A startling discovery about Werewolf.

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cjthibs
cjthibs
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So...way back in the day, ZOS told us they always wanted to make Werewolf a toggle but there were 'technical limitations' or something like that...which left a lot of us wondering...'If you already have the code for a toggle-able Ultimate... (Overload) Why would it be difficult to attach that class or method or whatever to this Ultimate, with some modifications of course?'

I think I've figured out why...
Unlike Overload, which leaves your skill points alone, Werewolf seems to refund all skill points in EVERY skill line except Werewolf when you transform.
My guess this was to prevent folks from slotting other skills while transformed. (And I guess most of us didn't look hard enough to notice...probably because we have to run like hell and 'feed the meter' as I like to call it just to stay in Werewolf form.)

Either way, the question came up in another thread, (Which is ironically enough in the Developer Discussion sub-forum and hasn't had any Developer attention in 9 months...but I digress), as to which passives were still active and which were not while transformed. Well, I might have the answer.

Could this be the reason why damage mitigation is so absolutely terrible as a Werewolf? No passives at all?!

I have linked screenshots below, showing that I do not appear to have any skills unlocked from all types of skill lines:
Class, Weapon, Armor, Alliance War, Guild, Crafting, and Racial skill lines are -ALL- empty.

My question is this:
If you wanted to make Werewolf Transformation a toggle-able Ultimate and still only allow skills from the Werewolf skill line, could you not set a conditional for the Transformed state to only allow skills from that skill line? Is it really necessary to invalidate all skills? And is it really fair to only allow certain passives to apply to Werewolves when all Passives apply to Vampires?

So full disclosure here:
This is from a VR14 character who has skills unlocked from every one of the skill lines listed below, you can even see in the left hand side of the images how many I have invested in each. It still shows the numbers of points invested...so there may be some question as to whether or not these are still being computed...but...this is definitely different than Overload.

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here, but it would be nice to get a definitive answer about how our other skills apply to our Werewolf Transformation.

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  • Waylander
    Waylander
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    This is what I was thinking after seeing Left Lucy go into his skills as werewolf, I was surprised he hadn't taken some passives.

    So this would mean all races/classes are the same when in wolf form except for CP and armour sets?
    Nocturnal - AD Oceanic PvP Guild
    Waylander
    Frankie
    Krylla
    Uniter
    Macgyverr
    Ivy
  • silky_soft
    silky_soft
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    Hah, that's terrible. Who did this? The work experience kid? I guess this is the reason I am so gumby when I transform.

    Would be nice if they let the passives from the WW tree to work while not transformed. Give them a 50% reduction or just halve them and then give them a 100% buff while in WW form.
    Streak moves you faster then speed cap.
    Dragon Leap and Fossilise CC happens at the start of the activation not at the contact point.
    Battlespirit 8m range buff to 28m skills needs to be removed.
    My heavy attacks still don't work and I still get stuck in ambush.
  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    Seems that way?
    Who knows what's actually being respected on the back-end. Doesn't look like we have any idea other than speculation.
  • Valve
    Valve
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    Yes, it removes all the passives and skills apart from the ones located in the werewolf skill line.

    I remember being in werewolf form when trying to use intimidate as part of a quest; I found it rather ironic that a werewolf couldn't intimidate someone...

    Of course, I left werewolf form and was immediately able to intimidate the NPC to continue the quest.

    At the end of the day, I'm not too bothered about this as being a werewolf is pretty useless outside of the +15% stamina regen, but maybe if we actually had access to all our passives the transformation would be worthwhile.
    Edited by Valve on July 14, 2015 3:40AM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyerx4
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    3rd Anniversary!
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  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    Valve wrote: »
    At the end of the day, I'm not too bothered about this as being a werewolf is pretty useless outside of the +15% stamina regen, but maybe if we actually had access to all our passives the transformation would be worthwhile.

    I'm bothered because this is the reason why it's useless. Fix this, make it a toggle like they admitted they wanted to...and Werewolf is viable again.

