability to get endless sustain (and no champion system). And this is all part of the reason stamina builds were simply not viable for competitive PvP, and why everyone ran FoTM light armor / magicka builds.

^ This doesn't take into consideration other issues like not having stamina based class skills. And other stamina based skills being extremely lackluster.

"Permadodge" was the biggest reason sustain stamina builds became viable for most classes. Any class with 2500+ stamina regen could achieve this, not limited to the NB class. NB is the one class that can actually drop stamina regen thanks to things like cloak. Stamina builds didn't/don't generally have access to important survival skills, cleansing abilities, healing abilities, damage shields. With softcaps heavy armor was pointless for stamina DPS, the sustain simply wasn't possible. Sustainable dodge was the answer for stamina builds to survive, and now that it's gone everyone will switch to heavy armor. Since heavy armor has the room to breath and the mitigation, softcap removal and damage reduction push this far above medium armor for better or worse.

Psychobunni

Truewan wrote: »

I have two classes, Templar and Nightblade, both of them are stamina DPS.

The templar still uses sword and board in PvP. The Night blade uses duel wield, both use the bow as the second choice.

Now that is out of the way... there was nothing more annoying then seeing someone permanently block and infinite roll dodge, as a stamina player. Yes, I could do it, in fact I 'had' to do it to compete vs these other roll dodgers.

I cannot express how happy I was to see this playstyle no longer possible, indeed, I've outright raged quit because stamina nightblades would infinite roll dodge and DK's would permanently block. I immediately notice a difference, in that PvP is no longer the gimmicky mess that it once was.

Sure, you have to take damage, but you've gained survivability through the damage nerf in PvP. I haven't heard one good thing about this change. I don't die as often and frankly if 10 people are wailing on you, you should not be able to defeat them through infinite roll dodge.

Roll dodge isn't even historically accurate as a means of escape - it was a waste of time and people would cut you midway through the dodge. The fact that some people would dodge over as a means of escape, well, you should not be able to escape, even I have issues with nightblade cloak being spammable and makes you competely invisible, AND removes dots, but that's another topic.

To sum it up, we're not bad, we're just not overpowered anymore and people think that not being overpowered means they are bad. I just wanted to give you another perspective on this topic, one I feel many people have not considered in their rants about the so called 'massive nerf' to stamina builds. My hope is that these knee jerk reactions threads will go away, preferably with an arrow through them.

So you don't play tank or PVE as a tank, so....in short you really have no idea how this nerf may have directly impacted those players from a playing perspective?

*My hope* is that all those PVE side, answer by unsubbing (if they are even), scream louder than all the whining that brought this on and don't give up until it's fixed.....and ultimately ZOS realizes how many players they keep running away from the game by this stupid PVE/PVP marriage and learns to separate the two as they should be.

Wishes in one hand.....

Tholian1

More PvP whining. You do realize many don't even PvP and got hammered with these changes. Right?

robkrush

Ratbert wrote: »

Don't worry us templar healers got you covered!

Gimmie shards!

Thanks man.

MrGrimey

How do you expect medium armor wearers to survive? With the small HOTs from rally and vigor?

Light armor can shield, teleport, cloak and heal, heavy armor has tons of mitigation and medium armor HAD dodge rolling, but now that it's nerfed, how do we survive while sustaining our damage?

riverdragon72

I don't perma block, I don't perma roll, I like(d) to USE my DK, so screw PVP, and screw all the people who came up with this stamina nerf. This game has devolved so many times it's not even remotely humerous anymore.

Preyfar

As a stamina user it doesn't bother me. I also like the fact "Dodge Fatigue" shows up on your debuffs, too.

k2blader

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

I've always been confused by this too. I'm guessing it means they always held block while casting? If so that's extremely cheesy and did need to be fixed.

AfkNinja

Perma dodge may have needed looking at, perma block too but I hate that they are penalizing skillful play so hard. What's the point of having better reactions than your opponent now? Nothing, you just spam your highest dps move.

Personofsecrets

WHY DO PEOPLE FEEL ENTITLED???!? PEOPLE CANT EVEN DO THOSE THINGS IN REAL LIFE!!!

Personofsecrets

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

Every day of permablocking was just another struggle to stay awake. I was so board... so, so, very board. Thank you for saving me zos.

Jennifur_Vultee

k2blader wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

I've always been confused by this too. I'm guessing it means they always held block while casting? If so that's extremely cheesy and did need to be fixed.

Yes, it needed to be fixed...by not allowing casting while blocking, you either block or cast not both at the same time. However, since the combat dev team apparently can't figure out that bit of rocket science we get zero stamina regen while blocking instead. See Zenimax its easy, the way to stop people permanently holding block and casting is to make it so they have to choose either blocking or casting but not both at the same time. Or was that too much effort or simply beyond the skill level of your lead combat designer?

Valn

Truewan wrote: »

Now that is out of the way... there was nothing more annoying then seeing someone permanently block and infinite roll dodge, as a stamina player. Yes, I could do it, in fact I 'had' to do it to compete vs these other roll dodgers.

I cannot express how happy I was to see this playstyle no longer possible, indeed, I've outright raged quit because stamina nightblades would infinite roll dodge and DK's would permanently block.

Because you can totally deal high damage when blocking and roll dodging.

Sure, nerfing the dodge roll is fine, but completely destroying an entire playstyle with one patch? Not fine.

If you're blocking, you're already at a disadvantage: You're not doing any damage, you can't move as fast. And now ZOS have broken the stamina tank playstyle. Tanking is meant to be about taking the damage, it's meant to be about taunting. That's what a tank does.

