Give us our Dual Wield! (Improve Dual Wield thread)

GreenSoup2HoT

Hello Eso Community. I'm here to give you my take on Duel Wield in it's current state and what i think need's to be done to let us nightblade's use the weapon class we all know and love... Dual Wield.

This post will be catered to my experience as a stamina Nightblade and how these two weapon classes effect me. This post will also relate to my PvP experience with these skill line's. Anyone who has tried to use Dual Wield and Bow may also have the same issue's im about to discuss.

The issue's:

1: In update 1.6, Duel Wield is inferior to Two handed. Two hand has better sustained healing, better access to Major Brutality and better weapon class passive support.

2: Dual Wield abilities lack in damage and effectiveness (Whirling Blade's excluded). Dual Wield Passive are also very lack luster because of this.



Issue number one has already been resolved in update 1.7. Vigor will be available for anyone with level 5 assault, this is a great change for stamina user's. Now all duel wield needed was a source of Major Brutality. Zos has now given Hidden Blade Major Brutality, this was to try and bring Hidden Blade more in line with Two hand's Momentum, ill get more into this below.

So now as a Stamina Nightblade i was given three option's:

-Drop my Bow to use 2 DW bar's and utilize Flying Blade with Major Brutality
-Keep Momentum with 2H for easy access of Major Brutality
-Spend a whole lot of gold/time farming for Major Brutality Potion's.

I dunno about you but i would rather not have to do any of these 3 option's. So i wont and i'll have to deal with using a weapon class i like and have 20% less damage with inferior weapon class passive's to boot.

Here are the difference's between the two weapon class passive's.

Dual Wield and Two hand Passive's.

DW passive's
-Increases damage with Dual Wield abilities by 20% against enemies under 25% Health.
-Increases Weapon Damage by 6% of off-hand weapon's Damage.
-Reduces the cost of Dual Wield abilities by 20%.
-15% damage bonus when attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented, or silenced enemies.(DW skill's only +light/heavy attack''s)
-Each axe equipped gives your weapon attacks a 50% chance to bleed enemies for [x] Physical Damage over 6 seconds.
-Each mace equipped allows your weapon attacks to ignore 10% of an enemy's Physical Resistance.
-Each sword equipped increases the damage of your weapon attacks by 2.5%.
-Each dagger equipped increases your Weapon Critical rating. (by 5%)

Two Hand Passive's
-Allows your standard attacks to hit more than one target. Both Light and Heavy Attacks damage up to 2 nearby enemies for 25% of the damage inflicted to the primary target.
-Reduces the cost of Two-Handed abilities by 20%.
-Gives you a 10% damage bonus on the next attack after a fully charged heavy attack.
-Boosts your Stamina Recovery by 30% for 10 seconds after killing a target.
-Two handed swords deal 5% extra damage.
-Two handed axes deal 2[x] Physical Damage extra bleeding damage over 6 seconds.
-Two handed maces ignore 20% of your target's Armor.

Here are the passive's that work for each weapon class, without utilizing any weapon class abilities for damage. Since your bar as a nightblade usually use's Surprise attack and Ambush for damage.

DW Passive's
-Increases Weapon Damage by 6% of off-hand weapon's Damage.

-15% damage bonus when attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented, or silenced enemies with your light/heavy attack's.

-Each axe equipped gives your weapon attacks a 50% chance to bleed enemies for [x] Physical Damage over 6 seconds.
-Each mace equipped allows your weapon attacks to ignore 10% of an enemy's Physical Resistance.
-Each sword equipped increases the damage of your weapon attacks by 2.5%.
-Each dagger equipped increases your Weapon Critical rating. (by 5%)

Two Hand Passive's
-Allows your standard attacks to hit more than one target. Both Light and Heavy Attacks damage up to 2 nearby enemies for 25% of the damage inflicted to the primary target.

-Gives you a 10% damage bonus on the next attack after a fully charged heavy attack.

-Boosts your Stamina Recovery by 30% for 10 seconds after killing a target.

