Question for a Developer

LazyLewis

I would very much appreciate a reply (hate to sound like ass) but I don't want to some generic response of "We are currently working changes on multiple skill lines etc.. etc...."

So I have heard that Proxy Det is changing at some point soon where it will do more damage to the people that it hits? (I might be wrong but either way that's only part of the issue). So as you will remember ZoS you changed a lot of PvP Mechanics for 1.6+. Negates got nerfed (thank you) Immovable was nerfed (thank you again) because all these skills were being stacked and it was stupid. You could not knock over/cc people because everyone ran Immovable. Sorcerer groups were running 10+ negates which they stacked and got unlimited resources back and was God Mode Overpoweredness. All these got changed because everyone was using them all the same time. There was not any variation in builds. Everyone was running and doing the same things. You guys stepped up and changed that so the game could be more explored more different in variations of builds and styles and so on.

The game has sadly regressed back to its former self. Players have found the 'best build' again and there are groups who all just run the same builds like a factory line production. Yes I'm going to mention Nirn for the 900th time and yes this is changing (why it wasn't changed 3 months ago with a simple mechanically scaling fix I don't know). The main issue I have is with Proximity Detonation and its other morph. You have provided players with a skill with the correct build can hit for almost 20k. 20k!!!!!! Thats 70-80% of most players lives in Cyrodiil. Every group and every single guild who competitively PvP all use this now. This skill was originally designed to fight Zergs but the zergs are using it AND YOUR BUFFING IT? And now with shields being lowered in Cyrodiil i cannot even imagine what is going to happen now.

I do not care that Proxy is a channelled ability and can be interrupted. The cast time should be trippled! It needs to have some sort of HUGE downside to using it. Like gaining Major Defile on yourself, losing magika recovery, lowering Max Magika, a 5 Minute cooldown ANYTHING PLEASE. Groups of 16, 20, 24 are using this as a group and just instantly wiping enemies within a second.

An awesome idea would be to only take damage from one Enemy Players Detonation every 5-10 seconds. ZOS IT IS TO STRONG. II can hit people for 18k with it. It is stronger than most ultimate's.

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

Wearing my Damage Mitigation Build here.Please post your screenshots of this happening to you.

ToRelax

They said base damage will be lowered and the damage scales with enemies hit in the last ESO Live.
If done correctly that's exactly the change that was needed here.
So wtf are you complaining about?

IxSTALKERxI

LazyLewis wrote: »

That death recap is perfection! Co-ordinated prox dets with one steel tordado for icing on the cake. Couldn't of done it any better, well done to that group. Such a beautiful thing.


As for the rest of your post:

Battle spirit reduced damage buff is going from 20% to 50% so there will be less 'burst' damage. Everything in that death recap will be lowered by 37%. Eric also said that the base damage of magicka det will be slightly lowered.

Now, as for the scaling based on targets hit. In that death recap you got hit by 5 players, maybe more. So that means that there was 4-5+ enemy players within an 8m radius. In 1.7 if you were to have prox det on you would have the upperhand provided you don't also have a bunch of allies around you. So it's going to hurt 'blobs' that co-ordinate many prox dets (or any aoe for that matter) on the same person because doing so they will be venerable to prox det. Anyone that runs tight groups within 8m of each other are gonna need to keep an eye out for prox, or wipe, which is going to add a lot more reactive play and individual skill from all the group members.

Prox will still have it's problems but it will be better in 1.7 than 1.6. Pugs and solo players scattered throughout the field between alessia and sej might actually stand a chance.

Earendal

LazyLewis wrote: »

I wonder what group that is. LOL.

AhPook_Is_Here

LazyLewis wrote: »

I would very much appreciate a reply (hate to sound like ass) but I don't want to some generic response of "We are currently working changes on multiple skill lines etc.. etc...."

So I have heard that Proxy Det is changing at some point soon where it will do more damage to the people that it hits? (I might be wrong but either way that's only part of the issue). So as you will remember ZoS you changed a lot of PvP Mechanics for 1.6+. Negates got nerfed (thank you) Immovable was nerfed (thank you again) because all these skills were being stacked and it was stupid. You could not knock over/cc people because everyone ran Immovable. Sorcerer groups were running 10+ negates which they stacked and got unlimited resources back and was God Mode Overpoweredness. All these got changed because everyone was using them all the same time. There was not any variation in builds. Everyone was running and doing the same things. You guys stepped up and changed that so the game could be more explored more different in variations of builds and styles and so on.

