Learning to tank

NBrookus

ESO is my first MMO. I've read all I can find online about tanking and it's not very helpful in practice. Mostly, I try to prioritize 1) keep the bosses attention and 2) kill enemy healers.

I do great solo, but in a group, not so much. My guys aren't usually dying if they let me take the brunt, but even with Puncture/Ransack I'm having difficulty holding aggro. Second issue is running out of stamina, which I am building up.

It's not a big deal at this level (mid 30's), but now seems the best time to learn.

What's the best way to build skills for this?

Eshelmen

This is actually my first MMO that I didn't begin with a tank.

But in my experience of tanking in the 10-15 years of doing so, it also matters on DPS and the heals too.

You can try and aggro all day if you want, but if someone is hitting or healing extremely harder than your aggro skills can compensate for, then it's inevitable of them grabbing aggro.

I suggest building your gear sets up to the maximum that your current level can have for max aggro.
Keep practicing and keep doing.

We all wipe eventually.
I recommend looking at several tank builds and find what works best for you.

As well, mechanics and communication are a big key to success in dungeons and raids.
First timers and low levels don't need to be an "expert" right away. I also suggest having a guild member whom is experienced, take you out and see what you're doing right and what could be adjusted better.

Certain bosses can wipe you regardless of gear level, healer skill and dps skill too, if you're not on point with what is going on with your group and the bosses near future attacks/aoes.

Strategy>Skill>Gear is where I would prioritize the needs for dungeon completion for the majority of the time.

But again, if you're a level 30 in a 45 dungeon, with the rest of the players in your group around the dungeons level, then yes, you will have a hard time keeping aggro.
Even a powerful healer can take aggro in seconds, if the tank isn't up to par with the level.

Also, I'm sure you aren't forgetting them, but always bring your edibles with you! Even the slightest bit of buffs can be a difference between clearing and wiping.

NBrookus

"I sugguest building your gear sets up to maximize your current levels ability for max aggro."

Can you be specific? I've been going for best shield, best armor, and stamina perks. Anything else?

I've been doing dungeons at or below my level to practice. Most PUG don't want to seem to want to communicate until we all die.

Eshelmen

NBrookus wrote: »

"I sugguest building your gear sets up to maximize your current levels ability for max aggro."

Can you be specific? I've been going for best shield, best armor, and stamina perks. Anything else?

I've been doing dungeons at or below my level to practice. Most PUG don't want to seem to want to communicate until we all die.

Well gear is everything in a sense for maximizing what abilities you're trying to use it for.

The better the gear, the more power/defense output you have.

Are you wearing all greens? Are all of your items at your current level?
And obviously if you need stamina, you wouldn't dress in magicka based gear, you know?

Have all of your aggro skills been unlocked?

Scyantific

Don't bite off more than you can chew. Your DPS and Healer should be more than capable of taking out stray mobs that target them occasionally. Prioritize dangerous targets (i.e. anything that hits hard or can induce effects like Fear, Snare, etc.), learn to manage resources, and don't just spend your entire time holding down block/bashing, throw some skills there. Don't over-taunt either, taunt mobs every 15-20 seconds to keep them focused on you.

E: Specifically speaking, what class are you?

Eshelmen

Scyantific wrote: »

Don't bite off more than you can chew. Your DPS and Healer should be more than capable of taking out stray mobs that target them occasionally. Prioritize dangerous targets (i.e. anything that hits hard or can induce effects like Fear, Snare, etc.), learn to manage resources, and don't just spend your entire time holding down block/bashing, throw some skills there. Don't over-taunt either, taunt mobs every 15-20 seconds to keep them focused on you.

E: Specifically speaking, what class are you?

Templar VR10
Dragonknight VR 8

This was my most recent respec on my DK.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/166731/pve-build-dragonknight-tank-2-0

NBrookus

"Have all of your aggro skills been unlocked?"

Other than puncture, I'm not seeing anything aggro specific right now. (Orc DK)

Otherwise, it sounds like I'm on the right track. I'm wearing all greens with some blues. Not everything is at my level, but it's close and I haven't gotten any better drops or seen better for sale.

I probably overdo the bashing; it's a tough habit to break.

Eshelmen

NBrookus wrote: »

"Have all of your aggro skills been unlocked?"

Other than puncture, I'm not seeing anything aggro specific right now. (Orc DK)

Otherwise, it sounds like I'm on the right track. I'm wearing all greens with some blues. Not everything is at my level, but it's close and I haven't gotten any better drops or seen better for sale.

I probably overdo the bashing; it's a tough habit to break.

My apologies, CC I meant.
Crowd control abilities to keep the adds in check.

Allyhoo811

NBrookus wrote: »

I probably overdo the bashing; it's a tough habit to break.

