Prisoner Dilemma quest, who was the traitor? (spoiler)

Sadishist

In the public dungeon The Lion's Den in The Rift, who's the traitor? I got all the interrogation transcripts but can't figure out which one is the traitor.

Sadishist

Fjar

Hilka

Agent: How does it feel to be abandoned by the Pact.
Hilka: The Pact didn't abandon me. Thragof did.
Agent: You really do hate him, don't you?
Hilka: No more than he deserves.
Agent: Meaning?
Hilka: Meaning he's an incompetent idiot who couldn't lead a Khajiit to moon-sugar.
Agent: And the rest of your command?
Hilka: Well, if they were bright we wouldn't be here, would we?

Hald

Agent: Hello again, Hald.
Hald: Stay away from me.
Agent: Careful, Hald, you'll hurt my feelings. Especially after you were my guest for, what was it? Eight weeks?
Hald: I've nothing else for you. I gave you everything then. Just let me go.
Agent: After how useful you were before? Come now, Hald. You and I both know our arrangement only ends when I say it does.

Fjar

Agent: How are you? Are you being treated well?
Fjar: So far. I know you guys aren't all the monsters you're made out to be.
Agent: That's good to hear. You're married to a Breton, aren't you? Helewise?
Fjar: Yes, sir. Happily married eight years.
Agent: Good. Good. It's like I keep telling my men, family is more important than anything else, even the king.
Fjar: I couldn't agree more.

Legendary2150

Fjar

I think Fjar the traitor

afgncaap7

Fjar

Fjar neglected to mention his Breton wife to his commander, got chummy with his interrogator, practically spelled-out that he wasn't loyal to the king or the pact and was the only one who insisted there was no conspiracy. Easy choice for me.

BullNetch

Hald

Hilka sounded loyal to the Pact. She was angry that she got captured. She didn't blame the Pact for abandoning her, blamed her superior instead.

Fjar was married to a Breton that lived in Skyrim. His wife is pregnant, too. The DC agent probably knew he was married to a Breton because of Hald. The DC agent was trying to butter him up and get him to turn, also.

Hald and the Agent had an arrangement and he told Hald he'd only be free from it when the DC said so and that he was too useful to release from their arrangement. Hald was acting like he had enough and was quitting.

MattT1988

Fjar

I went with Fjar. But I don't think there's any real consequences for who you pick, I don't think you ever find out if you were right or wrong or am I mistaken?

TheDracojan

Hald

The agent sounds kinda shady imo.

Korah_Eaglecry

Hald

Hilka is frustrated with the situation. Shes been captured, its not surprising she would blow off some steam about it. While some might see her as the perfect choice. Nothing about being frustrated with leadership strikes me as willing to betray her allegiance to the Pact itself. I've known my fair share of soldiers in real life. So maybe Im being a bit biased here. But soldiers *** about their leadership. Its how they blow off steam. When all is said and done, they get right back to work. Its only in extreme situations where you hear about soldiers betraying their officers. Her conversation doesnt indicate that shes doing that. Only complaining as youd expect from someone enlisted.

Hald is the traitor. Hes spent time with the Daggers as their captive before. If youve played Skyrim youd know that Ulfric was a prisoner of the Thalmor. Supposedly they broke Ulfric in that time. So its not a stretch that the Daggers broke Hald in the same manner during those 8 weeks. The Agent himself recognizes Hald and Hald admits to giving the Daggers information. Sure hes not happy to see them again and is resistant to the notion of doing any more. But if he could be broken once. He can be broken again.

Fjar seems like a bit of a red herring. Its meant to give you the impression that he has a secret and that his ties to the Daggers is through his wife. But as someone else said its more likely that the Agent came to know of Helewise through Hald. Fjars lack of hatred for the Daggers has more to do with this love for his wife than for any sort of treasonous acts.

Dayth

Hald

Hald has given them information before so it's entirely possible he gave them information again, his first batch of information was probably used to capture Lion's Den in the first place.

