ISSUE: No PvP for players new to the game

mukiovatai

I'd like to address this issue to developers.

A few days ago a friend of mine, who had just purchased ESO, reached level 10 and came to join us in Cyrodiil. We took him to Blackwater Blade non-vet, and explained some basics to him at a friendly keep, taught siege etc. Then we sought out a conflict so he could get a taste of combat.

From this a problem became obvious. My friend, who is brand new to the game and to the PvP component, found himself fighting veteran players with incredible damage shields, nirnhoned gear, tremedous recovery through CP, and elite level skills. As you can imaguine, he quickly received the impression that this PvP is pointless, or at least for him. We had to explain to him what he was up against, but I wonder, how many new players have turned away from PvP through this same experience?

This is currently the state of Blackwater, and as such you have no real place for beginners to learn this aspect of the game. A brand new player can not really compete in vet PvP, where high level abilities can cause so much damage and destroy him quickly. Also now in Blackwater, it is overrun by veteran players who are applying all their advantages to lower level characters and dominating a server against many new players who can not even cause them damage. As I have witnessed directly, a brand new player CAN NOT compete. Truly if you are competing at that level, can craft nirned gear, have 300 CP, etc., you belong in veteran level campaigns, not taking advantage of what was intended to be a "newbie" server- a server that still receives an influx of brand new players regularly, as they see "non-vet" and think that it will be the best place to start learning.

Therefore I address this to developers and make the following suggestions:

-Give new players a campaign in which they can get their feet wet and learn the game without being overrun by "pros". Restrict entry to this campaign to only accounts without VR toons/CP.

-Potentially consider also a dummy training map, without enemy alliance, with keeps/outpost manned by enemy NPC only, where an alliance could enter and conduct training of their new players. In such an environment, we could host training events and teach players to siege, capture keeps, outposts and resources, better preparing them for the PvP component.
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Sallington

Who expects to start something new and not be terrible compared to people who have been doing it for well over a year?

The best advice I can is for you to teach your friend how to run with a large group, use positional awareness to stay in the back of the fight, and how to use siege equipment effectively. He'll get the hang of it eventually.

SirAndy

Sallington wrote: »

Who expects to start something new and not be terrible compared to people who have been doing it for well over a year?

The point the OP is trying to make is that your actual SKILL as a player has little to do with how well you are doing in PvP. It's all about what gear you have, how many CP points you have and how well your macro app is working for you. A new player will never catch up on CP.

A brand new player, at level 10 with no CP and no gear help, could be the best PvP player in the world and he/she would still be stomped into the ground by a VR14 who has accumulated the correct tools.

ESO PvP is *not* about player skill, it's all about who got the good stuff first.


PS: I miss the days of Quake Team Arena where everyone had the same gear and weapons and actual player SKILL determined your place on the leaderboards.

mukiovatai

^Yeah there are some serious imbalances right now that have been addressed by many people before me, and I totally agree.... I'm not trying to rehash those discussions though.... I'm just hoping that devs will consider my suggestions. Especially that of a training server for your alliance. It would be great to be able to conduct controlled training in such an environment.

QuebraRegra

This is an interesting perspective.

Firstly, I thought BLACKWATER was a non-vet only campaign? I might occasionally see a VET1, but they're about out of the door and squishy due to losing the non vet boost.

Secondly, this is exactly why I avoid the vet campaigns in favour of creating alts and continually remaining non-vet. It's a matter of balance you see, and the OP has demonstrated why there is none, and why it's not enjoyable.

Even in the non-vet there are those that will explot (multiple mundus, shield stackers, cmo snipers, etc.). Let's all not forget the affect of CP on non-vet alts. The important thing is to offer at least one campaign with some semblance of balance. I understand the next patch does some booting for lower VETs in the vet campaign.

LegendaryChef

As much as people will hate to say it, 1.5 was the most balanced this game will ever get. Champion points have absolutely destroyed what balance this game had left. Even in baby pvp all you have to do is make a new character and you still have 300+ cp more than the noob that just started the game which is once again, unbalanced. Can't see it being sorted anytime soon either.

RedTalon

The main thing seems to be if your new you don't want to pvp, its a thing designed for vets

Have champ points or else in all campaigns

QuebraRegra

^ the main thing should be balance... But it's not.

k2blader

SirAndy wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Who expects to start something new and not be terrible compared to people who have been doing it for well over a year?

The point the OP is trying to make is that your actual SKILL as a player has little to do with how well you are doing in PvP. It's all about what gear you have, how many CP points you have and how well your macro app is working for you. A new player will never catch up on CP.