It's really best to save bashing for when the enemy is using an ability with a cast time. You will know that they are using a casted ability because of the little red lines radiating from them (hope that makes sense lol). If you bash at that point, you will interrupt the casted ability and stun the enemy. Otherwise, it's just a waste of stamina.

Also make sure you are blocking heavy attacks (white lines radiating from enemy), that will stun them also. But don't try to block everything. This is especially important with the changes coming in the next major patch, where you won't regen stamina when blocking.

I don't play a tank, but one of the skills the best tanks in game seem to have is the ability to position fights where other group members are kept safer. This seems to involve a lot of constant movement and kiting the enemy. As a healer, I really appreciate this, because (as a light armor squishy) I'm not having to worry so much about killing the adds pounding on me and can focus on healing the group. Don't try to tank everything, of course (like was mentioned above good DPS and healers can handle a few adds), but do keep a special eye on your healers and make sure they aren't becoming overwhelmed. We can't heal if we are having to take out a ton of mobs.

Good luck! You will continue to get better with practice

Winterpsy

Resources:

There's a magicka based taunt also on the Undaunted skill line. Might worth looking into it, since it uses magicka instead of stamina.
As a DK you have a lot of abilities to manage resources. The earther heart skill line has the battleroar ultimate which whenever you activate an ultimate. I personally prefer the Magma shield ulti, for its relatively low cost, and the "God mode" it gives.
Also the helping hands passive from the same skill line restores stamina whenever you use an EH abilitiy. I usually have the obsidian shield (and its morphs) and cinder storm on my bars.

In dungeons I use blue drinks which increases health and stam regen, and equipment that lowers the cost of stamina abilities and bashing.

Need to look for attacks of opportunities also, when you can bring in a heavy attack or two. In many boss fights the boss monsters have slow attack or long wind up, during which you can slip in a heavy stamina restoring attack.

I also keep the stam potion on my potion slot too, which should be used whenever you are halfway out of stamina, because of the 45 sec cooldown.

All in all if you can adjust the little things, you should never run out of stamina. I rarely do at least.


Aggro:

Cinder storm I mentioned previously. It's a good way to deal some damage, apply a debuff and annoy the enemies, as due to it's constant effect draws attention on you.
I keep the already mentioned Inner fire skill on my bar too, which is a ranged magicka taunt from the undaunted. Good when you need to peel off a mob from your squishies.
Similar use: Extended chains from ardent flame. You can yank back anklebiters from your healer. Dont overdo it. Its a difficult skill to use, because it need a line of sight, and targetting.
As for CCs: some good ccs are the talons, the fossilize and the heavy shield slam from the s&b skill line. But the best I love is the absorb magic from s&b. Aside it lowers the cost of blocking it, when activated reflects back a magic attack and stuns the caster.

Charging a group-->
Do your buffs, put on the absorb magic, drop a cinder storm in the middle, invasion or shield bash a melee (out of game for a good couple ccs), drop a talon, and taunt another melee. The enemy caster is likely already stunned from the returning, reflected projectile. With a single charge you can lock down the whole group and take out a couple for even more time.

As a rule of thumb, I taunt the melees and bosses. The rest of the team usually handle anything else. Melees are the biggest threat on the team's squishies, as they love to interrupt casting with wrecking blows and heavy attacks.




(Vr 12 Nord DK as main)

NBrookus

Thanks for the tips.

Right now I'm using:
Empowering Chains
Obsidian Shard
Ransack
Engulfing Flames
Shield Charge
and Magma Shell

I'm starting to think Chains and Shield Charge are more for solo, although both can get me to the boss ASAP, especially if it's teleporting around. I haven't unlocked Ash Cloud or Inner Fire yet, but I'll keep them one in mind as a replacement for one or both of them when in dungeons.

Engulfing Flames doesn't seem to work that great. Another AOE damage would be awesome, so maybe Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm is good for that.

Winterpsy

I found the ardent flame abilities except the ultimate and the chains useless for a tank-stamina dk, because that skill line is based on magicka which we don't have that much.

I don't even bother placing points in there.

Cinder storm is a good aoe, and the banner is even better.

I usually skip shield charge too, cinder storm is better there, and I keep the chains on my second buff/utility bar along with inner fire.

Tanky Dk does not have many options for huge damage, that's what we sacrificed for survivability.
But hey, we have tons of cc, debut and buff for the party.

Ranique

First I would say not to prioritze on killing anything. Thats what the dps is for. Also, only agro as much as is needed. Often keeping the boss busy while the dps takes down the adds is more then enough. Also keep in close contact with the healer. If he is running out of magicka (it is a bad healer, but) it means you should take a bit less damage.

