Swords shouldn't give more spell damage than Staves.

omfgitsbatman

Right now, swords give more spell damage than staves. A lot more. I can get about 500 more spell damage from wielding swords than I can from a staff.
I am going to gear this post toward mainly PVE, but a lot of it applies to PVP too.

There is almost no downside to using swords over staves in any caster dps build at least on an AoE/Execute bar. This seems very counter intuitive. A sword is a weapon of finesse, strength, and force. A staff is a weapon of focus, concentration, and inert ability. I would think that a magicka user would benefit more from the latter. I AM NOT SAYING THAT MELEE MAGICKA SHOULD NOT BE A VIABLE OPTION. I am saying that there is very little reason to use a staff instead of a sword right now.

"But, you don't get magicka regen from heavy attacks with swords."
This doesn't matter at all - Most people have regen on their gear to the point where this doesn't matter at. In PVE, magicka users have a ton of ways to regain magicka if they really need to (Mystic orb, Elemental drain, Equilibrium, potions, etc...) As a magicka nightblade, I have around 40k magicka and my main spammable skill is funnel health. It is so cheap that I can actually gain magicka while spamming it. I do not miss regen if I equip swords.

"But you have to stand in melee, and that's dangerous"
No you don't. I use swords on my execute/aoe bar. I do not weave my execute or aoe's anyway, because it's a dps loss. Why wouldn't I put them on the bar with more spell damage? I don't need to be in melee range for my execute, so that point is invalid. I have tested and it is actually possible for me to get the same if not higher ranged dps while using swords without weaving my attacks at all compared to using a staff and weaving.

"But you don't get the destro staff abilities/passives."
Yup... no real reason to use any of the destro staff abilities or passives... For AoE, every class has a class specific AoE that can compete with or beat elemental ring. The only class that uses a destro staff ability as their spammable is Sorcs, so there is one example of where a staff is better. But it is still beneficial for them to use swords on their aoe/execute bar.

Weapon damage and spell damage should be completely different things on weapons.
Some ideas that could help in the changing of this:

• To continue having melee magicka builds be viable, make skills like concealed weapon hit for slightly more and or cost a bit less.
• Make a melee magicka 1 handed weapon such as a wand with it's own skill tree

omfgitsbatman

Also, the fact that melee magicka is so much better than ranged magicka is making ranged dps disappear altogether. There are almost no fights in PVE where having ranged is necessary. Every single trial can be done with 0 ranged dps. You might have to adjust tactics a bit, but every fight can be done.

Jumper45

I thought the answer to this would be pretty simple looking at the destro staff passives where the sword has none of these. Yes you'll have more spell power but destro staff has spell penetration. In other words. Same thing. and elemental effects and faster heavy attacks. which means more damage. -shrug- All of this is more damage. why would you put spell power above all? Its all checks and balances. Ignoring 10% of my spell resistance on my character is 1,000 spell resistance. Yeah there are percents and all that jazz to think about but tbh without going into the math destro will outdo the sword.

Jumper45

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Also, the fact that melee magicka is so much better than ranged magicka is making ranged dps disappear altogether. There are almost no fights in PVE where having ranged is necessary. Every single trial can be done with 0 ranged dps. You might have to adjust tactics a bit, but every fight can be done.

Ranged will ALWAYS have something over melee. Time to target location. Yes there are ability to bridge gaps but that takes up a slot. This has been true since the beginning of time. More pronouced when a target is snared. If you dont believe the concept. Use a PVE boss. you can kite a melee boss. you cant kite a ranged one. Thus ranged one does more damage. Works for Players too.

Joy_Division

Jumper45 wrote: »

I thought the answer to this would be pretty simple looking at the destro staff passives where the sword has none of these. Yes you'll have more spell power but destro staff has spell penetration. In other words. Same thing. and elemental effects and faster heavy attacks. which means more damage. -shrug- All of this is more damage. why would you put spell power above all? Its all checks and balances. Ignoring 10% of my spell resistance on my character is 1,000 spell resistance. Yeah there are percents and all that jazz to think about but tbh without going into the math destro will outdo the sword.

Nope.

"Allows your Destruction Staff spells to ignore 10% of an enemy's Spell Resistance."