Yes, Fjar says he's more loyal to his family than the king but I imagine most people would be Besides, how did they know about his wife? Someone would of had to of told them about her in the first place.

Gwaurin

Like many quests, we don't have enough information or clues to solve the mystery. What we do have, is suspicions, speculations, and bias which adds up to a pile of nothing conclusive.

Hilka's interrogation shows an animosity against Thragof. We don't know anything more about it. She brushes it off as a generalized "I hate everybody" which is evasive. It's possible the agent was needling in a personal matter or that she despises Thragof for another reason such as a leadership issue. Her attitude is suspicious of something going on but not conclusive that she's an informant.

Fjar seems to have concern extended for his welfare on account of his breton wife. This may be familiarity if he's the spy or the agent trying to use a connection to wheedle information out of him. It is the agent who leads the witness to admit family is more important than country loyalties. How the agent knows about his wife is unknown. Under the circumstances, Fjar seems likewise to be trying to establish friendly repetoire probably to negociate his release. He might have himself told them about his wife as part of these efforts.

Hald is the most suspicious since the agent refers to their acquaintance as an "arrangement." This could be posturing or mental manuevering through words. Hald admits to giving information "before." Hald is the most likely choice until you speak to him and he fully admits he was captured "years ago" in Daggerfall. Thus, the previous "arrangement" could refer to his imprisonment which the agent said lasted "8 weeks." Hald also says they've tortured him three times. He definitely was not cooperative nor happy to see the agent he recognized. Thus, Hald is the most forthcoming but he could be lying. The "8 weeks" could refer to a recent "arrangement" that has gone awry not to the past.

The Alchemist's Letter in the nearby tent gives the only other information about the captives. It directs all are to be interrogated and killed. So even if there was an informant, they intended to kill him/her too. So the fact Hald was tortured isn't proof of his innocence. He certainly hopes you will believe it is.

The Alchemist's Letter also says there were 5 captives and that 2 escaped. We know that Thragof was one escapee and likely the leader of the party. Hilka seems to blame him for their capture and he seems to take charge of the reporting after the mission as well saying that the "higher ups" will decide the fate of the traitor. But that leaves one member unaccounted for.

Thragof never mentions a fifth member at all which is suspicious. Obviously as leader of the party or even as just a member, all should know the members of their party. There is a skeleton tied to a fourth stake but if there were 2 escapees, that skeleton cannot be the fifth member of their party.

Here's my theory:

Thragof and Hilka were both informants.

Thragof was the leader of the party and led the group into the trap. When he realized his fate was the same as theirs, he managed to escape either with the help of the fifth member or alone. Either way, he killed the fifth member who realized the truth and confronted him. Thragof was on his way out of the camp when he is startled to meet the player. Thragof seems genuinely surprised to meet you and recognizes you are not with the enemy right away. He also immediately directs you to "find the traitor" to prejudice you against his companions and shift the blame onto someone else pronto.

With you acting as Thragof's agent to ferret out a traitor amongst equally imperfect comrades, he can write up a report squarely placing blame on a dead accused since he told you to leave the traitor "to die" not bring him back for cross-examination or trial by his/her peers.

Hilka was his partner or aware of the scheme and had bartered an "arrangement" of her own with Thragof. When she realized the deal had "soured," and they were all being treated as enemy captives, she believed he had "run out on her" which is why she was so bitter. "Hated everybody." When Thragof escaped, he didn't take her with him.

When you meet Thragof, Hilka is a loose end he hopes you would "take care of." She is a liability and could accuse him since she knows the truth. He knew she would be angry and might accuse him, but since you were prejudiced to favor his side, you would likely suspect her for treason against her superiors.

If you bring Hilka back, he says nothing about it and she doesn't act like anything has changed but she seems overly vindictive and insists that the accused traitor's family be punished. Is she truly that vengeful on behalf of her team? The team she already admitted she hates? Or is she overcompensating to try and cover up what was really going on? Or prove that she's loyal to Thragof? Didn't "sell him out?"

