Was book wasn't written yet?

smausage

In Black Marsh I came across Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls... which was written by Septimus Signus, who is encountered in Skyrim. Skyrim takes place in 4E 201, while the events of this game take place around 2E 500. Unless Signus is a vampire, that book shouldn't exist, and I don't recall him looking like a vampire in Skyrim. Also, if he were a vampire, you'd think the Mages Guild would realize "hmm, this book was written about 1,000 years ago..." and be suspicious of Septimus. Is this just a mistake in the game or something else?

timidobserver

The Mage's Guild library is stored outside of time.

Lone_Wolf

Considering that the book is not dated in both publications (Skyrim and ESO), nobody will question the rantings of a madman. Plus I'm going with Timid's theory of the Mages guild library.

My other guess would be developer oversight. Oh well.

Darlgon

Well.. one OTHER thing...

As a servant of Hermaeus Mora, if I remember my encounter with him in Skyrim, he has lived so long by being sustained by the Daedric Prince. I have often speculated that that room he is in is actually part of the Apocrypha, with all the weird effects inside it.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Lone_Wolf wrote: »

My other guess would be developer oversight. Oh well.

With this comment in it:

(Note by Ancestor Moth Brother Quintus Nerevelus: Found this at the back of the library stacks behind the Scroll of Rhunen. It had obviously been there a long time, yet the printer's sigil notes its publication date as "4E 195." This is obviously a transcription error. I think.)

I'm going to disagree that it was a dev oversight. I will throw my vote in for Hermaeus Mora's involvement; Neloth in Dragonborn specifically noted that some of the Black Books seemed to come from the future, so dumping Septimus' book into the timeline before ESO is entirely within his power to do.

Ghrimn

"Found this (...) behind the Scroll of Rhunen".

The Elder Scrolls are fragments of creation from outside time itself, and their use in divining prophecies is but a small part of their power. Their numbers and location change for unknown reasons. They simultaneously do not exist, yet always have existed.

I doubt Hermaeus Mora had anything to do with it. It probably got dragged around time by the Scroll of Rhunen.

Enodoc

The loading screen for Gandranen Ruins explains what is happening (it is Hermaeus Mora's fault):
Tales say that Gandranen was built by an Ayleid sorcerer, a worshiper of Hermaeus Mora who so loved books that she created a series of magical halls that would attract books from across Tamriel, no matter where—or when—they were published.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I'm going to disagree that it was a dev oversight. I will throw my vote in for Hermaeus Mora's involvement; Neloth in Dragonborn specifically noted that some of the Black Books seemed to come from the future, so dumping Septimus' book into the timeline before ESO is entirely within his power to do.

Amusingly enough, some of Dragonborn's Black Books actually appear in ESO as lorebooks. Those fragmentary texts on the very first mage's guild mission? Yeah, those were on Solstheim in 4e, and several ones refer to things that appear nowhere else in the lore.

JD2013

Hermaeus Mora did it. And he knows where all the children of Tamriel have gone.

Let's have a huge story expansion with Hermaeus Mora, ZoS! Let's explain a few things!

starkerealm

JD2013 wrote: »

Hermaeus Mora did it. And he knows where all the children of Tamriel have gone.

Let's have a huge story expansion with Hermaeus Mora, ZoS! Let's explain a few things!

We had a Hermaeus Mora focused expansion. It's not like it was a secret. ...actually, no, maybe it was, nevermind.

Ghrimn

@Enodoc
Doesn't that apply to Gandranen alone, and weren't the books attracted to that location only? The Ruminations were found in the Imperial Library, behind an Elder Scroll. Even though Hermaeus Mora might have been the main reason for books to wander through time, I doubt he had anything to do with this one.

starkerealm

Ghrimn wrote: »

@Enodoc
Doesn't that apply to Gandranen alone, and weren't the books attracted to that location only? The Ruminations were found in the Imperial Library, behind an Elder Scroll. Even though Hermaeus Mora might have been the main reason for books to wander through time, I doubt he had anything to do with this one.

