Carebears Ruin MMO's

RustedValor

As the title says, carebears tend to ruin MMOs for anyone that does not have their same playstyle. They tend to be extremely vocal about anything that encroaches on their item farming, dungeon runs, in-game marriages, and other carebear crap. Games that have had tremendous potential for pvp have all but tanked because the pvp was nerfed or altered in a way that ran off the pvp community. Then the game is done once the carebears find out that the endgame PvE can't hold their attention very long and they move on to the next shiny bauble.

Developers need to realize that their success can be guaranteed by the minority pvp community. After all the boring PvE has been done and the devs are finding it hard to put out new and original content/ideas to keep the carebears from whining, what is left to sustain the game's player base? It's the pvpers! We are the community that continues to play, provided the devs build excellent pvp systems, even after the rest of the game gets boring because we don't care about 90% of that junk. Look to history to show how the pvp community can keep games going indefinitely. UO still has a player base. Shadowbane had a player base to the very end and it is so strong even now that the game is being rebuilt by former players in an emulation project. EVE is huge. Pvp is the true key to a game's longevity.

So now that we've established that pvpers are what will keep this game alive for the long run what do we do to ensure that? The concept is two-fold: 1. Do not alter any pvp systems based on suggestions or advice from players that plan to play on pve zones or those with no real meaningful pvp experience(WoW does not count) and 2. There must be accountability in pvp to make it worthwhile. The former point is pretty self-explanatory so let me address the latter. Gankfests without accountability(i.e. any MMO that attempted to be pvp-centric to some degree and totally failed at developing and fleshing the system out[AoC was one]) will ruin any chance a game has at keeping the pvp community. While there will be a few people here that claim to be super hardcore because they played a game where people got camped for hours and whatever else, such a system is not hardcore -- it is boring and runs off real pvpers because it gets old after a week. A system that allows a FFA gankfest to happen can only succeed if those doing the ganking can be held accountable for their actions and be made to feel the repercussions. The prime example of this is Shadowbane. So you decided to come and gank a few lowbies and AFKers in our city? That's awesome because now I will be coming with 10 or 20 guildies to bash down your city walls tonight.

It is repurcussions such as those that allow for in-game politics to develop and keep people interested. It makes people think twice before they kill someone else. It deters random ganking(without stupid flagging systems) but allows for it. There must be a true political metagame in any successful pvp system and that just doesn't happen in a FFA gankfest system that has no accountability. The developers must heed to this because history has proven it to be so.

So here are some of take-away points that the developers need to pay attention to:

1. The pvp zones must be considered a completely separate entity and any design changes to the game must acknowledge that. Do not make changes to pvp on the pvp zones based on changes from the pve zones, i.e. carebears on a pve server whine that the system is still not carebear enough for them so you implement additional carebear changes. Also do not change PVE based on needed balance for PVP. This will allow both communities to have a better quality experience.

2. There must, must, must be accountability if you plan to make this game last. Killing other players needs to bear risk to both parties, and players that are killed need to have a way to retaliate against the players who are killing them.

3. Keep the number of pvp zones/campaigns to a very minimum number. Once the carebears figure out they can't handle or don't want to be on such a zone/campaign we'd like to still have good server populations that encourage PVP and not one Alliance dominating an entire map to have a place to farm and avoid PVP conflicts. Currently we have 3 dead survers and 1 pop locked competative server. I think buff server and campaign changes are a good start.

4. Player resources should be lootable, IE Telvarstones or gold from the Justice System PVP when it is launched.

5. If you actually invest the time into fleshing out the pvp system and making this game truly worthy of having pvp then you will have a guaranteed subscriber base for the life of the game.

Developers of today must face the fact that unless they are Blizzard, they are not going to keep the carebears' interest very long, at least in the US/EU. Sorry ESO, you are not the next WoW. Nor is any other MMO in the works. Face that fact and develop an amazing game that does not cater to that attempt.

IWannaBeATiger

Do we really need another thread whining about this?

Antubis

I think you are missing a few points...or you can not count to 10. Either way, can I have your stuff?

Endurance

Yeah to hell with the crybabies, tired of people wanting VR ranks removed so they can instantly go to PVP with their new characters

Soafee

What are you talking about? Blizzard did this and they ruined their game. World of Warcraft is in trouble more now then it's ever been. They just lost 3 million subscribers in a couple of months. Warlords of Draenor was complete and utter crap. They ruined the game by making it fit around their 3v3 arenas and are now paying the price.