-Two handed swords deal 5% extra damage.
-Two handed axes deal 2[x] Physical Damage extra bleeding damage over 6 seconds.
-Two handed maces ignore 20% of your target's Armor.

It's clear you are loosing on weapon class passive's as a nightblade if you use DW over 2H without using any weapon class ability's.

Even if you were to use DW abilities they are still very bad (except steel tornado).

-Twin slashes DoT can be removed by a simple block. (Not sure if intended or true)
-Flurry leave's you open, channel time is to long and doesn't do enough damage.
-Blade Cloak has to short of a duration and is beat out by Blur/Double Take
-Flying Blade Useless if you use a Bow.

-Steel Tornado. The only saving grace of the dual wield skill line. Great AoE but low damage after 1.7 update.
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So i'm not sure if i have proven my point. Dual Wield right now is a complete disaster for nightblade's and is a shame the sneaky ninja gank class cannot use it without gimping our self's, we are forced to use some clunky 2H to max the potential of our class.

I'm not here to say anyone can't use DW, i'm just pointing out the disadvantage's. I would love dual wield to become more viable but sadly they just plain suck.

What i would do to fix Duel Wield?

Skill change's:

1: Twin Slashes: I have heard once applied to someone in pvp, once they block the bleed is taken off. Need confirmation if this is true. If this is the case, this should not happen. The skill however is in a good place.


2: Decrease the channel time of Flurry to 1 second and increase the damage. There is no point using Flurry over Surprise Attack at the moment and that should change.

(People may point out class ability's are better and i don't think this should be the case. All player's have access to this ability, a buff would not hurt. This will just encourage different play style's instead of cookie cutter build's forced to use Surprise attack if you use Dual Wield.)


3: Blade Cloak - Personally the skill is fine, just the duration is very short. This skill should of received the Major Brutality Buff instead of hidden blade

I wouldn't mind a morph that heal's for the damage blade cloak does. Making this skill more in line with Momentum.


4: Hidden Blade: The skill was great before they nerfed the damage and put in Major Brutality. You are forcing player's to use this as an opener to get the most out of the Major Brutality.

(Rally would still be the better opinion since you can use your biggest hitting skill or ultimate from stealth with increased damage)

This ability should proc Mangle instead. That would make thing's interesting.

Passive Change's

Most of the duel wield passive's relie on dual wield abilities. Since a lot of these abilities remain ineffective, you will need to buff the skill's to be more useful or give more to the passive's.

Example 1: Hitting an enemy from stealth with a dual wield abilities grant's them Major Endurance/Heroism/Force, something!

Example 2: You could possibly include Snare's into the Ruffian passive. Hit them with Hidden Blade/Rending Slashes and now you will have more damage from your passive while using dual wield abilities. Which give's more incentive to use Dual Wield Abilities.

What i would change from Two Hand to make thing's more even?

Make Momentum a fighter's guild skill: This way everyone has access to a self heal and Major Brutality. You can now choose your weapon of choice without being sucked into what's best.

To get away with above all you need to do is invent some new Two Handed ability. I personally think a 2 hand AoE knockdown ability would be perfect.

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Well these are my thought's. Feedback below!

Jeckll

My feedback: While I understand where you come from, you also have to consider that while 2h in 1.6 is a superior choice for most people in PvP, DW outpreforms 2h in PvE for every single class. So any buffs you apply to DW will hurt 2h even more in PvE.

Stamina Users in Update 7 have a wide range of possibilies. Solid choices are
1h/s + 2h
1h/s + dw
dw + 2h
dw + dw
2h + bow

With all those choices, you dont have to sacrifice Major Brutality. The only combo that's not that great is bow + dw because flying blade is a range ability already so the bow is kind of useless. I guess that's the whole point of your post. You want to go bow + dw but you realise it's not the best combination, right?

I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

GreenSoup2HoT

Jeckll wrote: »

With all those choices, you dont have to sacrifice Major Brutality. The only combo that's not that great is bow + dw because flying blade is a range ability already so the bow is kind of useless. I guess that's the whole point of your post. You want to go bow + dw but you realise it's not the best combination, right?