The game has sadly regressed back to its former self. Players have found the 'best build' again and there are groups who all just run the same builds like a factory line production. Yes I'm going to mention Nirn for the 900th time and yes this is changing (why it wasn't changed 3 months ago with a simple mechanically scaling fix I don't know). The main issue I have is with Proximity Detonation and its other morph. You have provided players with a skill with the correct build can hit for almost 20k. 20k!!!!!! Thats 70-80% of most players lives in Cyrodiil. Every group and every single guild who competitively PvP all use this now. This skill was originally designed to fight Zergs but the zergs are using it AND YOUR BUFFING IT? And now with shields being lowered in Cyrodiil i cannot even imagine what is going to happen now.

I do not care that Proxy is a channelled ability and can be interrupted. The cast time should be trippled! It needs to have some sort of HUGE downside to using it. Like gaining Major Defile on yourself, losing magika recovery, lowering Max Magika, a 5 Minute cooldown ANYTHING PLEASE. Groups of 16, 20, 24 are using this as a group and just instantly wiping enemies within a second.

An awesome idea would be to only take damage from one Enemy Players Detonation every 5-10 seconds. ZOS IT IS TO STRONG. II can hit people for 18k with it. It is stronger than most ultimate's.

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

Wearing my Damage Mitigation Build here.Please post your screenshots of this happening to you.

It's funny because looking at the blacked out death recap I know exactly who hit you and could almost write the names back in. What I think is going to be really funny about the new version is 4-5 Magicka NB stacking up, activating, ambushing in and dark cloaking followed by profit. It's going to be super lulzy, and I am sure just about EVERYBODY has figured this out already, even the people who have been begging for these changes. It's really going to wreck the big zergs, and that group that blew you up isn't one of them.

BigTone

I like the idea of proxy or inevitable det doing more damage based on number of players hit. Want my solution to avoid blobs all casting it at the same time? If your det ring comes in contact with another friendly player's det ring, the damage is halved, for each ring hit.

vortexman11

LazyLewis wrote: »

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

If a 12 man group can wipe 60 people the problem isn't the 12 man group, or the game, its the 60 people. Currently there is nothing giving that 12 man group an edge over those 60, the 60 man group can choose to run 60 prox dets just as the 12 man chooses to run 12.

That group of 12 is winning because of timing, organization, and coordination, if you want that group of 60 people to be unmatched in Cyrodiil and run over everything, then that'll break the game, and currently PvP is taking steps in that direction.

Takllin

BigTone wrote: »

I like the idea of proxy or inevitable det doing more damage based on number of players hit. Want my solution to avoid blobs all casting it at the same time? If your det ring comes in contact with another friendly player's det ring, the damage is halved, for each ring hit.

Too much calculations for the servers to handle, we need to decrease traffic not increase it.

Also a much needed change that will make Prox Det better and more useful.

Snit

I'd like to see Prox Det damage really take off at the 25th target, in a "hockey stick" trendline. The worst thing in Cyrodiil are the guilds that run 2+ full raid groups and ball up like rat-kings.

Ezareth

LazyLewis wrote: »

I would very much appreciate a reply (hate to sound like ass) but I don't want to some generic response of "We are currently working changes on multiple skill lines etc.. etc...."

So I have heard that Proxy Det is changing at some point soon where it will do more damage to the people that it hits? (I might be wrong but either way that's only part of the issue). So as you will remember ZoS you changed a lot of PvP Mechanics for 1.6+. Negates got nerfed (thank you) Immovable was nerfed (thank you again) because all these skills were being stacked and it was stupid. You could not knock over/cc people because everyone ran Immovable. Sorcerer groups were running 10+ negates which they stacked and got unlimited resources back and was God Mode Overpoweredness. All these got changed because everyone was using them all the same time. There was not any variation in builds. Everyone was running and doing the same things. You guys stepped up and changed that so the game could be more explored more different in variations of builds and styles and so on.