Hremaeus Mora isn't the only means for books to end up in the wrong time, in Tamriel.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Ghrimn wrote: »

@Enodoc
Doesn't that apply to Gandranen alone, and weren't the books attracted to that location only? The Ruminations were found in the Imperial Library, behind an Elder Scroll. Even though Hermaeus Mora might have been the main reason for books to wander through time, I doubt he had anything to do with this one.

If that library was built by an Ayleid sorcerer, odds are it was back in the First Era at least, which is plenty of time for books and scrolls to go wandering out of it again. That said, I think at this point we're going to have to face the fact that there's more than one way for books to go back in time in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Ghrimn

@starkerealm
That's why I said "It probably got dragged around time by the Scroll of Rhunen."
Also, I doubt those are really Herma Mora's Black Books, because they're supposed to teleport its reader to Apocrypha.

@WhiteCoatSyndrome
The thing is... The Elder Scrolls don't need no magical halls, or anything to travel through time, they can already do that by themselves, and that's why I think that this time, The Scrolls were the ones responsible for this book and not Hermaeus Mora.

Kupoking

So... 2 different dudes cant have the same name and profession?

starkerealm

Ghrimn wrote: »

@starkerealm
That's why I said "It probably got dragged around time by the Scroll of Rhunen."
Also, I doubt those are really Herma Mora's Black Books, otherwise you would be dragged to Apocrypha.

Untold Legends, The Hidden Twilight, and The Winds of Change can all be found in ESO. And, the first page can actually be read. Something you can't do in Skryim (without using the creation kit) because of the instant loading screen. I could swear there's a fourth one, but I can't find it right now.

So, no, the black books, with identical text to the versions in Dragonborn do exist in ESO. You can find them under Mysteries and Clues if you've finished the Mage's Guild quest and can recall non-lore books from your library.

starkerealm

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

So... 2 different dudes cant have the same name and profession?

No, they can. They just can't both write the exact same book with the exact same dating set in the distant future for one of them.

Ghrimn

@starkerealm
I'm not putting in cause their existence in ESO, I'm just saying those books you find in ESO are not Herma Mora's Black Books, they're probably just a copy, because if they really were the real ones, you would be teleported to Apocrypha when reading them.

starkerealm

Ghrimn wrote: »

@starkerealm
I'm not putting in cause their existence in ESO, I'm just saying those books you find in ESO are not Herma Mora's Black Books, they're probably just a copy, because if they really were the real ones, you would be teleported to Apocrypha when reading them.

This requires a couple assumptions.

That the text itself isn't what makes the book unusual. Okay, maybe, except; the entire point of the black books was that they represented knowledge that was otherwise impossible to obtain. That the content of the books could be copied without bringing the effect of that knowledge over would somewhat defeat the entire concept.

That magic affects the Dragonborn and Vestige in exactly the same way. We actually know this isn't the case. We also know that magic doesn't affect either one "properly." Both posses an innate resistance to magic, that distorts and undermines some magical effects. You can still set them on fire, but with other things? Not so much.

A couple key examples would be Keening and Lycanthropy. Normal characters in The Elder Scrolls can't even touch Keening, it would kill them on the spot. In fact, even the Nerevarine needed specialized equipment to handle it. However, this is something the Dragonborn can actually pick up and use, without suffering any harm. While we don't have a similar example with the Vestige, because, ESO can't really turn us loose with anything unique. But, we can see the effects of this with Lycanthropy.

Normal Lycanthropes in the setting can sometimes resist or fight against transforming against their will, but, at it's core it's a curse that forces them to take the form of a werewolf regardless of their desires. They have some control over it, but not much. The Dragonborn has (almost) complete control. (Aside from one quest where Hircine personally pokes them with a stick for his amusement) they only transform when they want to. They are also not unusually resistant to infection. With both Lycanthropy and Vampirism, they can be turned against their will.

That's, not true of the Vestige. They actually need to submit to the infection or it doesn't take at all. Further, while they can't avoid being a vampire, the Vestige can completely suppress their lycanthropy. From a setting standpoint, that's actually kinda mindboggling. They consent to be werewolves when they feel like it, and they can completely suppress it at any time. This isn't just a game mechanics function either, when you're playing through Glenumbra as a werewolf, you'll be repeatedly put in situations where you should be exposed. You can chalk it up to the game not checking to see if you are a werewolf, because it doesn't expect a level 12 wolf to exist. But, at the same time, it is exhibited behavior.