I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

Very good feedback! Since im solely a PvP player i underestimated DW's potential.

You are correct. DW + Bow user's get it bad. I also know there is a large player base of nightblade's who try to utilize this combo and are effected by the disadvantage's without really realizing it.

It's not a total disaster, i just feel some thing should be done to make it more in line with other combination's. Flying Blade receiving Major Brutality was a disaster for me because it doesn't fix all the Dual Wield / Bow user's problem's. (no heal's or Major Brut / Vigor 1.7 help's)
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Also one of my suggestion's could grant 2 hand user's another skill to possibly help them in PvE.
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If anything were to be done to DW, i would want Flurry to get a big buff. I want it to be on par with wrecking blow and Surprise Attack. Give it more damage or reduce the channel time would help a lot.

Jeckll

I discussed this topic several times already so I'm kind of in the matter

You know some issues are already adressed in update 7 (lack of healing, lack of Major Brutality). There were threads already suggesting to give Blade Cloak the Major Brutality buff so DW/Bow Users can get Major Brutality for their Opener. But I see no issue in giving 2h this unique option. Because Rally is actually the only skill that makes you want to use 2h as a Nightblade as soon as Vigor is available to everyone. You could argue Executoner but the importance of finishers in PvP is a discussion for another day...let's just say you can life without it.

DW gives you more Weapon Damage and an extra Setbonus, you have access to the best AoE ability AND a range skill without having to use bow. All DW abilities have build-in executes and with Update 7, the strongest Single Target DPS skill (also snares) of the Skilline gets Major Brutality (that's why they had to nerf the damage).

2h on the other hand now only gives you the benefit of a stronger Opener, so only gank-oriented builds to benefit from that. You also get an Instant Heal on demand (double tab Rally). Rally's cost has been increased by 35% even in Update 7.

So for a Nightblade specificly, who doesnt need Crit Rush and has an alternative to Executoner, DW already has a ton of benefits over 2h and if you give dw the option to use Major Brutality for the opener as well, RIP 2H.

capcody

i use dualweild as my primary dps in pvp. and yes i do it on my dk. flurry ( rapid strikes ) the dps is insain. well for my build and player preference. although if i must add. the dual weild tree needs a stun or a knock back of somesorts

RavenSworn

One of the ideas that was running in my head was to let dual wield be a debuffer of sorts. Basically letting it to proc maim, fracture, breach and possibly a new debuff which is disarm, taking away weapon and spell Power. This will allow dw to have a different set of utility, aside from two handers.

Imo, making these two sets similar does not help in creating diversity in builds and this would complement class skills really well. This will also act as a counter check to two hander users, as even with major brutality and savagery up, you essentially are able to minimise the damage thats done with maim and disarm.

Another change, which is what I have been putting out all these while is to allow resistance to bleeds, rather than immunity for world mobs. This will allow twin slashes to keep up that heals while being viable in questing.

Twin slashes: deals x damage, and y damage over z time.
1) Rending slashes: deals x damage, reducing armor and spell resistance (fracture and breach) by z time.
2) blood craze: no change if the changes to bleed immunity occurs, if not heals for x damage done, and heals for y damage over z time.

Flurry: six consecutive strikes, with each strike being able to proc critical strike and damage.
1) Rapid Strikes: each strike increases critical damage to a max of x amt and also increase damage by 1%
2) Blinding flurry: the first strike will cause minor maim, with each successful strike increasing its duration by 1sec.

Whirlwind: no changes
1) whirling blades: no changes
2) steel tornado: no changes

Blade cloak: when active, reduces aoe and melee attacks by 20%. Periodically hit an enemy with a flying dagger for x damage.
1) quick cloak: gives major expedition and no periodic damage. At end of lessened duration, cloak deals x damage to all enemies around the player.
2) deadly cloak: normal duration and effect. The periodic damage by dagger has increased critical damage, critical strike and increased damage.