Hilka might say she "hates" Thragof for incompetence or because he's the reason they got caught, but there may be more than meets the eye on that score.

I never suspected Hilka seriously until I spoke to her before leaving the valley. She says "You made the right choice." What? What kind of person says "you made the right choice" when they don't know anything? Furthermore, didn't she say she "hated everybody?" Why would she be concerned with finding the traitor if she dislikes all equally? Or rather, how could she be so certain that the one I chose was the traitor? She didn't see the transcripts. Or did she? She says something unnecessary even unnatural. It implies that it doesn't matter which of the two men I chose as the traitor, she would say the same thing. After all, she'd believe anyone was a traitor since she doesn't like any of them. Or does she?

Hilka is suddenly not two-dimensional and in some ways the least forthcoming making intentional side-steps. We actually know the least about her in a web with a few threads of muddied facts in a curtain of giant, gaping holes.

In the end, without quest follow-up, we have no way of knowing the truth. I suspect Thragof is the traitor as he calmly accepts whomever you decide was the traitor (and he met you when? an hour ago? randomly?) without great concern or questioning.

Thragof might have desired an objective viewpoint to uncover the truth rather than face comrades he had known for a long time, but to not cross-examine my decision at all comes across as ambivalent in a matter that damned one of his teammates "to die." He was looking for a scapegoat.

This quest reminds me of the Dark Brotherhood induction in TESV:Skyrim. You have three captives all with various suspicious or imperfect loyalty records so any one of them could be guilty. You are predisposed from the beginning to believe that one of them definitely is guilty when we have no certainty of that premise except Thragof's word which is not greater than anyone else's.

For the DB induction, if you play into Ingrid's game of executing judgement on any one of three candidates of whom you should not be acting the Judge, you are welcomed into the Dark Brotherhood as their latest tool for murder. If you refuse to play the game, you can fight Ingrid instead and escape, freeing all three captives from the game.

Here however, we have no way to find out the truth or avoid the choice to leave one behind. I hoped the Covenant would be kindest to Fjar so I chose him to stay. But I believe the whole setup to be rigged and rotten from the beginning.

Thragof is the traitor. Hilka is his accomplice/girlfriend.

Jayman1000

I know this an old thread but... heh I only read the note about Hald and thought that the game meant to say that he was the traitor. Hearing his explanation that it was years ago and that he was tortured I decided to free him and then by pure luck I decided to free Hilka also. I actually thought I would get to be able to free them all, so also be to free Fjar, but I couldn't. I felt kinda of pissed by that, condemning an innocent man to imprisonment and probably torture just because the game decided I could only free two, so I took to google to search out an explanation of this stoopid quest! and found this thread. Guess I should have searched for more notes in the camp... Glad that it ended up as it should even if by chance.

Eravior_

I figured all three were traitors so I untied the skeleton and carried it to freedom.

peppercats

Old thread, but I think this is the worst written quest I've done so far. It would be far more logical to collect the evidence + free all three of them and let the people that should actually be their judge well... judge them. What if all three were spies? Or two of them were working together? Two already escaped, how do we know one of them isn't the spy? The guy giving you the quest could be the spy simply deflecting.

Really disliked this quest.

woufff

Fjar

I was also a bit puzzled by this quest and I also wasn't at all sure having picked the right guy to stay behind. After having read all posts (special thanks to @Gwaurin for his detective work which I loved to read ) I'm still not sure but I think it doesn't matter at all, this quest was written in a way that all of them could be the traitors, that there is no right or wrong choice.

Btw, as I'm always doing public dungeons alone this quest did cost quite some soul gems, I really need to work on my crowd control, cannot take more than six at the same time

Kalik_Gold

Hald

Once a rat always a rat.... left Hald

MrStranger

Assumed Brea Snowrider was the 2nd scout that escaped.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

As this thread was originally created in 2015 and some of the information may no longer be relevant, we decided to close it down. Please feel free to start a new topic on this subject if you wish to discuss it further.

Thank you for your understanding.