Refreshing Shadows needs to be looked at

manny254

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Edit: some screenshots I added in the thread

manny254 wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Either bring the math that shows the imbalance this addresses or stop. There are obvious imbalances and this isn't one.

Here you go

Neither character had any cp in stam regen. No dawnbreaker (mostly because I didn't feel like re morphing on my nb). Also no warrior stone as in my previous testing shadow gave a marginal increase in burst damage while you have around 50% crit. Both character where drinking mint mudcrab mojito (Blue Stam Magic regen drink)


Templar: 1,454 regen, 3,561 weapon power. 5 hundings, 5 ravager, 2 bloodspawn



Night Blade: 1,756 regen, 3406 weapon power. Same gear as above



So this yields a difference of 302 regen and 155 weapon power. With regen favoring the NB and weapon power favoring the templar.


Now the real issue. Lets try to achieve this type of regen on the templar while trying to maintain half decent weapon power. If you have better sets for me to do this with, let me know.

Templar: 1,718 regen, 2,637 weapon power. 5 hundings, 2 morag tong, 2 shadow walker, 2 air with 1 bloodspawn (Essentially the same as 3 air).



Now the difference is 38 regen and 769 weapon power. With both favoring the NB.

IxSTALKERxI

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Soulac

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Different classes, different passives.
You have dmg shields as Stamina DK or Templar, also DKs getting less dmg while blocking and getting ressources back on ultimate use.

Also keep in mind that they already nerfed overall Stamina Reg of NBs by 30%.
If you want sustain to be equal, then I want equal defense. Give me a dmg Shield.

manny254

Soulac wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Different classes, different passives.
You have dmg shields as Stamina DK or Templar, also DKs getting less dmg while blocking and getting ressources back on ultimate use.

Also keep in mind that they already nerfed overall Stamina Reg of NBs by 30%.
If you want sustain to be equal, then I want equal defense. Give me a dmg Shield.

I didn't ask for equal sustain, but for them to be more in line with each other. Not to mention that a damage shield is not really comparable to a passive ability. Because if we bring active skills into the fray everything gets messy. Such as fear and dark cloak. Then you bring in some skill you think is powerful and we loose the intent of the whole discussion. From a raw stats perspective to achieve the same damage other classes must sacrifice significant damage.

Soulac

manny254 wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Different classes, different passives.
You have dmg shields as Stamina DK or Templar, also DKs getting less dmg while blocking and getting ressources back on ultimate use.

Also keep in mind that they already nerfed overall Stamina Reg of NBs by 30%.
If you want sustain to be equal, then I want equal defense. Give me a dmg Shield.

I didn't ask for equal sustain, but for them to be more in line with each other. Not to mention that a damage shield is not really comparable to a passive ability. Because if we bring active skills into the fray everything gets messy. Such as fear and dark cloak. Then you bring in some skill you think is powerful and we loose the intent of the whole discussion. From a raw stats perspective to achieve the same damage other classes must sacrifice significant damage.

Dmg shields are defensive abilities, higher Stamina Reg grants you more defense. Too different things, still leading to the same, our nicely defense.
Even with a really high Stamina Reg build, the Nb passive is just like an another set bonus.
It makes a noticeable difference, but overall I don't think it's op or something.
The Bosmer passive, even at 21% is nearly as good as the Nb passive, and that's a racial thing. This is something needed to be looked at.
Since Dodge gets nerfed I don't think a nerf to Stamina recovery is necessary.

Araxleon

Soulac wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Different classes, different passives.
You have dmg shields as Stamina DK or Templar, also DKs getting less dmg while blocking and getting ressources back on ultimate use.

Also keep in mind that they already nerfed overall Stamina Reg of NBs by 30%.
If you want sustain to be equal, then I want equal defense. Give me a dmg Shield.

have you seen the DK block passive? I dont see an issue, its how NB survives

Im magicka NB and I even need this passive to survive, I cant stack shields and cloak everything. NB need the rolling

manny254

Soulac wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.



To put this in perspective. Wearing 7 medium armor only yields the player 28% bonus stamina regen.

In Eric's explanation of the dodge roll cool down he essentially spoke about being able to hit hard while still remaining elusive. As a player that min maxes every ounce of his character I feel this passive creates a large disparity of stamina builds within different classes. Simply put as a stamina templar (or sorc/dk) to get sustain equal to a nightblade I would have to sacrifice significant damage. I feel this is in direct contrast to the reasons cited for the upcoming (and needed) change to dodge roll.

Personally I think this passive need to be brought down to 15%, but what do you think.

Different classes, different passives.
You have dmg shields as Stamina DK or Templar, also DKs getting less dmg while blocking and getting ressources back on ultimate use.

Also keep in mind that they already nerfed overall Stamina Reg of NBs by 30%.
If you want sustain to be equal, then I want equal defense. Give me a dmg Shield.

