Champion Points - Idea

willymchilybily

overview
Im still kind of new, so if this is a terrible idea feel free to tell me. but the current champion point[CP] system gets a lot of disliking in the pvp community of ESO because the inequality between high CP and low CP driving people to farm to be competitive. Now I'm not sure i fully understand the system, but i see they scale at a diminishing return rate.

That is if we get technical Y=X^0.7 (i will refer to the 0.7 as the Scaler)
Y= %
X=CP

This is of course not universal to all CP tree options some get a bit more? some get a bit less. This coupled with what i believe is the cap for a single point on a CP consellation (100) means you can get 100^0.7= 25% buff to some skills. This seems to apply to majority of the CP skills i invest in anyway. and for this example its far easier if we pretend this is universally true even if it isnt.

aka lets assume

100CP = 25%
50CP = 15.5%
10CP = 5%
1CP = 1%

very roughly this is the trend it follows. This means if i had 10CP (5% buff) some one would need 27CP(10%) to get double the buffing i get. so very roughly we can say someone with 3 times as many CP as you is going to have a notable advantage.

The idea
The idea would be to dampen their effectiveness in this capacity. That is to say if they scaled at Y=X^0.5 suddenly those 100CP only give a 10% buff, and 25CP give a 5% buff. this reduces the effectiveness of the CP but also reduces the gap. Now im not saying this is the right value for the scaler, its just an example.

Now this small change makes CP points gaps less noticble at all levels, but does not weaken them as a whole because having high CP still gives you alot of passive ability options in addition to still being more buffed than someone who doesnt have very many. its just not so noticeable in the straight stats, you still have an advantage but the advantage is less for raw stats but just as good for those passive ability mile stones.


Negatives:

Such diminishing returns will encourage people to spread the CPs out a lot more, this in turn will make everyone very similar depending on class and if stamina or magicka based

people who earned their CP may feel cheated, they should not because they will see maybe a 15% drop at most in any one skill if these value are even used and passives are still some of the best bonuses imo from the CP consellations

it might not even help that much, because getting the balance between too much nerf and not enough is a fine line and it may not actually reduce the disadvantage between high and low CP all that much

Positives

It would also help with some of the more common complaints. Sorcs stacking huge shields, stamina users dodge rolling for days, heavy armour being useless because of the people stacking over penetration and so on.

it is (assuming they coded the CP system well) ever so easy to change and tweak value to find a balance.

it would create less of a barrier for pvp players rocking low CP points without needing dedicated servers running CP point free etc.

one final twist i would add is one other possibility if you did this would be to raise the limit on CP assignments above 100. by making it more constrained on returns but larger potential caps you force people to really chose what it is better to put their points into. using the 0.5 scaler you can put 400 points into one option to get a 20% buff, vs 100 points into 4 options to get 10% in each. really make them chose how to spend their points. and in this way they can chose to lose out on some passives and some other buffs just for that 10% more into whatever they are after. also id suggest in future DLC you may have some consellations with say a 300 CP passive etc to really make a person chose how they want to specialise their character and game play.

once again im not suggesting 0.5 scaler is ideal or suitable for every tree. its just the concept of reducing the effectiveness on CP and increasing the cap to make people chose between being a power house in one stat or getting more of the passives, whilst at the same time reducing the noticeable gap between high and low CP


please if you've read this far than i would certainly appreciate your feed back and your own views and suggestions. i only mention this because it seems to have been overlooked as an option from all discussions i have seen so far on CP. things like splitting CP in PVP and PVE and other convoluted suggestions, caps and so on just didnt seem like the optimal way to deal with CP and issues that come from them

gimpdrb14_ESO

tldr

starkerealm

gimpdrb14_ESO wrote: »

tldr

You didn't miss much. I skimmed it, and basically it's a description of how the system works now, only with slightly sharper scaling.

vamp_emily

I'm not very technical, but the simple solution would be to not allow CP to be shared between characters. Was there a reason why they did it this way?

When I create a new character, none of my skills that I leveled on another character get carried over to the new character, why is CP like this?

Ignore this post ( smiles ): I wanted to delete it, because I was just commenting about CP in non vet PvP. Where you have someone with allot of CP and nobody can kill them. I should have been commenting on the over all problem with CP, which I know nothing about.

willymchilybily

sigh i think i see where this thread is going....making a suggestion in the discussion thread, and nobody discusses the suggestion. first post is a troll....

Nevermind. least its out there now.

Leandor

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm not very technical, but the simple solution would be to not allow CP to be shared between characters. Was there a reason why they did it this way?

When I create a new character, none of my skills that I leveled on another character get carried over to the new character, why is CP like this?

Ignore this post ( smiles ): I wanted to delete it, because I was just commenting about CP in non vet PvP. Where you have someone with allot of CP and nobody can kill them. I should have been commenting on the over all problem with CP, which I know nothing about.

Doing that will not help to alleviate any imbalances due to CP. You can still use your one char to grind out millions of XP in short time.