The game has sadly regressed back to its former self. Players have found the 'best build' again and there are groups who all just run the same builds like a factory line production. Yes I'm going to mention Nirn for the 900th time and yes this is changing (why it wasn't changed 3 months ago with a simple mechanically scaling fix I don't know). The main issue I have is with Proximity Detonation and its other morph. You have provided players with a skill with the correct build can hit for almost 20k. 20k!!!!!! Thats 70-80% of most players lives in Cyrodiil. Every group and every single guild who competitively PvP all use this now. This skill was originally designed to fight Zergs but the zergs are using it AND YOUR BUFFING IT? And now with shields being lowered in Cyrodiil i cannot even imagine what is going to happen now.

I do not care that Proxy is a channelled ability and can be interrupted. The cast time should be trippled! It needs to have some sort of HUGE downside to using it. Like gaining Major Defile on yourself, losing magika recovery, lowering Max Magika, a 5 Minute cooldown ANYTHING PLEASE. Groups of 16, 20, 24 are using this as a group and just instantly wiping enemies within a second.

An awesome idea would be to only take damage from one Enemy Players Detonation every 5-10 seconds. ZOS IT IS TO STRONG. II can hit people for 18k with it. It is stronger than most ultimate's.

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

Wearing my Damage Mitigation Build here.Please post your screenshots of this happening to you.

I love spamming venom arrow at this group as I see them. I just hear "pong, pong pong".

You don't cure a problem by addressing a symptom. Changes to mana detonation will only lead to something else replacing it. The zerg-ball mentality must be crushed by deincentivizing it and encouraging players to spread out more than clump up.

LazyLewis

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

That death recap is perfection! Co-ordinated prox dets with one steel tordado for icing on the cake. Couldn't of done it any better, well done to that group. Such a beautiful thing.


As for the rest of your post:

Battle spirit reduced damage buff is going from 20% to 50% so there will be less 'burst' damage. Everything in that death recap will be lowered by 37%. Eric also said that the base damage of magicka det will be slightly lowered.

Now, as for the scaling based on targets hit. In that death recap you got hit by 5 players, maybe more. So that means that there was 4-5+ enemy players within an 8m radius. In 1.7 if you were to have prox det on you would have the upperhand provided you don't also have a bunch of allies around you. So it's going to hurt 'blobs' that co-ordinate many prox dets (or any aoe for that matter) on the same person because doing so they will be venerable to prox det. Anyone that runs tight groups within 8m of each other are gonna need to keep an eye out for prox, or wipe, which is going to add a lot more reactive play and individual skill from all the group members.

Prox will still have it's problems but it will be better in 1.7 than 1.6. Pugs and solo players scattered throughout the field between alessia and sej might actually stand a chance.

Mate, you think it's good that PvP revolves around one well timed co-ordinated skill ? Yes it takes teamwork, yes it takes coordination but is this all competitive has to offer now?

LazyLewis

Ezareth wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

I would very much appreciate a reply (hate to sound like ass) but I don't want to some generic response of "We are currently working changes on multiple skill lines etc.. etc...."

So I have heard that Proxy Det is changing at some point soon where it will do more damage to the people that it hits? (I might be wrong but either way that's only part of the issue). So as you will remember ZoS you changed a lot of PvP Mechanics for 1.6+. Negates got nerfed (thank you) Immovable was nerfed (thank you again) because all these skills were being stacked and it was stupid. You could not knock over/cc people because everyone ran Immovable. Sorcerer groups were running 10+ negates which they stacked and got unlimited resources back and was God Mode Overpoweredness. All these got changed because everyone was using them all the same time. There was not any variation in builds. Everyone was running and doing the same things. You guys stepped up and changed that so the game could be more explored more different in variations of builds and styles and so on.

The game has sadly regressed back to its former self. Players have found the 'best build' again and there are groups who all just run the same builds like a factory line production. Yes I'm going to mention Nirn for the 900th time and yes this is changing (why it wasn't changed 3 months ago with a simple mechanically scaling fix I don't know). The main issue I have is with Proximity Detonation and its other morph. You have provided players with a skill with the correct build can hit for almost 20k. 20k!!!!!! Thats 70-80% of most players lives in Cyrodiil. Every group and every single guild who competitively PvP all use this now. This skill was originally designed to fight Zergs but the zergs are using it AND YOUR BUFFING IT? And now with shields being lowered in Cyrodiil i cannot even imagine what is going to happen now.

I do not care that Proxy is a channelled ability and can be interrupted. The cast time should be trippled! It needs to have some sort of HUGE downside to using it. Like gaining Major Defile on yourself, losing magika recovery, lowering Max Magika, a 5 Minute cooldown ANYTHING PLEASE. Groups of 16, 20, 24 are using this as a group and just instantly wiping enemies within a second.