Dual wield Torug's Pact swords FTW.

omfgitsbatman

Jumper45 wrote: »

I thought the answer to this would be pretty simple looking at the destro staff passives where the sword has none of these. Yes you'll have more spell power but destro staff has spell penetration. In other words. Same thing. and elemental effects and faster heavy attacks. which means more damage. -shrug- All of this is more damage. why would you put spell power above all? Its all checks and balances. Ignoring 10% of my spell resistance on my character is 1,000 spell resistance. Yeah there are percents and all that jazz to think about but tbh without going into the math destro will outdo the sword.

This is only if you are using a destro staff ability. Both Magicka templars and magicka nightblades use primarily class abilities. Therefore, you get none of these benefits from a staff. You actually benefit right now from twin blade and blunt in the dual wield tree more than you benefit from staff passives.

Jumper45 wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Also, the fact that melee magicka is so much better than ranged magicka is making ranged dps disappear altogether. There are almost no fights in PVE where having ranged is necessary. Every single trial can be done with 0 ranged dps. You might have to adjust tactics a bit, but every fight can be done.

Ranged will ALWAYS have something over melee. Time to target location. Yes there are ability to bridge gaps but that takes up a slot. This has been true since the beginning of time. More pronouced when a target is snared. If you dont believe the concept. Use a PVE boss. you can kite a melee boss. you cant kite a ranged one. Thus ranged one does more damage. Works for Players too.

The only trial where time to target matters is VDSA.

Talemire

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Make a melee magicka 1 handed weapon such as a wand with it's own skill tree

This.

Talemire

Double post.

Jumper45

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

I thought the answer to this would be pretty simple looking at the destro staff passives where the sword has none of these. Yes you'll have more spell power but destro staff has spell penetration. In other words. Same thing. and elemental effects and faster heavy attacks. which means more damage. -shrug- All of this is more damage. why would you put spell power above all? Its all checks and balances. Ignoring 10% of my spell resistance on my character is 1,000 spell resistance. Yeah there are percents and all that jazz to think about but tbh without going into the math destro will outdo the sword.

This is only if you are using a destro staff ability. Both Magicka templars and magicka nightblades use primarily class abilities. Therefore, you get none of these benefits from a staff. You actually benefit right now from twin blade and blunt in the dual wield tree more than you benefit from staff passives.

Jumper45 wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Also, the fact that melee magicka is so much better than ranged magicka is making ranged dps disappear altogether. There are almost no fights in PVE where having ranged is necessary. Every single trial can be done with 0 ranged dps. You might have to adjust tactics a bit, but every fight can be done.

Ranged will ALWAYS have something over melee. Time to target location. Yes there are ability to bridge gaps but that takes up a slot. This has been true since the beginning of time. More pronouced when a target is snared. If you dont believe the concept. Use a PVE boss. you can kite a melee boss. you cant kite a ranged one. Thus ranged one does more damage. Works for Players too.

The only trial where time to target matters is VDSA.

I see well I think a change is in order for that reason but then again that would go against their idea of using what you want when you want as zeni says. If you wanna casts spells with swords fine i guess. I mean there is Ritual swords etc. Wow warlock to be an example or Warhammer. Warlocks had Ritual based swords and warhammer had ritual based daggers. Blizzard Necromancer had ritual daggers. So I guess saying that i dont think a staff has to be that iconic. Though dual swords etc might be more on the silly side. Then again if all weapon passives worked without holding the weapon then things would get muddled a little if you got every passive for every weapon. So im not sure on a solution for that other then destro staff effecting class spells.

As for your ranged comment. You said ranged dps was being phased out because melee was so much better. I was speaking to that for the fact Ranged will indeed always have something over melee. Not the fact youre holding swords.

Jumper45

VDSA Might be the only trial where it matters but its also about damage per second. A ranged character can begin their DPS charts earlier then melee thus doing more damage. There has been a whole slew of balacing acts to make melee and ranged stay on par with each other AKA introducing charges/teleports etc. Which does close the gap on the dps charts but 9 times out of 10 it takes up an ability slot/ etc. they normally add damage or utility to these movement abilities or just up their damage overall by a small amount but it never works the way its suppose to and ive yet to run into a game that did it perfectly. Ranged has somehow always out done melee in this regard and its always better. Ive never liked this but the concept has come a lonnnnng way to correcting itself.

omfgitsbatman

Jumper45 wrote: »

VDSA Might be the only trial where it matters but its also about damage per second. A ranged character can begin their DPS charts earlier then melee thus doing more damage. There has been a whole slew of balacing acts to make melee and ranged stay on par with each other AKA introducing charges/teleports etc. Which does close the gap on the dps charts but 9 times out of 10 it takes up an ability slot/ etc. they normally add damage or utility to these movement abilities or just up their damage overall by a small amount but it never works the way its suppose to and ive yet to run into a game that did it perfectly. Ranged has somehow always out done melee in this regard and its always better. Ive never liked this but the concept has come a lonnnnng way to correcting itself.