It's also supported by dozens of quest in the game where the player is allowed to shrug off highly potent magical effects simply because of their natural state as the Vestage.

Incidentally, the changes in game mechanics for Vampirism aren't incredibly diagnostic, because The Elder Scrolls has never allowed access to the same strain of Vampirism in different games. Skyrim's Volkelhar aren't supposed to be immune from the sun, but Lamae's in ESO are. So, take that for whatever it's worth.

So, are these real black books that Hermaeus Mora should be able to pull the Vestige's soul into Apocrypha, but can't because it's already in the hands of Molag Bal or are they just broken copies? Or broken originals, where the actual hook in the text has been eroded away from centuries of neglect in an alyied ruin/dwemer outpost somewhere? I don't know. But, I do know the black books exist in ESO, and there is a real chance they're not just copies.

KiraTsukasa

Darlgon wrote: »

Well.. one OTHER thing...

As a servant of Hermaeus Mora, if I remember my encounter with him in Skyrim, he has lived so long by being sustained by the Daedric Prince. I have often speculated that that room he is in is actually part of the Apocrypha, with all the weird effects inside it.

That theory works, except for one little detail. Hermaeus Mora was using Septimus and his knowledge of Dwemer technology to open the Dwemer lockbox in order to reclaim the Oghma Infinium. If that room was part of Apocrypha, Mora's own realm of Oblivion, why would he need someone else, let alone a mortal, to help him reclaim it?

Gidorick

I just want to say it's THIS kind of stuff that makes me love the TES universe. This thread had me grinning ear to ear.

Enodoc

starkerealm wrote: »

So, are these real black books that Hermaeus Mora should be able to pull the Vestige's soul into Apocrypha, but can't because it's already in the hands of Molag Bal or are they just broken copies?

Sounds reasonable to me. The Black Books probably only "work" if their reader has a soul, otherwise there's nothing to take to Apocrypha, since the body remains in Mundus when reading a Black Book to keep the soul anchored.
Neloth also suggests that "copies" are less dangerous, as he takes a copy of one of the books when you bring it to him, so they could also be non-functional copies.

UrQuan

starkerealm wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Hermaeus Mora did it. And he knows where all the children of Tamriel have gone.

Let's have a huge story expansion with Hermaeus Mora, ZoS! Let's explain a few things!

We had a Hermaeus Mora focused expansion. It's not like it was a secret. ...actually, no, maybe it was, nevermind.

Yeah, but that wasn't in ESO. In fact, thinking back on it, that Hermaeus Mora focused expansion wasn't... Wait, was I even awake when that happened? KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Hermaeus needs to get a better librarian. At Raw'kha vile manse didn't we just retrieve the Oghma for him. Tsk tsk o many eyed tentacled one you need to stop being so careless.

Wolfster

Doesn't Morrowind also suggest that The Lusty Argonian Maid is written by Crassius Curio, who you encounter in Morrowind. So how does the game have LAM and sequel volumes?

My memory could be wrong though.

starkerealm

Wolfster wrote: »

Doesn't Morrowind also suggest that The Lusty Argonian Maid is written by Crassius Curio, who you encounter in Morrowind. So how does the game have LAM and sequel volumes?

My memory could be wrong though.

No, you're remembering correctly. It's a book from the third era. There's a thing from Telenger suggesting that the story is much older... but given the particular brand of egotist, and the paper-thin author insert character in the play... no, it's Crassius Curio. That creepy *** *** Guar ***er.

icontested

smausage wrote: »

In Black Marsh I came across Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls... which was written by Septimus Signus, who is encountered in Skyrim. Skyrim takes place in 4E 201, while the events of this game take place around 2E 500. Unless Signus is a vampire, that book shouldn't exist, and I don't recall him looking like a vampire in Skyrim. Also, if he were a vampire, you'd think the Mages Guild would realize "hmm, this book was written about 1,000 years ago..." and be suspicious of Septimus. Is this just a mistake in the game or something else?

This post gets an awesome. Worded well. Thought provoking and open respectful discussion.