    But your opinion seems to be the majority opinion. Why bother... *Eeyore voice*
    Edited by cjthibs on July 14, 2015 3:42AM
  • Valve
    Valve
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    cjthibs wrote: »

    I'm bothered because this is the reason why it's useless. Fix this, make it a toggle like they admitted they wanted to...and Werewolf is viable again.

    But your opinion seems to be the majority opinion. Why bother... *Eeyore voice*

    Hey, I'd love them to do something about this.

    I've actually considered respeccing because I've unlocked all the werewolf skills and passives and with the current state of being a werewolf in ESO it was a waste of skill points.

    The reason I'm not so bothered is because I can't really see them fixing it. I have other problems with being a werewolf that probably still exist.

    Does the pounce attack still randomly get stuck mid animation leaving you unable to attack for several seconds? Probably.

    I'd also love it if they changed it so devouring enemies would not be cancelled when starting to type. Devouring is pretty much the only time anyone should be able to do anything without wasting the timer, however starting to type anything will cancel the devour animation and not give you anymore time on the timer.

    Bodies vanishing mid-devour is annoying as hell, they shouldn't be removed when being devoured, but they'll probably never change it.

    Maybe one day we will have it toggle-able and maybe we'll have access to non-werewolf passives, but looking at all the past changes, I can't see them doing anything in people's interests anytime soon.

    I'm sorry, that's just how I see it.
    Edited by Valve on July 14, 2015 3:53AM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyerx4
    Flawless Conqueror all Classes
    3rd Anniversary!
    Guar Squad
  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    @Valve , I hear ya.

    Maybe this is stupidly optimistic, but maybe, just maybe, this thread will be the one that -FINALLY- gets them to notice that nobody has fun with Werewolf other than in run-of-the-mill leveling.

    How many threads does it really take?
  • Lefty_Lucy
    Lefty_Lucy
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    Checking your skills windows in Werewolf form can be a bit misleading. Further testing must be done to see what is actually happening in the background.

    As shown in your screenshots, it looks like you lose all passives when in Werewolf form. However, if you check your stats, you'll notice that class based passives which do not have a conditional requirement are actually still affecting your stats in Werewolf form.

    Here is the quick test I performed when researching this topic before publishing my Werewolf build.

    Nightblade's have a passive called Refreshing Shadows which increases their base stamina regeneration by 30%. Let's see if this 30% holds when transitioning into Werewolf form:

    Step 1: Remove all skill points from Refreshing Shadows; observe stamina regen in human form, then observe stamina regen in Werewolf form.

    Human form (0 points in Refreshing Shadows): Observed stam regen = 350
    YsbHrgA.png

    Werewolf form (0 points in Refreshing Shadows): Observed stam regen = 350
    Su8pWlx.jpg


    Step 2: Apply 2 skill points to Refreshing Shadows; observe stamina regen in human form, then observe stamina regen in Werewolf form.

    Human form (2 points in Refreshing Shadows): Observed stam regen = 504
    kY717ge.png

    Werewolf form (2 points in Refreshing Shadows): Observed stam regen = 504 !
    tllm13A.jpg


    Results:
    With 2 points invested in Refreshing Shadows in human form, the increased stamina regen transfers over to Werewolf form even though the skill window in Werewolf form shows 0 points invested.


    Thus, the following passives will follow you into Werewolf form (even though your skills window in Werewolf form makes them look like you don't actually have them unlocked):

    Nightblade:
    Refreshing Shadows - Increase Stamina Regen +30%

    Templar:
    Balanced Warrior - Increase Weapon Damage +6%, Increase Spell Resist +2000
    Restoring Spirit - Reduce MP, Stamina, and Ult costs by -4%

    Sorcerer:
    Unholy Knowledge - Reduce Magicka and Stamina costs by -5%
    Power Stone - Reduce Ultimate cost by -15%
    Capacitor - Increase Magicka Regen +10%

    Dragonknight:
    Iron Skin - Block damage increased +10%
    Scaled Armor - Increase Spell Resist +2500
    Battle Roar - Heal HP, Magicka, and Stamina upon transforming to Werewolf
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  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    That doesn't necessary mean the skills are being respected.
    I find it equally likely that the game is just capturing those stats and keeping the values while temporarily deactivating/refunding all skills. The results would be similar.