With the way the game is now, ranged cannot begin their dps any earlier than melee in any trial fight. If they start before the tank gets there, there is a good chance that they will get smacked in the face even if the tank taunts. so, melee run in with the tank and start at the same time the ranged do. With this and the fact that there are very few punishing mechanics on melee in trials that they can't ignore, and the fact that melee dps do waaaaaay more dps than ranged. Ranged dps is going away. If you don't believe me, start going for the top scores on leaderboards and notice how many ranged dps you have. In any of the elite groups that I have been in, I am typically the only ranged dps. If there are more, it's never more than 1 or 2. These groups will never have a majority of ranged dps. This is because there are more mechanics that punish ranged dps than those that stand in melee right now. There are some mechanics that try to punish melee, but stack healing negates pretty much all of them.

Emma_Overload

The distinction between ranged and melee dps only matters in group PvE, where you have a tank keeping the boss off of you. In solo PvE, the boss usually gets right up in your face no matter what you do, so we're ALL melee fighters in that situation. I think it's really unfair and ridiculous that Destro Staff users have lower spell damage than Dual Wielders, who already have the advantage of an extra set bonus.

kungmoo

your class bias is showing...

being a nightblade, yes you can stay at range and not have to get in the middle of a fight while using dual wield because you have a good ranged skill, not so for a DK magicka build, if they want to use dual wield they have to get in the thick of things or use a staff

more or less the same for a Templar magicka dps.. while they have dark flare, the LONG travel time/cast time of the skill makes its dps lackluster to say the least comparable to going dual wield and getting in melee range

on another note, being in melee range as a magicka build you are much more affected by movement than a ranged, running away from the boss etc while the ranged can sit in relative safety and keep dpsing while you have to reposition, yes I know theres mechanics that make the ranged move/dodge etc, but its much easier to get back on target

bottom line, it opens up more build options... which is a good thing IMO

omfgitsbatman

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I think it's really unfair and ridiculous that Destro Staff users have lower spell damage than Dual Wielders, who already have the advantage of an extra set bonus.

Yes, I forgot to mention the extra set piece. Good Call.

Kobaal

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

...
"But you don't get the destro staff abilities/passives."
Yup... no real reason to use any of the destro staff abilities or passives... For AoE, every class has a class specific AoE that can compete with or beat elemental ring. The only class that uses a destro staff ability as their spammable is Sorcs, so there is one example of where a staff is better. But it is still beneficial for them to use swords on their aoe/execute bar...
[/list]

Just out of curiosity, what class AOE does a NB have that can compete with Elemental Ring? It can't be sap as it does way less damage.

omfgitsbatman

kungmoo wrote: »

your class bias is showing...

being a nightblade, yes you can stay at range and not have to get in the middle of a fight while using dual wield because you have a good ranged skill, not so for a DK magicka build, if they want to use dual wield they have to get in the thick of things or use a staff

more or less the same for a Templar magicka dps.. while they have dark flare, the LONG travel time/cast time of the skill makes its dps lackluster to say the least comparable to going dual wield and getting in melee range

on another note, being in melee range as a magicka build you are much more affected by movement than a ranged, running away from the boss etc while the ranged can sit in relative safety and keep dpsing while you have to reposition, yes I know theres mechanics that make the ranged move/dodge etc, but its much easier to get back on target

bottom line, it opens up more build options... which is a good thing IMO

Magicka DK's are best in melee range right now anyway. There are absolutely no trial bosses where you get punished as a melee and can't ignore it: Rakotu's whirlwind- If you kill it fast enough, he doesn't whirlwind. Mage's Chain lightning- stack in groups of 2 far enough away from other groups.

Also, I'm not saying melee magicka should not be viable. I am not saying that at all. I am saying ranged magicka should be viable.

omfgitsbatman

Kobaal wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

...
"But you don't get the destro staff abilities/passives."
Yup... no real reason to use any of the destro staff abilities or passives... For AoE, every class has a class specific AoE that can compete with or beat elemental ring. The only class that uses a destro staff ability as their spammable is Sorcs, so there is one example of where a staff is better. But it is still beneficial for them to use swords on their aoe/execute bar...
[/list]

Just out of curiosity, what class AOE does a NB have that can compete with Elemental Ring? It can't be sap as it does way less damage.