Pangnirtung

RustedValor wrote: »

Developers need to realize that their success can be guaranteed by the minority pvp community.

Really? I don't believe that to be true. If it were this would be a mainly PVP game cause you can't sell what ppl won't buy.

Ysne58

Frankly, I've seen as many complaints from PvP'rs and PvE'rs. You provide no actual data to support the conclusions in your 1st paragraph. The logic in your first paragraph is a big fail. That wipes out all of your other arguments.

VoidBlue

what about the carebear cousins? those non bear carebears seems pretty nifty!

but as a non pvper, pve can never get old or boring. you get 8 toon slots (i believe) thats alot of content V16 for them all, gearing them all up, farming CP, each one having a different play style (obviously different class, atleast 4x2 if 8 slots is indeed true)

i care not for pvp so you can have all the pvp you want the way you want. im not gonna voice any opinions or concerns about pvp at all because i will have millions of hours of pve fun to look forward too

Acrolas

Developers who work on content for more than a year and are still "I don't know. We'll see how the dust settles." about core mechanics 45 days prior to its release ruin MMOs.

technohic

I'm not big on labeling them, although I do get tired of some of the blatant just crying.

I think there are options for everyone to be happy, but I am not willing to give up the lootable stones in this case as I think it will be fun for PVP. They just need their own way to earn some other currency and gear that is NOT encroaching on what these stones are planned to be.

I want them to have fun, but not by diminishing the system I am very much excited for

grumlins

IWannaBeATiger wrote: »

Do we really need another thread whining about this?

Right because we actually need PVP exploit capabilities by other players because that's what makes PVP successful according to the OP. All anyone's called for so far is the removal of exploitability of the stone looting from corpses because we all know this is going to be an area where zergs will happen and if everyone is open to looting there will be people who just hang around waiting for the opportunity to loot a person they didn't take out.

But the OP wants this option apparently because he thinks it will be kool to allow exploits in a game with no pvp justice system.

One word for a game that already doesn't have an adequate pvp justice system, Archeage.

Nyghthowler

RustedValor wrote: » Developers need to realize that their success can be guaranteed by the minority pvp community.


Sure, look at all the other PvP, full loot, gank fest MMO's that are a raging success.
Oh wait, there aren't any.....

I'm all for you gank squad ********* to have a totally PvP existence where PvE'ers don't intrude. But if the developers, in there INFINATE WISDOM and history of SUCCESSFULL CHOICES decide to put PvE quests into those areas then there needs to be a way to opt out of engaging in PvP and just focus on the part that entertains the individual.

Tandor

I don't know where the OP gets the notion that only MMOs that cater for the PvPers at the expense of the PvEers survive in the long-term. The evidence of EQ, EQ2, LotRO and AoC to name but a few would suggest otherwise, and as for the blessed WoW, the decline in that game began as soon as Blizzard destroyed the PvE by dumbing it down so severely. If he wants to play a PvP-centric game then there are plenty out there to choose from, but ESO isn't one of them and never will be.

UTG_Zilla

Idk the carebears were kinda funny in Diablo 3...

Love_Chunks

Wait wait wait... is this guy suggesting that pvers are ruining pvp? LOL! Have you been living under rock for the last year OP? Most if not all nerfs to skills were due to pvp whiners.

RustedValor

Love_Chunks wrote: »

Wait wait wait... is this guy suggesting that pvers are ruining pvp? LOL! Have you been living under rock for the last year OP? Most if not all nerfs to skills were due to pvp whiners.

If you actually read the post I specifically mention that balance changes in PVP and PVE should be completely isolated from one another and treated as 2 completely separate things.

phairdon

Love_Chunks wrote: »

Wait wait wait... is this guy suggesting that pvers are ruining pvp? LOL! Have you been living under rock for the last year OP? Most if not all nerfs to skills were due to pvp whiners.

You get this in other MMO forums too. Supposedly the game is all about pvp/world vs world etc.

This being said. At least content is being introduced for pvp side of this game and this is a good thing. As the game needs to cater to all players.

The Uninvited

Is there an option to ignore people on the forum?