An awesome idea would be to only take damage from one Enemy Players Detonation every 5-10 seconds. ZOS IT IS TO STRONG. II can hit people for 18k with it. It is stronger than most ultimate's.

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

Wearing my Damage Mitigation Build here.Please post your screenshots of this happening to you.

I love spamming venom arrow at this group as I see them. I just hear "pong, pong pong".

You don't cure a problem by addressing a symptom. Changes to mana detonation will only lead to something else replacing it. The zerg-ball mentality must be crushed by deincentivizing it and encouraging players to spread out more than clump up.

Your exactly right on 'who' that group is. This group is full of amazing players who have so much more to offer to this game than just proxiying. Btw they do run larger groups than previous. This is not about zergs. This about making fights being worht more than 'well timed proxy bombs'. Am the only one who seriously likes longer competetive fights that last longer than a few seconds? Who can proxy the best wins? Its ridiculous.

Ezareth

LazyLewis wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

I would very much appreciate a reply (hate to sound like ass) but I don't want to some generic response of "We are currently working changes on multiple skill lines etc.. etc...."

So I have heard that Proxy Det is changing at some point soon where it will do more damage to the people that it hits? (I might be wrong but either way that's only part of the issue). So as you will remember ZoS you changed a lot of PvP Mechanics for 1.6+. Negates got nerfed (thank you) Immovable was nerfed (thank you again) because all these skills were being stacked and it was stupid. You could not knock over/cc people because everyone ran Immovable. Sorcerer groups were running 10+ negates which they stacked and got unlimited resources back and was God Mode Overpoweredness. All these got changed because everyone was using them all the same time. There was not any variation in builds. Everyone was running and doing the same things. You guys stepped up and changed that so the game could be more explored more different in variations of builds and styles and so on.

The game has sadly regressed back to its former self. Players have found the 'best build' again and there are groups who all just run the same builds like a factory line production. Yes I'm going to mention Nirn for the 900th time and yes this is changing (why it wasn't changed 3 months ago with a simple mechanically scaling fix I don't know). The main issue I have is with Proximity Detonation and its other morph. You have provided players with a skill with the correct build can hit for almost 20k. 20k!!!!!! Thats 70-80% of most players lives in Cyrodiil. Every group and every single guild who competitively PvP all use this now. This skill was originally designed to fight Zergs but the zergs are using it AND YOUR BUFFING IT? And now with shields being lowered in Cyrodiil i cannot even imagine what is going to happen now.

I do not care that Proxy is a channelled ability and can be interrupted. The cast time should be trippled! It needs to have some sort of HUGE downside to using it. Like gaining Major Defile on yourself, losing magika recovery, lowering Max Magika, a 5 Minute cooldown ANYTHING PLEASE. Groups of 16, 20, 24 are using this as a group and just instantly wiping enemies within a second.

An awesome idea would be to only take damage from one Enemy Players Detonation every 5-10 seconds. ZOS IT IS TO STRONG. II can hit people for 18k with it. It is stronger than most ultimate's.

I use to love it when fights lasted 5, 10.,15 minutes. Now fights are all over within a few seconds. Nothing is constant, everything is instant.

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

Wearing my Damage Mitigation Build here.Please post your screenshots of this happening to you.

I love spamming venom arrow at this group as I see them. I just hear "pong, pong pong".

You don't cure a problem by addressing a symptom. Changes to mana detonation will only lead to something else replacing it. The zerg-ball mentality must be crushed by deincentivizing it and encouraging players to spread out more than clump up.

Your exactly right on 'who' that group is. This group is full of amazing players who have so much more to offer to this game than just proxiying. Btw they do run larger groups than previous. This is not about zergs. This about making fights being worht more than 'well timed proxy bombs'. Am the only one who seriously likes longer competetive fights that last longer than a few seconds? Who can proxy the best wins? Its ridiculous.

As I think back through the past 100+ days played PvPing on my Sorc I can't really think of many fights that weren't over in seconds. It usually involved the superior group successfully stacking negates/meat + bats + impulse on top of the enemy group before they could respond. Longer fights were just an organized group against a disorganized zerg to the same effect....just more bodies taking a longer time to kill. I've seen the same kind of strategy employed by every major guild if grouped with or fought against. Try to gain the element of surprise and hit your enemy hard and fast before they have a chance to respond and "melt" them.