A brand new player, at level 10 with no CP and no gear help, could be the best PvP player in the world and he/she would still be stomped into the ground by a VR14 who has accumulated the correct tools.

ESO PvP is *not* about player skill, it's all about who got the good stuff first.


PS: I miss the days of Quake Team Arena where everyone had the same gear and weapons and actual player SKILL determined your place on the leaderboards.

Agree. It's one reason I've avoided nonvet. I've thought about trying it without spending any CPs, but am just not into masochism. :-P

AhPook_Is_Here

I don't think it is a bad idea to have a campaign limited to accounts younger than 4 months old.

Grunkins

I am a new player (first post on the forums), and I also reached level 10 and went right out to Cyrodill with just about zero armor and no real idea what I was doing. In no time I was in a group defending a siege, then shortly after we were seiging a neihboring keep. It was intensely fun! I knew I had no chance against players who've been in it for a while, so I hung back and did a lot of off healing. As much fun as I've had in pvp in a long time.

In short, my experience was very different than the OP's friend's.

Publius_Scipio

Grunkins wrote: »

I am a new player (first post on the forums), and I also reached level 10 and went right out to Cyrodill with just about zero armor and no real idea what I was doing. In no time I was in a group defending a siege, then shortly after we were seiging a neihboring keep. It was intensely fun! I knew I had no chance against players who've been in it for a while, so I hung back and did a lot of off healing. As much fun as I've had in pvp in a long time.

In short, my experience was very different than the OP's friend's.

Welcome.

The single greatest factor in ESO is hours spent in the game. Time equals xp, champ points, learning your build and play style, learning others play styles, etc. Also gear is limited by your level. This isn't a game where if you are a level 5 and come across the Ultimate Sword of Super Giants you can use it.

Everything comes after time spent.

Raizin

mukiovatai wrote: »

I'd like to address this issue to developers.

A few days ago a friend of mine, who had just purchased ESO, reached level 10 and came to join us in Cyrodiil. We took him to Blackwater Blade non-vet, and explained some basics to him at a friendly keep, taught siege etc. Then we sought out a conflict so he could get a taste of combat.

From this a problem became obvious. My friend, who is brand new to the game and to the PvP component, found himself fighting veteran players with incredible damage shields, nirnhoned gear, tremedous recovery through CP, and elite level skills. As you can imaguine, he quickly received the impression that this PvP is pointless, or at least for him. We had to explain to him what he was up against, but I wonder, how many new players have turned away from PvP through this same experience?

This is currently the state of Blackwater, and as such you have no real place for beginners to learn this aspect of the game. A brand new player can not really compete in vet PvP, where high level abilities can cause so much damage and destroy him quickly. Also now in Blackwater, it is overrun by veteran players who are applying all their advantages to lower level characters and dominating a server against many new players who can not even cause them damage. As I have witnessed directly, a brand new player CAN NOT compete. Truly if you are competing at that level, can craft nirned gear, have 300 CP, etc., you belong in veteran level campaigns, not taking advantage of what was intended to be a "newbie" server- a server that still receives an influx of brand new players regularly, as they see "non-vet" and think that it will be the best place to start learning.

Therefore I address this to developers and make the following suggestions:

-Give new players a campaign in which they can get their feet wet and learn the game without being overrun by "pros". Restrict entry to this campaign to only accounts without VR toons/CP.

-Potentially consider also a dummy training map, without enemy alliance, with keeps/outpost manned by enemy NPC only, where an alliance could enter and conduct training of their new players. In such an environment, we could host training events and teach players to siege, capture keeps, outposts and resources, better preparing them for the PvP component.
----

this wld be simply solved if there were campaigns for low lvls / separated like this for example:

10-20 lvl campaign
20-30 lvl campaign
30-40 lvl campaign
40-50 lvl campaign

short term campaigns (lets say 3 days one), where CPS are not allowed, without acces to IC (ofc - duh) and ofc made smaller so its not such a pain in the ass for newer players (horse simulator ftw) (and by smaller i mean just to make the campaigns with less keeps/can be same design tho).

all this = and problem solved + tons of fun secured + no stress for new players (or those who dont carea about zergballing vs lagtrains)

Xiphyla

LegendaryChef wrote: »

As much as people will hate to say it, 1.5 was the most balanced this game will ever get. Champion points have absolutely destroyed what balance this game had left. Even in baby pvp all you have to do is make a new character and you still have 300+ cp more than the noob that just started the game which is once again, unbalanced. Can't see it being sorted anytime soon either.

It wont be sorted out at all . 1.5 was surely the so called most balanced one even though there's some flaws. The main problem is the dev in this game is totally clueless on what they are doing , they are utterly useless like what juraig said.