Sap essence. It doesn't do very much less at all when you get 500 extra spell damage from dual wielding and the passive twin blade and blunt. It also buffs your spell damage therefore buffing itself. Open up on large groups with Proxy det, then sap spam forever while keeping grim focus up. The dps is amazing and the additional healing you can give the group while doing comparable, if not better aoe dps is ridiculous.

kungmoo

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

kungmoo wrote: »

your class bias is showing...

being a nightblade, yes you can stay at range and not have to get in the middle of a fight while using dual wield because you have a good ranged skill, not so for a DK magicka build, if they want to use dual wield they have to get in the thick of things or use a staff

more or less the same for a Templar magicka dps.. while they have dark flare, the LONG travel time/cast time of the skill makes its dps lackluster to say the least comparable to going dual wield and getting in melee range

on another note, being in melee range as a magicka build you are much more affected by movement than a ranged, running away from the boss etc while the ranged can sit in relative safety and keep dpsing while you have to reposition, yes I know theres mechanics that make the ranged move/dodge etc, but its much easier to get back on target

bottom line, it opens up more build options... which is a good thing IMO

Magicka DK's are best in melee range right now anyway. There are absolutely no trial bosses where you get punished as a melee and can't ignore it: Rakotu's whirlwind- If you kill it fast enough, he doesn't whirlwind. Mage's Chain lightning- stack in groups of 2 far enough away from other groups.

Also, I'm not saying melee magicka should not be viable. I am not saying that at all. I am saying ranged magicka should be viable.

not sure its official skill name, but the "popcorn" on mantikora for starters, dodge roll back to avoid the first hit... your out of range... 2 steps back to avoid second hit.. still out of range... roll forward and back in... loss = 3 seconds of dps.... casters lose less because while they do have to stop casting for the roll itself, they can start casting as soon as they dodge the first one

hel ra, last boss <sorry I'm horrible with names> burn phase, dodging the cleave (the actual cleave not the skill everyone seems to call cleave for some reason)

AA- mage the black circles that spawn on the ground that expand, can push you out of position depending on location, actually had her drop them right under herself before forcing all the melee away from her, not to mention the fact that if your all melee someone has to break off the mage to kill the mini-mage adds.. not a long downtime but downtime on dps none the less... same for 3rd boss in AA for that matter.....

and all I'm saying is there is a reason that you get a bit more damage being in melee range with dual wield/2h over a staff

omfgitsbatman

kungmoo wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

kungmoo wrote: »

your class bias is showing...

being a nightblade, yes you can stay at range and not have to get in the middle of a fight while using dual wield because you have a good ranged skill, not so for a DK magicka build, if they want to use dual wield they have to get in the thick of things or use a staff

more or less the same for a Templar magicka dps.. while they have dark flare, the LONG travel time/cast time of the skill makes its dps lackluster to say the least comparable to going dual wield and getting in melee range

on another note, being in melee range as a magicka build you are much more affected by movement than a ranged, running away from the boss etc while the ranged can sit in relative safety and keep dpsing while you have to reposition, yes I know theres mechanics that make the ranged move/dodge etc, but its much easier to get back on target

bottom line, it opens up more build options... which is a good thing IMO

Magicka DK's are best in melee range right now anyway. There are absolutely no trial bosses where you get punished as a melee and can't ignore it: Rakotu's whirlwind- If you kill it fast enough, he doesn't whirlwind. Mage's Chain lightning- stack in groups of 2 far enough away from other groups.

Also, I'm not saying melee magicka should not be viable. I am not saying that at all. I am saying ranged magicka should be viable.

not sure its official skill name, but the "popcorn" on mantikora for starters, dodge roll back to avoid the first hit... your out of range... 2 steps back to avoid second hit.. still out of range... roll forward and back in... loss = 3 seconds of dps.... casters lose less because while they do have to stop casting for the roll itself, they can start casting as soon as they dodge the first one

hel ra, last boss <sorry I'm horrible with names> burn phase, dodging the cleave (the actual cleave not the skill everyone seems to call cleave for some reason)

AA- mage the black circles that spawn on the ground that expand, can push you out of position depending on location, actually had her drop them right under herself before forcing all the melee away from her, not to mention the fact that if your all melee someone has to break off the mage to kill the mini-mage adds.. not a long downtime but downtime on dps none the less... same for 3rd boss in AA for that matter.....