It took me awhile but I realized that that kind of fight was not PvP to me.

Thinking back I do recall on of the most enjoyable fights I had in group play was a (roughly) 12 v 16 against another good DC guild. It probably last for a good 2 minutes without a death in an open field outside of a resource and we all were going at it hard. Finally we landed the right combo of a negate + meat at the worst time for them and their entire group died in seconds just like that.

When dealing in group PvP and AoE abilities, that's the only way those kind of fights can end unfortunately ) =

Phoenix99

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

Minnesinger

Once again I feel I am defending something that I thought I wouldn´t. Take for example that EP group in question. You can´t hardly blame dedicated pvpers for choosing the most effective skills. Every group with an objective of destroying a bunch of enemies do the same with varied success. I enjoy small sclale gvg fights but when it is time to wreck the enemies you just have to think of the best result. Anyone suggesting that these groups should deploy different tactics must not know much about pvp in this game. I think you can play the way you want. If you don´t want to die of AoE spam go fight different fights. It isn´t as if someone makes you go against these groups. More so when everyone knows what way some groups fight. It is a different story to wreck some newbies/ low levels and farm them than to go head-to-head against a group of veteran pvpers. You know challenge. And you can also win these fights. Something is wrong if you die every time.

Ezareth

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

Phoenix99

Ezareth wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

Find the difference between design of PvP of these games vs the one of ESO and think hard why those are competitive and TESO is a casual PvP timesink that even devs have low on priority list.

Hektik_V

LazyLewis wrote: »

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

As it is right now everything about Cyrodiil encourages larger groups over smaller groups. The changes to ultimate gain, the increase in siege damage, the ability to CC through block, these are all things that give advantages to the larger group. You could even make the argument that Proximity Detonation is also a skill that favors larger groups opposed to smaller groups, because although our 12 man can all use Proximity Detonation, so can the 60 opponents.

Teargrants

Hektik_V wrote: »

LazyLewis wrote: »

Why is PvP going downhill? THIS IS WHY. 12 Man groups wiping 60 people within 1 minute.

As it is right now everything about Cyrodiil encourages larger groups over smaller groups. The changes to ultimate gain, the increase in siege damage, the ability to CC through block, these are all things that give advantages to the larger group. You could even make the argument that Proximity Detonation is also a skill that favors larger groups opposed to smaller groups, because although our 12 man can all use Proximity Detonation, so can the 60 opponents.

Group teabagging is just so impersonal though, I don't like losing that individual touch.

ToRelax

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

Find the difference between design of PvP of these games vs the one of ESO and think hard why those are competitive and TESO is a casual PvP timesink that even devs have low on priority list.

There are only 3 RPGs on that site.
The most important reason the ESO community can't develop esports is because there's no arena and a lot of technical problems.
If ZOS would focus on creating fair matches, I don't see why ESO shouldn't be on par with GW2 or WoW.

Phoenix99

ToRelax wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

Find the difference between design of PvP of these games vs the one of ESO and think hard why those are competitive and TESO is a casual PvP timesink that even devs have low on priority list.

There are only 3 RPGs on that site.
The most important reason the ESO community can't develop esports is because there's no arena and a lot of technical problems.
If ZOS would focus on creating fair matches, I don't see why ESO shouldn't be on par with GW2 or WoW.

There is also a vastly different design between combat design in those two and TESO.

IIRC both GW2 and WoW have Cooldowns next to the resource management of HP/mana/whatever.

Each of the games on the list focuses on resource management (HP/mana/ammo/etc.) and there is a difference between FPS/tanks vs MOBA/RTS/MMO that in the first category true aim skills are more visible than skill cooldowns and costs of the other section.

In all of those games that I've played grouping too much is punished hard, but so is the solo play in case of team games. you need to know when you can group up and when to spread out and work around resources and timings of skills/items usage and map control

I did not play GW2 or WoW, I've seen some gameplay footage from WoW Blizzcon though, when there was a break in SC2, but the design difference in PvP mechanics is visible at the first sight...

TESO is primarly PvE, same as diablo, and mechanics support it, via spamfest of skills. Both games are skillless in terms of PvP, hence diablo3 PvP died when they tried to implement it, and TESO PvP is a casual timesink when you are bored of PvE content.