Xiphyla

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Grunkins wrote: »

I am a new player (first post on the forums), and I also reached level 10 and went right out to Cyrodill with just about zero armor and no real idea what I was doing. In no time I was in a group defending a siege, then shortly after we were seiging a neihboring keep. It was intensely fun! I knew I had no chance against players who've been in it for a while, so I hung back and did a lot of off healing. As much fun as I've had in pvp in a long time.

In short, my experience was very different than the OP's friend's.

Welcome.

The single greatest factor in ESO is hours spent in the game. Time equals xp, champ points, learning your build and play style, learning others play styles, etc. Also gear is limited by your level. This isn't a game where if you are a level 5 and come across the Ultimate Sword of Super Giants you can use it.

Everything comes after time spent.

How you expect the new players to learn if they get 1-2 shot by those veteran players who got like a bajillion CP on thier lvl 10-40+ alts in bwb campaign?

Scyantific

I too expect to go into PvP as a relative newcomer and expect to dominate the battlefield through bootstrapping alone.

Publius_Scipio

Xiphyla wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Grunkins wrote: »

I am a new player (first post on the forums), and I also reached level 10 and went right out to Cyrodill with just about zero armor and no real idea what I was doing. In no time I was in a group defending a siege, then shortly after we were seiging a neihboring keep. It was intensely fun! I knew I had no chance against players who've been in it for a while, so I hung back and did a lot of off healing. As much fun as I've had in pvp in a long time.

In short, my experience was very different than the OP's friend's.

Welcome.

The single greatest factor in ESO is hours spent in the game. Time equals xp, champ points, learning your build and play style, learning others play styles, etc. Also gear is limited by your level. This isn't a game where if you are a level 5 and come across the Ultimate Sword of Super Giants you can use it.

Everything comes after time spent.

How you expect the new players to learn if they get 1-2 shot by those veteran players who got like a bajillion CP on thier lvl 10-40+ alts in bwb campaign?

Right now PvE for xp and then go into PvP. Or run with a very tight group that will take you along the way if you want.

I believe next update they increased the xp gained in PvP to be comparable to PvE.

Smeag

I can see two solutions;

1. Make Blackwater locked for anyone with a max level character. This mean that anyone with a vet 14 (or 16 next patch) cannot access Blackwater.

2. Turn CP off in Blackwater.

Gol Barr

only explanation I can see is ZOS saying one thing at a time.... I wonder if WoW was like this at the start?

Ezareth

For starters, no one is wearing Nirnhoned gear in BWB. That's absurd, plus it wouldn't even improve your SR.

Second, yes some vets are likely playing on it, but you can take away their CPs and anything else and they're still going to mop up your friend who is level 10.

Best way to learn is to fail. If he doesn't enjoy his lessons then he isn't cut out for PVP. If you know anything about PvP then you should just teach him or get him into a guild that can.

IxSTALKERxI

Ezareth wrote: »

For starters, no one is wearing Nirnhoned gear in BWB. That's absurd, plus it wouldn't even improve your SR.

I wore like 5 Nirnhoned on Nigel the Great lol. It does work, it adds around 2k SR per piece. Won't add any SR after update tho, although nirn weapons still will.

kevlarto_ESO

I agree op, the imbalances in this game has turned off a few people in my guild, this is my biggest beef with ZOS, the do not hot fix issues which impact the player base in such a negative way examples of which, the sharpened trait and armor penetration, ninhorn, the double dawnbreaker of smiting bug, camo hunter, the list goes on and I am sure there are things I am not aware of, I know these are being fixed in the IC update but leaving them in game for months is just plain wrong. Plus dealing with no caps on regen and crazy shield stacking it can be a huge turn off to anyone trying to have fun in pvp for the first time. My advice get with a group, run close with them in the middle of them the learning curve in pvp is pretty quick in ESO and you can have fun with a lowbie, Black Water blade is the best place, not perfect but I take a guild group out there once per week and we have blast.

I use the ap farmers as a barometer of what's broken or op in the game when ever I see them switch to some new skill or weapon 99% of the time something is broken or op with skill or weapon, other wise the pain train would not be using it.

VincentBlanquin

it reminds me, i come to the game to have some casual pvp solo as DK sword and board stamina + bow. How foolish i was, i am still laughing in the case on my thornblade experince. Zenimax completely abandon pvp in case of console launch, currently they are thinking about no cp campaign, caps or catch up mechanics. too late dear studio

problem is its not about pvp grind to be better, best gear for pvp is behind pve grinding too (monster sets, master weapon, dont mention zombies grind)

very sad if advices for newbies are go to zerg ))))

Master_Kas

This is a true issue,.