Psychobunni

Rather than read o' wall o' text that I'm sure isn't "constructive", how about @RustedValor make a list for us of successful pvp only mmo's people are still playing (ie: not some 20 year old game modern pve based mmo's destroyed).

*won't hold breath

Rev Rielle

RustedValor wrote: »

...Developers need to realize that their success can be guaranteed by the minority pvp community...

What you've written is so far from the truth.
It's honestly scary some players believe this.
I'm not sure what MMO you're playing but it certainly doesn't sounds like it's ESOTU.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Oh joy another thread trying to divide the community even more between PvE and PvP. Stop it already ESO was designed around both PvE and PvP and thus all changes that are coming effect both. That's the point of IC to bring PvE to PvP and brings PvE players to PvP and dip there toes in PvP to see if they like it. So you "hard core PvPers' are not desiding the game for the entire community ZoS is. So please stop the QQ about how you guys arent the center of ZoS universe.

GreySix

Psychobunni wrote: »

Rather than read o' wall o' text that I'm sure isn't "constructive", how about @RustedValor make a list for us of successful pvp only mmo's people are still playing (ie: not some 20 year old game modern pve based mmo's destroyed).

*won't hold breath

Isn't Eve Online mostly PvP?

BoloBoffin

Thank you, true ESO:TU player.

Kaitona

I call this Carebear "Gankfest" - can he join your leet PvP team?

GreySix

By the way, those calling others carebears...

Unless you're wiling to lose absolutely everything when your character is killed, starting over from scratch a the character generation screen with no gold, CP, or anything...

You're a pathetic weakling and milk-drinker, and I laugh in your face.

Draxys

Lost cause unfortunately, a large chunk of the dedicated PvP population left when they took over a month to fix the game-breaking problems that the lighting patch caused (and in true stubbornness, they chose not to truly fix anything but put patches on the holes, putting more emphasis on the look instead of the performance). The rest of us have either been trickling out over the past year or biding our time until a better PvP option comes along. They've never cared to keep the PvP population around, they made that obvious from the start.

Psychobunni

GreySix wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Rather than read o' wall o' text that I'm sure isn't "constructive", how about @RustedValor make a list for us of successful pvp only mmo's people are still playing (ie: not some 20 year old game modern pve based mmo's destroyed).

*won't hold breath

Isn't Eve Online mostly PvP?

I said "pvp only mmo's" I have no idea the pvp/pve rate in Eve, it's space junk (imo) and I wouldnt touch it.

The point is for all the QQ "carebears are ruining mmo's"... DESPITE THE FACT THAT EVERY NERF SINCE LAUNCH WAS BECAUSE PVP QQ..that no game that is "pvp only" can possibly top pve games with pvp on the side

Why is that if PVE ruins the games?

Antubis

Eve is actually an amazing game where decisions actually matter and have consequences. But that is irrelevant to thread. Carry on...

Xjcon

Realy? The small % that pvp only are going to sustain the game? I think you are delusional. The bigger the player base the more money the company makes. If they don't make enough to pay the bills it's lights out. GG....nice try at saying people who don't play it the way you do are carebears.

RustedValor

GreySix wrote: »

By the way, those calling others carebears...

Unless you're wiling to lose absolutely everything when your character is killed, starting over from scratch a the character generation screen with no gold, CP, or anything...

You're a pathetic weakling and milk-drinker, and I laugh in your face.

Diablo 2 Hardcore, Shadowbane, EVE online, Darkfall, UO. Played em, loved em. Unfortunatelly those games are now dated and Diablo 3 has no real PVP to speak of.

RustedValor

Psychobunni wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Rather than read o' wall o' text that I'm sure isn't "constructive", how about @RustedValor make a list for us of successful pvp only mmo's people are still playing (ie: not some 20 year old game modern pve based mmo's destroyed).

*won't hold breath

Isn't Eve Online mostly PvP?

I said "pvp only mmo's" I have no idea the pvp/pve rate in Eve, it's space junk (imo) and I wouldnt touch it.

The point is for all the QQ "carebears are ruining mmo's"... DESPITE THE FACT THAT EVERY NERF SINCE LAUNCH WAS BECAUSE PVP QQ..that no game that is "pvp only" can possibly top pve games with pvp on the side

Why is that if PVE ruins the games?

Leage of Legends. PVP game with RPG elements, it has the largest player base in the world.