Can you imagine watching TESO fights on a stream? Blob on blob with screen cluttered with spam that you can't even see what is going on?

This does not mean it cannot be fun. It can, and I enjoyed my ride couple of times with some organzied PvP guild, but to claim that it belongs to high skill PvP games is just ridiculous. Not with the current design... ever... even if arenas would be implemented.

1v1 is bad, because classes are not balanced vs each other. Areana group fights of 8v8 would be unenjoyable spam fest.

ToRelax

Phoenix99 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

Find the difference between design of PvP of these games vs the one of ESO and think hard why those are competitive and TESO is a casual PvP timesink that even devs have low on priority list.

There are only 3 RPGs on that site.
The most important reason the ESO community can't develop esports is because there's no arena and a lot of technical problems.
If ZOS would focus on creating fair matches, I don't see why ESO shouldn't be on par with GW2 or WoW.

There is also a vastly different design between combat design in those two and TESO.

IIRC both GW2 and WoW have Cooldowns next to the resource management of HP/mana/whatever.

Each of the games on the list focuses on resource management (HP/mana/ammo/etc.) and there is a difference between FPS/tanks vs MOBA/RTS/MMO that in the first category true aim skills are more visible than skill cooldowns and costs of the other section.

In all of those games that I've played grouping too much is punished hard, but so is the solo play in case of team games. you need to know when you can group up and when to spread out and work around resources and timings of skills/items usage and map control

I did not play GW2 or WoW, I've seen some gameplay footage from WoW Blizzcon though, when there was a break in SC2, but the design difference in PvP mechanics is visible at the first sight...

TESO is primarly PvE, same as diablo, and mechanics support it, via spamfest of skills. Both games are skillless in terms of PvP, hence diablo3 PvP died when they tried to implement it, and TESO PvP is a casual timesink when you are bored of PvE content.

Can you imagine watching TESO fights on a stream? Blob on blob with screen cluttered with spam that you can't even see what is going on?

This does not mean it cannot be fun. It can, and I enjoyed my ride couple of times with some organzied PvP guild, but to claim that it belongs to high skill PvP games is just ridiculous. Not with the current design... ever... even if arenas would be implemented.

1v1 is bad, because classes are not balanced vs each other. Areana group fights of 8v8 would be unenjoyable spam fest.

I can see teams of 3-5 players work very well tbh.
Did you ever participate in that kind of organized fights with some of the better Arena/Legend members?
It's certainly not the AoE spamfest you have in larger groups and a single player can make a great difference through clever use of his skills and good timing.
Just that ESO has no cooldowns doesn't mean it doesn't need skill to beat equally skilled players. In fact, I think cooldowns are merely a help to balance a game, and frankly, I don't like that system. Obviously, ZOS is not able to achieve good balance here either way though, so actual esports will have to stay a dream anyway.

Phoenix99

ToRelax wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

every competitive game is revolved around three things

1) Resource management
2) Cooldowns
3) Aiming skills and True aim

add to that things like positioning, skill synergy and map awareness with good communication in case of team games

TESO has

- near zero resource management if you have high enough gear with enchants and consumables, because of mad regens
- no cooldowns
- no true aim, just a few ground AoEs that require aimining

the only positioning that matters is that of forming a minimum 10 people blob with a healer, purger and lot of burst AoE dmg + communication of "stay tight"

This is as casual as you can get, but at the same time it deters many players from playing the PvP game, because, to be able to challenge the top you have to spend absurd amount of time or money on gear, levels and champion points. and worst of all there is little space for personal skill to shine. It is either, who has better grind -or- in case of equal grind, who gets a surprise jump on the other team. In some rare cases of a face off it is a blob on blob action and the team with better composition of dmg vs sustain wins the spam battle, or in some cases a drop of fight changing ultimate, like negate in a tower, which forces enemy to move and thus loose cohesion and give 1-2seconds of free damage on them while the other blob moves out of negate field.

I can see how someone on the outside could think that way but I don't agree with this at all.

I've played players who have been playing since day one who I know are in all legendary gear and have as many champion points as me and they are only marginally better than they used to be. I've also played players in blue/purple gear who aren't even max vet rank who gave me a run for my money. Skill and resource management are very important in this game. Gear and champion points makes that easier true, but it doesn't award skill. Just look at the video of Germantrocity killing that Empress Sorc, or Sypher doing the same to another DK emp for confirmation of that.