    As I said earlier, I may be jumping to conclusions, none of us can know for sure how this all works unless ZoS tells us, but it looks quite odd to me.

    Even if all passives are still being considered, this is still likely the reason for the 'technical difficulties.'
    If there is an extra safeguard in place to keep us from swapping other skills instead of our Werewolf skills, which it appears this is just that, this is likely what don't want to change.

    I am not an expert programmer by any means, but I do use some of these same skills professionally and it seems to me that it wouldn't be terribly difficult to add a state definition for a transformed werewolf and either have predefined positioned for werewolf skills on the skill bar (Locked of course) based on that or add conditional checks to Werewolf skills so that no other skills could be slotted while in that state.
  • Cinna
    Cinna
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    The snapshot of stats at the point of transformation works only so far, it carries over passives like refreshing shadows but not bonuses from skills being slotted such as haemorrhage or structured entropy I believe.

    I've found ww to be good for one thing, that is leveling 2 skill lines at the same time :D (werewolf and the equipped stam weapon)
  • Brasseurfb16_ESO
    Brasseurfb16_ESO
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    Lefty_Lucy wrote: »
    Nightblade:
    Refreshing Shadows - Increase Stamina Regen +30%

    Templar:
    Balanced Warrior - Increase Weapon Damage +6%, Increase Spell Resist +2000
    Restoring Spirit - Reduce MP, Stamina, and Ult costs by -4%

    Sorcerer:
    Unholy Knowledge - Reduce Magicka and Stamina costs by -5%
    Power Stone - Reduce Ultimate cost by -15%
    Capacitor - Increase Magicka Regen +10%

    Dragonknight:
    Iron Skin - Block damage increased +10%
    Scaled Armor - Increase Spell Resist +2500
    Battle Roar - Heal HP, Magicka, and Stamina upon transforming to Werewolf

    On a side note,

    Armour and racial passives also transfer over when in WW form while weapon passives do not.
    Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on July 14, 2015 11:05AM
  • suelothvar
    suelothvar
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    Tbf if you want all your passives in wolf form. Or all your wolf passives while in human form, like vamp. Then you should also get all the negatives aswell.

    Atm, you can embrace ww with zero points purely for the Stam bonus, with no downsides and contrary to what my guild argue, you are a ww regardless of if you shift, so poison and fighters guild should still effect your furry Jacob wannabe arse.
    Seraklan - Nightshade EU
    Beardybpbear. Xbox1

    No console text chat = discrimination against the deaf!
  • Lefty_Lucy
    Lefty_Lucy
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    suelothvar wrote: »
    Tbf if you want all your passives in wolf form. Or all your wolf passives while in human form, like vamp. Then you should also get all the negatives aswell.

    Atm, you can embrace ww with zero points purely for the Stam bonus, with no downsides and contrary to what my guild argue, you are a ww regardless of if you shift, so poison and fighters guild should still effect your furry Jacob wannabe arse.

    I agree with this and would be perfectly fine with it.
    Competetive small scale PvP'er.
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  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

    I agree with this and would be perfectly fine with it.

    Well if they make it like vamps , with Op Aoe, passives always apply, magicka regen as well, escape skill, etc...then sure, but make the transformation a toggle and give us a better ultimate.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • cjthibs
    cjthibs
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    Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

    I agree with this and would be perfectly fine with it.

    Me too.
  • DarkForceLegend
    DarkForceLegend
    Soul Shriven
    Has anyone tried to actually spend points into skills while in werewolf form? I know you can assign skills while in form... but I haven't tried spending skill points in form.
    GT: DarkForceLegend

    Krona
    Level 35+
    Wood Elf Werewolf, Night Blade
    Duel Wield and Bow
    Level 30+ Enchanter
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