1. Mantikora punishes ranged way more than melee. Both get hit by popcorn. Yes on popcorn, ranged can get back to dps quicker. But during spear phase, he throws his spears at the ranged group. They have to dodge spears all the while while melee can stand in 1 spot the entire time without moving the entire phase.
2. Most groups stack close on this fight, so everyone has to dodge the cleave. And if you just move as he moves you lose no dps time, you don't actually have to dodge it, you can just walk to the other side of him.
3. Everyone has to dodge the mines and black holes. In a good group, moving will not cost any dps. Kiling the mini mage is one time that might punish melee, but most of the time, it will be in range of some of the melee and they can just aoe. In a good group, you won't have to kill more than one or two of these in a hard mode fight. It's not very punishing at all. Melee dps will still outdo range in this fight

kungmoo

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

kungmoo wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

kungmoo wrote: »

your class bias is showing...

being a nightblade, yes you can stay at range and not have to get in the middle of a fight while using dual wield because you have a good ranged skill, not so for a DK magicka build, if they want to use dual wield they have to get in the thick of things or use a staff

more or less the same for a Templar magicka dps.. while they have dark flare, the LONG travel time/cast time of the skill makes its dps lackluster to say the least comparable to going dual wield and getting in melee range

on another note, being in melee range as a magicka build you are much more affected by movement than a ranged, running away from the boss etc while the ranged can sit in relative safety and keep dpsing while you have to reposition, yes I know theres mechanics that make the ranged move/dodge etc, but its much easier to get back on target

bottom line, it opens up more build options... which is a good thing IMO

Magicka DK's are best in melee range right now anyway. There are absolutely no trial bosses where you get punished as a melee and can't ignore it: Rakotu's whirlwind- If you kill it fast enough, he doesn't whirlwind. Mage's Chain lightning- stack in groups of 2 far enough away from other groups.

Also, I'm not saying melee magicka should not be viable. I am not saying that at all. I am saying ranged magicka should be viable.

not sure its official skill name, but the "popcorn" on mantikora for starters, dodge roll back to avoid the first hit... your out of range... 2 steps back to avoid second hit.. still out of range... roll forward and back in... loss = 3 seconds of dps.... casters lose less because while they do have to stop casting for the roll itself, they can start casting as soon as they dodge the first one

hel ra, last boss <sorry I'm horrible with names> burn phase, dodging the cleave (the actual cleave not the skill everyone seems to call cleave for some reason)

AA- mage the black circles that spawn on the ground that expand, can push you out of position depending on location, actually had her drop them right under herself before forcing all the melee away from her, not to mention the fact that if your all melee someone has to break off the mage to kill the mini-mage adds.. not a long downtime but downtime on dps none the less... same for 3rd boss in AA for that matter.....

1. Mantikora punishes ranged way more than melee. Both get hit by popcorn. Yes on popcorn, ranged can get back to dps quicker. But during spear phase, he throws his spears at the ranged group. They have to dodge spears all the while while melee can stand in 1 spot the entire time without moving the entire phase.

ill agree with you there if you go that strategy for the fight (personally I prefer it, hate goin around that damn rock) 2 of your ranged dps will lose out there

kungmoo

on another note, I'm looking at this from an average player/group point of view, not elite end game guilds, where players have to focus more on mechanics and fights take longer but I do see what your getting at

however I still feel melee runs more of a risk being in the middle of things over ranged, so they need the little extra damage.. maybe not as much as they have atm, but still more

QuebraRegra

Talemire wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Make a melee magicka 1 handed weapon such as a wand with it's own skill tree

This.

Wands have always been ranged in general lore. I'd rather see some bound type weapons which would be consistent with ES lore. Maybe make a spell that summons a bound weapon that does spell damage. The spell could be a toggle or timer, allowing you to change from say staff to bound "spirit swords" with a cast without switching bars.

Maybe make "BOUND WEAPON" an entirely new weapon line with associated skills/passives. Maybe make crafting BOUND weapons part of the "enchanting" skill line.

kungmoo

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Talemire wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Make a melee magicka 1 handed weapon such as a wand with it's own skill tree

This.

Wands have always been ranged in general lore. I'd rather see some bound type weapons which would be consistent with ES lore. Maybe make a spell that summons a bound weapon that does spell damage. The spell could be a toggle or timer, allowing you to change from say staff to bound "spirit swords" with a cast without switching bars.