There are two taunts and I recommend bringing both.
puncture (sword and shield) is a melee range taunt using stamina.
Inner fire is a skill from the undaunted skilline (so you need to do dungeons to unlock it). It is magicka based by default, but it can be morphed to be stamina based anyways. Keep in mind that taunts don't last long. So make sure you keep it up so you keep the agro.

For the rest I use Shielded assault (morph from shield charge). I use it for several reasons.
The first reason is that it helps in charging in as the first person (this should not be needed, but there is always one dps, that can't wait and runs next to you or even in front of you). The second reason is that it is a good interupt (if you are ranged) and last of all cause it creates a damage shield for damage mitigation. An emergency self heal and a decent dps top it off.

Your main task is to block and taunt. so do that as much as possible, Also recognise the heavy attacks you can block and the heavy attacks you can't block (and need to get out of the way). This is a learning curve.
Cc, self heal and dps are ok to do, but only if it doesn't keep you from doing your main job.

What I normally do is rush in and taunt everything I want to have agroed. Then I turn around facing my teammates. This has the advantage that you know exactly what is agroed (and when you loose it) and you can also watch the team to see the progress of the fight.

mklundub17_ESO

Gearing and your build are of course important but that can vary greatly. Some generic tips:

Learn the fights - both boss mechanics and the troublesome trash pulls. This includes which bosses have cone effects so face them away from the group, what CC they have so you save stamina to break free, how large their AOE is and whether it's feasible to dodge roll out or if you have to block through it.

Always watch for heavy attacks and block, sometimes it's hard when there's so many particle effects so when in doubt - BLOCK.

Learn how to LOS (line of sight) - most of the troublesome trash pulls are because it's a large group with many ranged enemies, learn to move around corners to bunch them up better. Easier for a DK who can pull them in.

Know when to conserve stamina, you'll need it for taunt rotation, blocking, dodge roll and most importantly breaking out of CC.

Be vocal, call out when DPS need to focus a healer or when everyone needs to block -- many bosses have attacks that target a random group member and as a tank your main focus is on that boss which makes it easier for you to inform everyone when you see the animation starting.

Educate the DPS - too many DPS in this game think it's Everquest and they're needed to pull, or that they should start off with their most powerful AOE to pull aggro from everything. Let them know that you'll pull when you're ready and to give you a second or 2 to get some agro from your own AOE's first and bunch them together first. If they refuse to listen, I let them die a horrible but humorous death then a few teabags as an 'I told you so' reminder.

Have some form of DPS yourself. ESO is full of DPS checks and cannot always rely on 2 DPS to handle these, both the healer and tank need to contribute some DPS.

Don't forget good food and potions.

RavenSworn

Tanking in this mmo is slightly different from other mmos. Granted you have not been to other mmos but here in Eso, taunting is basically for the boss and also for bigger mobs ( tanky mobs, melee dps mobs that do stuns or knockdowns). The rest such as healers, mages and the critters are really to be cc'ed and aoe'd down.

As posters above have said, there are only two taunts available in the game; puncture and Inner fire. Puncture is from the sword and shield line and Inner fire is from the undaunted skill line. If you do want to start in tanking, taking ouncture from sword and shield is absolutely imperative as it is the only taunt that is available to you at low levels, inner fire unfortunately is three tiers down the undaunted line and may need some time for it to be available.

Every role needs to learn how to block. Its sometime not enough to have shields up as having to cast those shields means taking some of the dps or heals needed. Most importantly, do not over taunt. Overtaunting means casting the taunt skill again and again within the 12s limit. This makes the bosses 'immune' to further taunting done by you and will proceed to the next available target or usually one with the lowest health. This is very important as the taunt button is not a spam abilities button.

Different classes have different playstyles to tanking. The best or the most easiest to learn tanking is dragonknights. They have an inbuilt tank rotation that really shine in massed mobs. They have multiple CC abilities that helps with tanking and controlling damage to the group. One of their passives are also amazing for resource management.

Sorcerer tanking is slightly different. They have really good abilities for damage mitigation, crowd control and high dps output( for a tank build) but their strength lies in magicka based tanking. This is due to their native magicka bonuses and also how the class synergises with magicka builds. A quick shattering prison, lightning form, endless fury will basically allow you to go balls out on mobs and have all of them aggro on you while you deal damage is hilarious.

NightBlades are awesome pseudo tanks, they are at ease with both magicka based and stamina based tank builds but they have good bonuses to armor and are a beast at regaining resources simply because of one ability: Siphoning strikes. They are also good at a good amount of dps but really fall out on damage mitigation though if the stars aligned for your fights, with Mirage, Refreshing path and sap essence, you basically wont be able to die as you self heal your way to victory.