Hidden blade: no changes
1) shrouded daggers: no changes
2) flying dagger: fires a high damage dagger to the enemy, damaging and disarming them ( removing or greatly reducing their weapon and spell damage) for z time.

This will I think alleviate the imbalance between these two melee weapons. It doesnt affect sword and board, as that is primarily blocking bonuses and damage mitigation, rather than purely debuffing. But this will allow dw to be complemented by all of the classes, rather than be a support weapon.

Swindy

Jeckll wrote: »

M
I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

My question simply refers to this statement...what do you use as the 1-1 massacre instead, assuming stealth has been missed or magicka low as is usually my case with dolmen & delve bosses?

Edit: Answered below thanks.

GreenSoup2HoT

Jeckll wrote: »

You know some issues are already adressed in update 7 (lack of healing, lack of Major Brutality). There were threads already suggesting to give Blade Cloak the Major Brutality buff so DW/Bow Users can get Major Brutality for their Opener. But I see no issue in giving 2h this unique option. Because Rally is actually the only skill that makes you want to use 2h as a Nightblade as soon as Vigor is available to everyone. You could argue Executoner but the importance of finishers in PvP is a discussion for another day...let's just say you can life without it.

I guess only DW/Bow will be without Major Brutality. I don't think they will change Hidden Blade. My play style will just have to work without Major Brut.

DW gives you more Weapon Damage and an extra Setbonus, you have access to the best AoE ability AND a range skill without having to use bow. All DW abilities have build-in executes and with Update 7, the strongest Single Target DPS skill (also snares) of the Skilline gets Major Brutality (that's why they had to nerf the damage).

Even though DW has plenty of versatility, most nightblade's will still ignore every skill except Steel Tornado and Flying Blade.

2h on the other hand now only gives you the benefit of a stronger Opener, so only gank-oriented builds to benefit from that. You also get an Instant Heal on demand (double tab Rally). Rally's cost has been increased by 35% even in Update 7.

So for a Nightblade specifically, who doesn't need Crit Rush and has an alternative to Executoner, DW already has a ton of benefits over 2h and if you give dw the option to use Major Brutality for the opener as well, RIP 2H.

2h will still have Rally/Vigor stack (if we let 2h keep rally) with the superior weapon class passive's that don't need weapon class ability's.

GreenSoup2HoT

Jeckll wrote: »

I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

This is what bug's me.

You say you don't use Rapid Strike's because you have a better stamina based ability. The ability being Surprise Attack or Wrecking Blow. Why should Flurry get the short end of the stick? Why can't Flurry be a viable option.

It may be personal preference but i rarely see any nb's use it because it's worse then something they have access to.

I would much rather people be leaning to all 3 of these abilities and not know what to choose, you know what i mean?

Jeckll

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

This is what bug's me.

You say you don't use Rapid Strike's because you have a better stamina based ability. The ability being Surprise Attack or Wrecking Blow. Why should Flurry get the short end of the stick? Why can't Flurry be a viable option.

It may be personal preference but i rarely see any nb's use it because it's worse then something they have access to.

I would much rather people be leaning to all 3 of these abilities and not know what to choose, you know what i mean?

I ment Surprise Attack but all those abilities have their benefits (while yes, SA is the "best" overall):

Rapid Strikes does good DPS in general and the Stamina Costs are very low. You can basicly spam that forever without Champion Points or Cost Reduction Glyphs. For people with Stamina issues and in general while leveling it's a great ability. It's also nice for encounters with Single Target and AoE components...because you can save up Stamina while Single Target DPSing and have full Stamina for AoE (Steel Tornado is costy).

Wrecking Blow does great burst damage and has a build-in CC ability. It's also okay for DPS, just not the best option. Also, it cost quite a bit of Stamina and has a cast time which makes it easier to avoid in PvP. It also gives Empower. It's great for ganking in Cyrodiil and for leveling as you can constantly stun targets.

Surprise Attack does great DPS, is an instant cast, has a build in Armor Debuff and gives you Major Armor and Spell Resistance buffs. It also increases your HP by 2% for sloting it. But it's costy and you need some sort of Stamina Management to sustain. It's clearly the best Stamina ability available to Nightblades, much like Biting jabs is the best for Stamina Templar.