Maybe make "BOUND WEAPON" an entirely new weapon line with associated skills/passives. Maybe make crafting BOUND weapons part of the "enchanting" skill line.

sign me up for bound weapons!

omfgitsbatman

kungmoo wrote: »

on another note, I'm looking at this from an average player/group point of view, not elite end game guilds, where players have to focus more on mechanics and fights take longer but I do see what your getting at

however I still feel melee runs more of a risk being in the middle of things over ranged, so they need the little extra damage.. maybe not as much as they have atm, but still more

I completely agree with you. Melee should have a higher dps in a fight where they do not have to move at all. There should just be more fights that make them move XD.

omfgitsbatman

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Talemire wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Make a melee magicka 1 handed weapon such as a wand with it's own skill tree

This.

Wands have always been ranged in general lore. I'd rather see some bound type weapons which would be consistent with ES lore. Maybe make a spell that summons a bound weapon that does spell damage. The spell could be a toggle or timer, allowing you to change from say staff to bound "spirit swords" with a cast without switching bars.

Maybe make "BOUND WEAPON" an entirely new weapon line with associated skills/passives. Maybe make crafting BOUND weapons part of the "enchanting" skill line.

Yeah, I'm not the most lore savvy... I was just spitballing. I love the idea of bound weapons. I think it would have to be it's own skill line though. You could equip some sort of token that represents bound weapons and can be crafted and made part of sets.

Stamina has 4 weapon trees, while magicka has 2. This would also justify them in changing some more class skills to stamina.

Jumper45

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

VDSA Might be the only trial where it matters but its also about damage per second. A ranged character can begin their DPS charts earlier then melee thus doing more damage. There has been a whole slew of balacing acts to make melee and ranged stay on par with each other AKA introducing charges/teleports etc. Which does close the gap on the dps charts but 9 times out of 10 it takes up an ability slot/ etc. they normally add damage or utility to these movement abilities or just up their damage overall by a small amount but it never works the way its suppose to and ive yet to run into a game that did it perfectly. Ranged has somehow always out done melee in this regard and its always better. Ive never liked this but the concept has come a lonnnnng way to correcting itself.

With the way the game is now, ranged cannot begin their dps any earlier than melee in any trial fight. If they start before the tank gets there, there is a good chance that they will get smacked in the face even if the tank taunts. so, melee run in with the tank and start at the same time the ranged do. With this and the fact that there are very few punishing mechanics on melee in trials that they can't ignore, and the fact that melee dps do waaaaaay more dps than ranged. Ranged dps is going away. If you don't believe me, start going for the top scores on leaderboards and notice how many ranged dps you have. In any of the elite groups that I have been in, I am typically the only ranged dps. If there are more, it's never more than 1 or 2. These groups will never have a majority of ranged dps. This is because there are more mechanics that punish ranged dps than those that stand in melee right now. There are some mechanics that try to punish melee, but stack healing negates pretty much all of them.

I Agree with the fact stacking aoe heals negates the punishing part to melee. Like i said its been a crazy balancing act that ive honestly never seen done correctly 100%. they change something and ranged is on top. they change something else and melee is on top. That said this is mostly based off adds then the actual boss fight start. adds pop up. Ranged is on it like white on rice. Melee takes time to get to it. Honestly the biggest advantage to me as a ranged player ( healer) is i can see the entire battle field vs a melee so i dont envy them about that. I can see how the entire fight is going down. not so much for melee with a bosses butt in their face. Most PC mmos dont use target aoe healing though. Mostly target healing so stacking aoe heals wasnt much of an issue. Not like here where u can just stack to just *** amounts of healing. while ranged gets nothing. Anyways i think were getting off topic haha. Swords - taps chin- it is a little silly even for healing i only use resto staff simply for mana regen. Nothing else really as templar. If i had mana regen ability like sorc or something u would see me with a sword and shield lol

omfgitsbatman

Jumper45 wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

VDSA Might be the only trial where it matters but its also about damage per second. A ranged character can begin their DPS charts earlier then melee thus doing more damage. There has been a whole slew of balacing acts to make melee and ranged stay on par with each other AKA introducing charges/teleports etc. Which does close the gap on the dps charts but 9 times out of 10 it takes up an ability slot/ etc. they normally add damage or utility to these movement abilities or just up their damage overall by a small amount but it never works the way its suppose to and ive yet to run into a game that did it perfectly. Ranged has somehow always out done melee in this regard and its always better. Ive never liked this but the concept has come a lonnnnng way to correcting itself.