Now it's pretty difficult to do your job as a full stamina tank when you're constantly running away from the boss just to regain stamina, desperately waiting to get that taunt in before running away like a chicken.

They've completely nerfed tanking in this game.

Master_Kas

MrGrimey wrote: »

How do you expect medium armor wearers to survive? With the small HOTs from rally and vigor?

Light armor can shield, teleport, cloak and heal, heavy armor has tons of mitigation and medium armor HAD dodge rolling, but now that it's nerfed, how do we survive while sustaining our damage?

Dont even try mate. Dodgerolling is annoying but not shieldspam xD

I can nearly use cloak as much as I can dodgeroll on a stamina build with 7 medium armor.
A magicka skill. Working as intended.

robkrush

Entitled is a token word people use to imply negativity these days. ZOS nuked our builds and our playstyle of course we are miffed. But people are going to find out that lots of stuff got nuked not just dodge rolling and permablocking. Some people will adapt, some people won't make it, and some people will ruin the whole game for themselves worrying about things they can't change. Life goes on.

Kupoking

Last patch on my stam dk and templar, I could get two shot easily if I wouldnt have roll dodge.

I was actualoy more squishy than a sorc/templar magika glass cannon.

Egonieser

Dodgerolling and permablocking is still pretty much what i see in PvP, although not as much, but those high ranking players that were impossible to kill are still impossible to kill and still sit in their thrones.
However now i can at least kill a DK within a 10 minute window, but most of the times i still don't bother with them. Nightblades still hit *** hard even if they can't permanently rolldodge, they can rolldodge enough to get my hardest hitting skills mitigated and they still hit me hard enough to kill me.
Now it actually takes more skill to play in pvp, TTK is significantly increased so you can plot a strategy on the fly and analyze what your opponents weakness is rather than just outright avoiding them because you know they are untouchable... Or being killed by 1 lethal arrow... Or faced with a untouchable bunnyblade that negates all damage everytime and then continues to rofldodge to other side of Cyrodiil.

I'm actually happy about my sorcs shield nerf and streak nerf and damage nerf and magicka nerf...as it forced me to try a different approach, a new build and entirely different perspective and playstyle and it has made me a lot more deadly than i was before all the nerfs, because now i am a lot more cautious, i play more offensively, and it overall made me a better player. Yes those nerfs made my character weaker, which in turn made me think more which actually buffed me as it forced my hand.

Sorry for those affected in PvE though, ZoS should really learn to seperate PvP from PvE. As for PvP whiners... Suck it up, adapt and learn or lay down and die, and don't forget to throw a moan post on forums eh?

gard

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

I've always been confused by this too. I'm guessing it means they always held block while casting? If so that's extremely cheesy and did need to be fixed.

Yes, it needed to be fixed...by not allowing casting while blocking, you either block or cast not both at the same time. However, since the combat dev team apparently can't figure out that bit of rocket science we get zero stamina regen while blocking instead. See Zenimax its easy, the way to stop people permanently holding block and casting is to make it so they have to choose either blocking or casting but not both at the same time. Or was that too much effort or simply beyond the skill level of your lead combat designer?

They literally could have cut and pasted the code they used to grey out the hotbar while sprint is pressed.

RizaHawkeye

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

I never understood the perma-block character. That would seem awfully boring.. Just block?

I've always been confused by this too. I'm guessing it means they always held block while casting? If so that's extremely cheesy and did need to be fixed.

Yes, it needed to be fixed...by not allowing casting while blocking, you either block or cast not both at the same time. However, since the combat dev team apparently can't figure out that bit of rocket science we get zero stamina regen while blocking instead. See Zenimax its easy, the way to stop people permanently holding block and casting is to make it so they have to choose either blocking or casting but not both at the same time. Or was that too much effort or simply beyond the skill level of your lead combat designer?

This makes a lot of sense to me. When I swing my weapon or cast a spell, I should become vulnerable? Right? Isn't this obvious?

Really, if this is the way it's going to work with stamina, then there should be magicka/health freezes as well. Maybe magicka should stop generating while your casting spells. Maybe health should never regenerate - a player should have to use potions or their magicka to regenerate. People who claim they want a skill based fight would certainly have one then.

And let me be clear: I don't see this as a pvp/pve issue. I have been arguing since I got here that PVE should be harder. And I could care less if I die in PVP. Seriously, I play Dark Souls ... on a PC ... with a keyboard and a mouse. I'm so used to dying by now. All the time.

But singling out a single attribute and hitting it with a 0 regen to solve a problem that's part of your original game design is just poor problem solving married to a lack of creativity.

And here's something else Zenimax (now that my anger is up), when you force a skill respec on us because you just nerfed over a dozen skills and one major attribute, give us our attributed points back, too. Those of us that invested heavily in stamina points now have to pay to redistribute those points to make our "magicka" builds work.

To paraphrase Three Dog: "Not cool, Zenimax, not cool."

Wing

we don't nessecerily want perma dodge roll and blocking.

however we would like our regen to work like everyone else's

also I would ask why magicka users feel entitled to permanent shields / healing? as well as oh I don't know the majority of class skills being magicka?

Pangnirtung

likelolwhat wrote: »

I still think the stamina nerf should have been PvP only, but you do raise a point.

It would be nice if there could be a different rule set for PVE and PVP skill, etc.

So much of the nerfing and balancing that has been done over the past year has been because of an exploit or because a class is over powered.

Wishful thinking.