Blob playing or Zerging as I term it masks an individual's skill and blends it with the collective but there are plenty of excellent players who are as good in 1 v 1s as they are in Zerg v Zergs .

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

Find the difference between design of PvP of these games vs the one of ESO and think hard why those are competitive and TESO is a casual PvP timesink that even devs have low on priority list.

There are only 3 RPGs on that site.
The most important reason the ESO community can't develop esports is because there's no arena and a lot of technical problems.
If ZOS would focus on creating fair matches, I don't see why ESO shouldn't be on par with GW2 or WoW.

There is also a vastly different design between combat design in those two and TESO.

IIRC both GW2 and WoW have Cooldowns next to the resource management of HP/mana/whatever.

Each of the games on the list focuses on resource management (HP/mana/ammo/etc.) and there is a difference between FPS/tanks vs MOBA/RTS/MMO that in the first category true aim skills are more visible than skill cooldowns and costs of the other section.

In all of those games that I've played grouping too much is punished hard, but so is the solo play in case of team games. you need to know when you can group up and when to spread out and work around resources and timings of skills/items usage and map control

I did not play GW2 or WoW, I've seen some gameplay footage from WoW Blizzcon though, when there was a break in SC2, but the design difference in PvP mechanics is visible at the first sight...

TESO is primarly PvE, same as diablo, and mechanics support it, via spamfest of skills. Both games are skillless in terms of PvP, hence diablo3 PvP died when they tried to implement it, and TESO PvP is a casual timesink when you are bored of PvE content.

Can you imagine watching TESO fights on a stream? Blob on blob with screen cluttered with spam that you can't even see what is going on?

This does not mean it cannot be fun. It can, and I enjoyed my ride couple of times with some organzied PvP guild, but to claim that it belongs to high skill PvP games is just ridiculous. Not with the current design... ever... even if arenas would be implemented.

1v1 is bad, because classes are not balanced vs each other. Areana group fights of 8v8 would be unenjoyable spam fest.

I can see teams of 3-5 players work very well tbh.
Did you ever participate in that kind of organized fights with some of the better Arena/Legend members?
It's certainly not the AoE spamfest you have in larger groups and a single player can make a great difference through clever use of his skills and good timing.
Just that ESO has no cooldowns doesn't mean it doesn't need skill to beat equally skilled players. In fact, I think cooldowns are merely a help to balance a game, and frankly, I don't like that system. Obviously, ZOS is not able to achieve good balance here either way though, so actual esports will have to stay a dream anyway.

you mean like negate, or fear? or that then it changes to more single target than AoE spells, with exception of heals? sure there is more of focus on better placement of some skills, but this game badly needs cooldowns to reduce the spam as well as lag... the spam of various skills is what kills the server.

to offset CDs - add PvP collision, remove AoE target cap, remove CC immunities with exception to skills that grant it, so no 5s grace period after you got CCed and you broke it. Additionaly please for gods sake cap regen at 600 or some such...

Let the AoEs be timely Zerg busters, add PvP collision so you can actually body block with tanks some areas - like a breach, cutting heavily on regen will prevent any kind of spam, and CDs will balance out skills vs their dmg/utility power and the game will become more tactical where baiting out some skills will actually have a big tactical advantage, same with bad placement etc. Siege weapons will become useful tools in all their iterations as purge will not be available all the time at will. Anti CC skills and dodging CC skills that have Coooldowns will allow more better gameplay around those skills and there will be no free out of jail card if you get out of position. You get caught OoP with your anti CC skill down or into a chain CC, you DIE, simple as that.

This will also work in 1v1 and 5v5, because these things work well in most popular MOBA games on that small scale.

If you want to have your spam heavy, casual environment, sure, have it, but do not expect lags to ever reduce in bigger engagements and do not expect larger populations as the game ages, because new people will be always so far behind in terms of gear and CPs that they will never treat PvP more serious than some time sink to get some rest between questing.

Xeniph

You are all ignoring a really sad fact of that SS.

That is Steel Tornado hit was pathetic!

Just say'in.

LazyLewis

This is nothing to do with Havok to point out. With most groups all running proxy it just feels less competitive. The only competition currently is who has the best ratio of damage/nirn/heals and best co-ordinated proxy. Yes groups are gonna use the most effective skills the game has to offer but I wanna fight classes for their differences not fight a single skill that everyone has. Its completely negates diversity between classes in PvP.