With the way the game is now, ranged cannot begin their dps any earlier than melee in any trial fight. If they start before the tank gets there, there is a good chance that they will get smacked in the face even if the tank taunts. so, melee run in with the tank and start at the same time the ranged do. With this and the fact that there are very few punishing mechanics on melee in trials that they can't ignore, and the fact that melee dps do waaaaaay more dps than ranged. Ranged dps is going away. If you don't believe me, start going for the top scores on leaderboards and notice how many ranged dps you have. In any of the elite groups that I have been in, I am typically the only ranged dps. If there are more, it's never more than 1 or 2. These groups will never have a majority of ranged dps. This is because there are more mechanics that punish ranged dps than those that stand in melee right now. There are some mechanics that try to punish melee, but stack healing negates pretty much all of them.

I Agree with the fact stacking aoe heals negates the punishing part to melee. Like i said its been a crazy balancing act that ive honestly never seen done correctly 100%. they change something and ranged is on top. they change something else and melee is on top. That said this is mostly based off adds then the actual boss fight start. adds pop up. Ranged is on it like white on rice. Melee takes time to get to it. Honestly the biggest advantage to me as a ranged player ( healer) is i can see the entire battle field vs a melee so i dont envy them about that. I can see how the entire fight is going down. not so much for melee with a bosses butt in their face. Most PC mmos dont use target aoe healing though. Mostly target healing so stacking aoe heals wasnt much of an issue. Not like here where u can just stack to just *** amounts of healing. while ranged gets nothing. Anyways i think were getting off topic haha. Swords - taps chin- it is a little silly even for healing i only use resto staff simply for mana regen. Nothing else really as templar. If i had mana regen ability like sorc or something u would see me with a sword and shield lol

Yeah, back to the main topic XD. I know quite a few "Healers" that don't use a resto staff for any 4 man content with a decent group. I am one of them. On some fights I will equip a resto staff just for healing ward. But almost all of the 4 man content can be done with a healer that is mainly focused on dps and just putting out emergency heals. As a magicka nb, I am healing the entire time I'm dpsing anyway. It's usually enough to keep a decent group up. And for my AoE bar, I'm sap essencing using dual wield... so I'm healing with swords... kinda dumb...

MrGrimey

Risk and reward

omfgitsbatman

MrGrimey wrote: »

Risk and reward

If you are saying this in response to swords vs staves, there is no risk involved in going with swords over staves.
If you are saying this in response to melee vs ranged, I have already explained why there is very little risk and almost no negative for going melee vs going ranged.

Also, I completely support melee being able do more dps when they can stand still and do nothing. I am simply saying that they can do this in almost every single fight, so they will always be doing more damage than ranged. Ranged should have a few fights where they can do more damage because the melee get interrupted. This is absolutely not the case right now.

Jumper45

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Risk and reward

If you are saying this in response to swords vs staves, there is no risk involved in going with swords over staves.
If you are saying this in response to melee vs ranged, I have already explained why there is very little risk and almost no negative for going melee vs going ranged.

Also, I completely support melee being able do more dps when they can stand still and do nothing. I am simply saying that they can do this in almost every single fight, so they will always be doing more damage than ranged. Ranged should have a few fights where they can do more damage because the melee get interrupted. This is absolutely not the case right now.

Yeah Stacking the aoe healing etc so they can stand in red circles negates their time spent running from it aka losing dps vs a ranged etc. Trickle effect causing the dps to outdo the ranged in these situations. A fix is making the circles 1 shot. but it feels retardedly cheap to be 1shot b/c u missed a circle by an inch. What they need to do is add debuffs for these circles. Thus its not so cheap. You wont be 1shot and your dps will go down so youre being punished for failing. This would balance it out a little more. Of course adding some sort of same effect for ranged etc. As it stands now though it doesnt work.

WyldfireWyrm

Personally, I totally get what you're saying and it should be something that eventually gets fixed. However, it isn't game breaking since you can still do all the content regardless of whether you dual wield or carry a staff. So you can either choose to ride the sword magicka train or continue to be a traditional staff wielding mage.

And I also completely agree that there should be a 3rd and possibly even 4th weapon skill line for magicka users. A wand tree and a bound weapon tree are great ideas.