Reeko

Jeckll wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

I think DW is in a good state overall. I use all skills in some situations except Rapid Strikes because I have access to a better stamina based class ability. Calling it a destater is kind of far fetched.

This is what bug's me.

You say you don't use Rapid Strike's because you have a better stamina based ability. The ability being Surprise Attack or Wrecking Blow. Why should Flurry get the short end of the stick? Why can't Flurry be a viable option.

It may be personal preference but i rarely see any nb's use it because it's worse then something they have access to.

I would much rather people be leaning to all 3 of these abilities and not know what to choose, you know what i mean?

I ment Surprise Attack but all those abilities have their benefits (while yes, SA is the "best" overall):

Rapid Strikes does good DPS in general and the Stamina Costs are very low. You can basicly spam that forever without Champion Points or Cost Reduction Glyphs. For people with Stamina issues and in general while leveling it's a great ability. It's also nice for encounters with Single Target and AoE components...because you can save up Stamina while Single Target DPSing and have full Stamina for AoE (Steel Tornado is costy).

Wrecking Blow does great burst damage and has a build-in CC ability. It's also okay for DPS, just not the best option. Also, it cost quite a bit of Stamina and has a cast time which makes it easier to avoid in PvP. It also gives Empower. It's great for ganking in Cyrodiil and for leveling as you can constantly stun targets.

Surprise Attack does great DPS, is an instant cast, has a build in Armor Debuff and gives you Major Armor and Spell Resistance buffs. It also increases your HP by 2% for sloting it. But it's costy and you need some sort of Stamina Management to sustain. It's clearly the best Stamina ability available to Nightblades, much like Biting jabs is the best for Stamina Templar.

This guy knows what he is talking about.

hardcore_gmr

another thread where a player demands everything and is willing to give nothing. BTW...next patch Dual Wield is getting the major brutality buff from hidden blade...whether or not you choose to use this skill or not is up to you, but you lose the right to complain about not having access to it if you choose to not use the skills that are given to you.

Mojmir

i think dual wield should have a chance to break weapons,disarm or have some kind of bonus fighting a 2 hander. honestly, ever use a pair of sai's?

RavenSworn

Mojmir wrote: »

i think dual wield should have a chance to break weapons,disarm or have some kind of bonus fighting a 2 hander. honestly, ever use a pair of sai's?

Have DW deal debuffs and disarms imo. Had a few ideas up in the thread.

GreenSoup2HoT

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

another thread where a player demands everything and is willing to give nothing. BTW...next patch Dual Wield is getting the major brutality buff from hidden blade...whether or not you choose to use this skill or not is up to you, but you lose the right to complain about not having access to it if you choose to not use the skills that are given to you.

I'm entitled to my own opinion and i'm giving Zos my own feedback.

I'm also aloud to complain about these change's because there is a vast majority of player's this change has no effect on. Many would agree that Flying Blade would of been better off without the damage nerf and major brutality. Another skill like Blade Cloak would of made much more sense.

You also have no right to say anyone can't complain. Anybody on the forum's can complain or thank Zos for what they do.

Emma_Overload

The biggest issue for DW, in my opinion, is the fact that Flurry doesn't proc anything because it's a DOT. Flurry is not a "set and forget" spell, so there's no reason it should be classifed as a DOT. Each strike should have ALL the benefits of a distinct attack.

The second biggest issue is that Flurry is so long, you get knocked on your ass all the time by attacks you couldn't block because you were stuck in an animation. Flurry would be better if it was only 1 or 1.1 seconds like Biting Jabs.

TL;DR: @ZOS please fix FLURRY!

kalimar44

I'm a dk that dw with 1 bar, and 2h with bar 2. Between both I do a lot of dam either in a group or solo.

Jar_Ek

Just for information (as I am time limited atm):


http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168267/can-dual-wield-be-made-to-work#latest
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2148776/#Comment_2148776