The only result from it would be that (some/most/a significant number of) players are stuck with one char. Those would at the very least stop playing alts or even stop playing at all. Just imagine that you do not agree with the changes to the class you played and achieved x hundred CP on. Would you switch over, just to face the grind of acquiring those x hundred points again? Or would you just quit?

I do realize that some players would repeat the grind, but I am very sure a majority would not.

starkerealm

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm not very technical, but the simple solution would be to not allow CP to be shared between characters. Was there a reason why they did it this way?

It's to encourage the player to vary up their playstyle more. Any veteran character on your account can make progress for all of them. It's very minor, but you can jump on a nightblade, derp around in Craglorn, and the game doesn't punish you for neglecting your DK or Templar.

This is explicitly there to be friendly towards players who play on more than one character and bounce around between them.

In contrast to a normal MMO, where all of your endgame progression is character specific. Frequently to the point that if you want to play on a different character, you're actually punished for not progressing your main, because your time and energy spent on an alt is wasted for your main.

ESO is very alt friendly. It's part of why I find the absence of Character Slots in the Crown Store confusing, but that's a different topic entirely.

TequilaFire

OP good effort and suggestion, but my problem is as I have progressed and got more and more CP
it really has not made my character less killable or that much better at PvP .

Marginally yes, Uber no.

I think the we need to see how the next major update goes with the changes to PvP meta and campaign population changes work out.

starkerealm

willymchilybily wrote: »

sigh i think i see where this thread is going....making a suggestion in the discussion thread, and nobody discusses the suggestion. first post is a troll....

Nevermind. least its out there now.

The problem, and I'm going to lay this at the feet of you being new, is you're ascribing a lot of stuff to the Champion system that, ultimately, isn't it's fault.

The problem with things like over penetration has nothing to do with CP. It's a result of things like dual sharpend maces blowing through 75% of your physical resistance.

The shield stacking isn't, really a CP issue. You cap that at +25% for barriers. Which would make a mess, but it's that people are stacking their shields into the 48k range without CP, and then getting the extra 12k. It makes things worse, but it's not that system.

Also, right now, yes, people are encouraged to distribute the points as evenly as possible. Your first 10 points in a star will give you ~20% of it's final value. This is why people say the first 300 points are the most important. You're getting 20% of all the buffs in the system by that point.

From 300 to 1k is not, actually, a lot of power. It takes a lot of time to earn, but you're already sliding down the scale. From about 3k to 3600 it's nearly linear, but you're not really looking at these huge jumps, like people who haven't messed with the system seem to think.

Actually, the last real power jumps come when you're hitting 1080, and unlocking the last 120 point buffs.

But, people who don't know the system, or look at it, or have ever used it think they're getting destroyed in PvP because of the CP system, so it becomes a scapegoat for things like Macroing, penetration stacking, animation canceling, or shield stacking... without realizing that it's not the system at fault. Simply because, "it can't be my fault, so it must be this system over here that I'm aware of but don't fully understand."

willymchilybily

TequilaFire wrote: »

OP good effort and suggestion, but my problem is as I have progressed and got more and more CP
it really has not made my character less killable or that much better at PvP .

Marginally yes, Uber no.

I think the we need to see how the next major update goes with the changes to PvP meta and campaign population changes work out.

Thanks for giving feed back on the topic how many CP do you have as a by the by?

I am a console scrub with only have 40 or so CP total and i dont think console is so heavily affected. hence why i wanted to get other views.

I think you're right, maybe a suggestion a few months ago may have had some impact but zenimax have their solutions they are implementing to improve the gameplay for PVP. lets hope they work out.

Rune_Relic

I too cant see the point in changing every other system to fix the problem system.
I too have a problem with the uncapped power gap akin to just adding a multitude of VET Levels.
400,000xp per CP * 3600 / 1,000,000xp per Vet level = Grind Hell to reach level cap.

ZOS never believed people would think of 3600 CP as the next level cap.
They failed to realise even the grinding along the way makes you more powerful too regardless, without any cap to stop the gap developing.
So fastest full time Grinder = Winner.
They even pay people to play their account for them to grind CP 24/7.

They were warned. They never listened. Blinded by the new awesome shiny thing they made.
So they nerfed XP after XP to kill the grinders and destroyed the game for everyone else in the process.
They waste 100s of man hours modifying other systems rather than fix the flawed design and focus on new content.

BuggeX

The Problem with the CP System is overbuffing single skills.
So lets Assume im a Dumner DK, with a Firestaff and have 300 Cps.
i can Buff with CPs,

+15% Heavyattack from Staff
+15% Magick Penetration
+15% Firedmg / Magick dmg, depens wich will be applied to Staffs
+12% Crit (perk)
+15% Critdmg

So i as a DK have also Access to Molten Arament for a other +40% to heavy attacks.
Inferno for a other +12% Cirt
light armor for more crit and penetration
nirnhorned for more penetration

With the right Set this Build can onehit near anything in PVP if the hit crits
OK a sorc can ignore the hit cause of the 30k Shild.