Templars also make good tanks though they excel far more being a Healer. With this in mind though, a magicka based Templar tank can help with the groups survivability and Damage mitigation with their amazing group heals. There is also repentance, which basically regains your health and stamina based on the number of corpses. This is not that reliable on single target bosses that do not generate adds so its something quite situational for me.

Each class has its pros and cons so look into each one of them and decide which is the best for you. Most importantly, have fun with what you are doing. Hope to see you in-game as a tank!

-RavenSworn

NBrookus

Wow, lots of good things to think about here. I didn't even consider turning the boss so the cone effects only hits me. Duh.

I usually group with my hubbie who's a good healer, so I don't have to think about that very often other than learning how to use activate his perks to best effect. (That and if I hear a yelp from his direction IRL I know he's in trouble.)

What DO you do about DPS guys (& gals) who charge in ahead and get slaughtered while the rest of the team is still around the corner? As a relative noob, I don't want to be all "you're doing it wrong" -- but they are.

Do the guilds do training runs/grinds?

RavenSworn

Well, the guild that I am in, Lone Wolf Help and Corvus Fratenalis, helps out with dungeon runs and group sessions. Its really active and really for people who either just started the game or veterans even.

Holler for MissBizz, Morgueblade, Nestor or even me RavenSworn ingame for lone wolf help or Noblenerd for Corvus Fratenalis. Pretty sure will be more than glad to have you onboard!

And yes, you can join up to 5 player guilds so if you have a slot for two, i'd highly recommend these two guilds.

And for dps who charge in, leave them be. They will die and you dont have to res them. I dont see infantry running into a pitched battle while they have a tank so let them learn the hard way.

Ranique

NBrookus wrote: »

What DO you do about DPS guys (& gals) who charge in ahead and get slaughtered while the rest of the team is still around the corner? As a relative noob, I don't want to be all "you're doing it wrong" -- but they are.

Cause it happens relativly often I use shielded assault to counter it. For the rest it is mainly a matter of teamwork.

So a typical conversation of teamwork could be.

dps1: the one being dead
dps2: "How on earth did you die"
dps1: "the healer didn't heal me"
healer: "I'm here to heal the tank, not to heal wannabe tanks"
you: "next time if you want to live, stay behind me!"

It is the combination of reactions that most often impress people better as one taking all the hits. You might be a tank in game, but you don't need to be the tank verbally

yodased

1. overtaunting. it's real.
2. its your job to take on anything that can 1 shot the other players
3. its your job to hold aggro on the boss
4. its your job to pull mobs off the healer
5. its your goal to interrupt long casts
6. its your goal to also put some damage/threat out

NBrookus

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Well, the guild that I am in, Lone Wolf Help and Corvus Fratenalis, helps out with dungeon runs and group sessions. Its really active and really for people who either just started the game or veterans even.

Thanks. LWH looks nice and casual. I usually play in the early morning or the mid afternoon; both of these look like they have events a little late for me, tho. (No surprise there.)

UrQuan

yodased wrote: »

1. overtaunting. it's real.
2. its your job to take on anything that can 1 shot the other players
3. its your job to hold aggro on the boss
4. its your job to pull mobs off the healer
5. its your goal to interrupt long casts
6. its your goal to also put some damage/threat out

This is all true (although I'd say the DPS share the responsibility in keeping the healer from getting swarmed by mobs - they just do it in a different way by DPSing the mobs down), but it's worth noting that overtaunting will no longer be real after Imperial City drops. When tanking on PTS I was very surprised when one of the folks I was grouped with let me know that you can no longer overtaunt. I tested it, and sure enough overtaunting no longer causes you to lose aggro. That's only on PTS currently, though. No guarantees on whether it'll stay the same between now and when it hits live, but it seems likely. It's still a good idea to be in the habit of not taunting too often, though, if for no other reason than to preserve your resources.

UrQuan

NBrookus wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Well, the guild that I am in, Lone Wolf Help and Corvus Fratenalis, helps out with dungeon runs and group sessions. Its really active and really for people who either just started the game or veterans even.

Thanks. LWH looks nice and casual. I usually play in the early morning or the mid afternoon; both of these look like they have events a little late for me, tho. (No surprise there.)

The actual events for LWH tend to be in the evenings at a time when the largest number of people possible may be able to attend (so ideally after people in the PST time zone get home from work and before people in the EST time zone go to bed), but that's just the scheduled events (all of which are totally optional, as it is a casual guild). There are usually at least a couple of dozen folks online most times of the day, so you've got a decent chance of being able to find people to group with for dungeons and such. On weekends especially there tend to be more people on throughout the day. And @uniq_faznrb18_ESO is right in saying that we tend to enjoy helping people out who are new to group dungeons or new to a particular role, or just new in general