Talked to some CWC grinders (who grind there a few hours daily with xp pots/scrolls) and they have all above 6-700 cp. Some even above 900 (I bet some hardcore grinders are above 1K CP aswell.)

Imagine the horror of facing these players as a fresh lvl 10 accidently joining the veteran campaigns.

Thats why I think there should be a cap on CP in cyrodiil, or even a CP-free campaign, otherwise it will push new players away from the game. And eventually even the hardcore PvPers will get bored and what you will have then will be a wasteland.

ZOS fix a damn cap or Cp free campaigns!

Master_Kas

Ezareth wrote: »

For starters, no one is wearing Nirnhoned gear in BWB. That's absurd, plus it wouldn't even improve your SR.

Second, yes some vets are likely playing on it, but you can take away their CPs and anything else and they're still going to mop up your friend who is level 10.

Best way to learn is to fail. If he doesn't enjoy his lessons then he isn't cut out for PVP. If you know anything about PvP then you should just teach him or get him into a guild that can.

Trust me man there are some who do. I play with a lvl 35ish (he was like a week ago) who also PVE:s alot and farms materials in PVE, sitting on alot of nirn. He used nirnhoned 5x on that lowlevel char. Since he doesn't pay for it and sits on alot of gold, he used some on his gear xD

Not all ofc, but you can bet there are a few.

TequilaFire

Creating a non vet campaign without CP is the best idea, locking out players because they have a vet alt is not going to fly.

GRxKnight

TequilaFire wrote: »

Creating a non vet campaign without CP is the best idea, locking out players because they have a vet alt is not going to fly.

CP free campaigns need to be a thing...hell I'd even take a CP free vet campaign just to relive 1.5 again

Lava_Croft

SirAndy wrote: »

I miss the days of Quake Team Arena where everyone had the same gear and weapons and actual player SKILL determined your place on the leaderboards.

QFT.

VincentBlanquin

Xiphyla wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Grunkins wrote: »

I am a new player (first post on the forums), and I also reached level 10 and went right out to Cyrodill with just about zero armor and no real idea what I was doing. In no time I was in a group defending a siege, then shortly after we were seiging a neihboring keep. It was intensely fun! I knew I had no chance against players who've been in it for a while, so I hung back and did a lot of off healing. As much fun as I've had in pvp in a long time.

In short, my experience was very different than the OP's friend's.

Welcome.

The single greatest factor in ESO is hours spent in the game. Time equals xp, champ points, learning your build and play style, learning others play styles, etc. Also gear is limited by your level. This isn't a game where if you are a level 5 and come across the Ultimate Sword of Super Giants you can use it.

Everything comes after time spent.

How you expect the new players to learn if they get 1-2 shot by those veteran players who got like a bajillion CP on thier lvl 10-40+ alts in bwb campaign?

good point. and its even worse on vr rank. And on the top of that, there are players who really enjoy stomping helpless newbies. Repeatedly. See me in the distance, ride on horse 2 minute just to catch them and stomp again. Typical for jerks like drac ane

Farorin

A "dummy" map I don't like the idea of, sounds too much like the whole thing of turning PVP into PVE, although I would really lvoe if there was a training area where Player characters could take other players to teach them things, or work on ideas, and in this area could be a practice keep with resources, and it would be great if we could have the option to mark ourselves for combat as well so guilds could practice fighting each other without swapping to an alliance.

Asmael

I'll assume OP is talking about PC platform (ZOS. Seriously. At least add a "console / PC" tag).

CP free campaigns need to be a thing? Probably, yes.

Level 10 complain that they fight OP vet14 with 900 CP? Seriously?

Is Blackwater Blade crowded with high CP nirnhoned characters and does it make it extremely unbalanced? No.

Hell no.

You complain about Snipe? Hell, I did complained about Snipe. I did complain about Wrecking blow. I got destroyed so many times early on, and couldn't kill a single person 1 on 1, even with the initiative of sneaking.

Then I asked for builds, joined a guild, ran into organized groups with excellent leaders, learnt about animation cancelling.

Right now I laugh at anyone using wrecking blow or snipe. Simply because these skills are so easy to counter right now.

"Hardcore vets with *** of CPs and nirnhoned"? There are some.Saying otherwise would be lying. But saying to a brand new player that he met players like this on his first encounter is just plain wrong.

I don't have 90 CPs. I don't have nirnhoned. I don't even have purple drinks nor golden gear. I don't use sets.

I have just an armor with the divine traits and a mag/stam drink, and this is enough to win 1vX most of the time.

Failing is learning. A day 1 level 10 newbie is NOT going to win a fight the first few times on his own. Period.