The same can do a sorc with a proced cfrag
the same can do a nb with snipe/lethal from stealth

well dont know wath a Templer can do with CPs much.


I would say Buffing single Skills should be caped at max +50%
Lets say my heavy attack without a buff is able to do 10k Dmg. So the Maximal DMG i can Buff this skill is 15k

Lets say a heal is healing 10k without buffs, the maximal healing should be 15k and not, throught overbuffing with anything like critdmg, healing done and heal recive. to 30k

starkerealm

BuggeX wrote: »

The Problem with the CP System is overbuffing single skills.
So lets Assume im a Dumner DK, with a Firestaff and have 300 Cps.
i can Buff with CPs,

+15% Heavyattack from Staff
+15% Magick Penetration
+15% Firedmg / Magick dmg, depens wich will be applied to Staffs
+12% Crit (perk)
+15% Critdmg

So i as a DK have also Access to Molten Arament for a other +40% to heavy attacks.
Inferno for a other +12% Cirt
light armor for more crit and penetration
nirnhorned for more penetration

With the right Set this Build can onehit near anything in PVP if the hit crits
OK a sorc can ignore the hit cause of the 30k Shild.

The same can do a sorc with a proced cfrag
the same can do a nb with snipe/lethal from stealth

well dont know wath a Templer can do with CPs much.


I would say Buffing single Skills should be caped at max +50%
Lets say my heavy attack without a buff is able to do 10k Dmg. So the Maximal DMG i can Buff this skill is 15k

Lets say a heal is healing 10k without buffs, the maximal healing should be 15k and not, throught overbuffing with anything like critdmg, healing done and heal recive. to 30k

Statistically speaking, that's actually one of the weakest ways to distribute 300 CP. I mean, you can go on the test server right now, roll up a VR16 template, get 300CP, and go try that out in the IC. It's not going to do what you want it to.

Kuroinu

Since most have no problems with the CP system for PvE and it's only the PvP that's seeing major issues. I'd prefer it if the Champion System had a split value for every enhancement that boosts any form of damage taken and damage dealt. To put it simply, one value for Monsters/A.I. targets and another value that's scaled down for Player targets.

starkerealm

Well, a non-CP campaign is coming... someday. So that should address the complaints of players who think CP is why they're being murdered. And they can go back to blaming the players in hypothetical VR16 gold gear.

willymchilybily

BuggeX wrote: »

The Problem with the CP System is overbuffing single skills.
So lets Assume im a Dumner DK, with a Firestaff and have 300 Cps.
i can Buff with CPs,

+15% Heavyattack from Staff
+15% Magick Penetration
+15% Firedmg / Magick dmg, depens wich will be applied to Staffs
+12% Crit (perk)
+15% Critdmg

So i as a DK have also Access to Molten Arament for a other +40% to heavy attacks.
Inferno for a other +12% Cirt
light armor for more crit and penetration
nirnhorned for more penetration

With the right Set this Build can onehit near anything in PVP if the hit crits
OK a sorc can ignore the hit cause of the 30k Shild.

The same can do a sorc with a proced cfrag
the same can do a nb with snipe/lethal from stealth

well dont know wath a Templer can do with CPs much.


I would say Buffing single Skills should be caped at max +50%
Lets say my heavy attack without a buff is able to do 10k Dmg. So the Maximal DMG i can Buff this skill is 15k

Lets say a heal is healing 10k without buffs, the maximal healing should be 15k and not, throught overbuffing with anything like critdmg, healing done and heal recive. to 30k

in theory...but maybe not the best example.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/155118/bug-molten-weapons-not-working-for-staffs

but i take your point, but on the flip side it would be much more complex to track, how do you know if you are at the cap or not maybe putting some points into extra flame damage isnt improving my damage of searing strike because i have the 3% damage passive from searing heat, but maybe it is helping the other flame based skills.

also there is a natural cap. you can only put 100 Points into CP and its not like they were not aware these effects would stack. if there is a problem with the effects stacking surely they should address that by addressing which tree the skills fall into (which i think they do try to do). it not like i can have 200 CP split between boosting my staff heavy weapon attacks(staff expert) and boosting fire damage(elemental expert), because id need 600 CP to get the required 200Cp in the Mage trees.

i think that is a well thought out part of the system. along with the scaling. i just think it could be emphasised by changing the cap and reducing the scaling.

starkerealm

willymchilybily wrote: »

it not like i can have 200 CP split between boosting my staff heavy weapon attacks(staff expert) and boosting fire damage(elemental expert), because id need 600 CP to get the required 200Cp in the Mage trees.

This is actually one of the most common mistakes I see people making, when they're ascribing godlike power to the Champion System in general. They'll suggest builds that would require imbalanced allocations, and then count the total CP used to get there, rather than realizing that, there's actually some real limitations to how you can distribute your CP for your rank.