I didn't ask for equal sustain, but for them to be more in line with each other. Not to mention that a damage shield is not really comparable to a passive ability. Because if we bring active skills into the fray everything gets messy. Such as fear and dark cloak. Then you bring in some skill you think is powerful and we loose the intent of the whole discussion. From a raw stats perspective to achieve the same damage other classes must sacrifice significant damage.

Dmg shields are defensive abilities, higher Stamina Reg grants you more defense. Too different things, still leading to the same, our nicely defense.
Even with a really high Stamina Reg build, the Nb passive is just like an another set bonus.
It makes a noticeable difference, but overall I don't think it's op or something.
The Bosmer passive, even at 21% is nearly as good as the Nb passive, and that's a racial thing. This is something needed to be looked at.
Since Dodge gets nerfed I don't think a nerf to Stamina recovery is necessary.

Stamina regen is not just defense. It affects how many times you can cast your offensive abilities as well. In the manner of defense regarding this type of spec shadow cloak adds much more defense then a health based damage shield.

This is more than just a set bonus. It scales to your stamina regen stat. So the more stamina regen the more this passive benefits you, and without soft caps this get insane.

Derra

10% like the sorc magica reg passive. Don´t see a reason why it should be more.

Jakeol

Sneaking (and soon to be blocking) will stop all stam regen, with increasing roll dodge costs there is going to be a need for this passive. It's like asking for all mana regen to stop when you cast

JDar

Get your filthy hands off my class passives.

Soris

I don't think it should be completely removed but it needs a change imo.

For example, templar and dk have that same 30% regen as an active skill. Radiant Aura and GDB. Means they have to slot that one specific skill and use it on cooldown with a trade of some amount of magicka. And these 2 are subject to potion useage which they do not stack.
NB has it as passive and it stacks with potions. Grants them 50% regen out of nowhere. This should be changed.
Add that regen to cloak maybe or some other skill with a duration of 15 seconds and make it unable to stack with potions. Would be fair.

Leandor

Soris wrote: »

I don't think it should be completely removed but it needs a change imo.

For example, templar and dk have that same 30% regen as an active skill. Radiant Aura and GDB. Means they have to slot that one specific skill and use it on cooldown with a trade of some amount of magicka. And these 2 are subject to potion useage which they do not stack.
NB has it as passive and it stacks with potions. Grants them 50% regen out of nowhere. This should be changed.
Add that regen to cloak maybe or some other skill with a duration of 15 seconds and make it unable to stack with potions. Would be fair.

Ah, cool, then the Nightblades will also get increased Health regeneration from the passive, sweet.

Please stop comparing apples and oranges. Classes are different. They have different skills. Why do people insist on having all classes be carbon copies of each other?

Francescolg

Don't discourage people to reroll NB, leave everything as it is in prospect of 1.7

Soris

Leandor wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

I don't think it should be completely removed but it needs a change imo.

For example, templar and dk have that same 30% regen as an active skill. Radiant Aura and GDB. Means they have to slot that one specific skill and use it on cooldown with a trade of some amount of magicka. And these 2 are subject to potion useage which they do not stack.
NB has it as passive and it stacks with potions. Grants them 50% regen out of nowhere. This should be changed.
Add that regen to cloak maybe or some other skill with a duration of 15 seconds and make it unable to stack with potions. Would be fair.

Ah, cool, then the Nightblades will also get increased Health regeneration from the passive, sweet.

Please stop comparing apples and oranges. Classes are different. They have different skills. Why do people insist on having all classes be carbon copies of each other?

Did I just ask dark cloak for my templar or soul harvest? No. I just pointed out that one passive stacks with potions and the other does not.
That regen value is actually the exact same number for these 3 classes, so it is actually carbon copies in a different shape. It's Apples and Apples.
Current potion regen effect changes un-intentionally prevent stacking with these 2 class skills unlike Refreshing Shadows. Then it magickaly evolved into "intented change" when the 1.6 was about to push on live like the eveything else they can not fixed.
I just gave you the recipe to fix this. No nerfing anything. Fair for both parties

Master_Kas

I agree with soulac, if you touch that passive give me a class damage shield .
If not gtfo

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude & Insulting comments as well as Cursing & Profanity]

Soris

@Master_Kas You can have my 3k point Blazing shield when update 7 hits.
Careful what you want from ZOS lol

Master_Kas

Soris wrote: »

@Master_Kas You can have my 3k point Blazing shield when update 7 hits.
Careful what you want from ZOS lol

Lol I hope they make the temp and dk shields scale of your highest stat..
And I'm not one who wants all classes skills and passives to be the same. I like diversity

RIP Blazing shield

Leandor

Both skills you mentioned have additional effects. GDB heals and increases health regeneration upon activation. The templar skill passively increases regeneration by sitting on the bar (also health regen btw) and has a heal function upon activation. The Nightblades stamina passive has just stamina. So, apples and oranges. Its only perk is stacking with pot usage.

Different thing, different side effects.

Jahosefat

30% is crazy high; with upcoming nerfs to block NB will be the no-brainer choice for all your stam needs. It should be more like 10%.

JDar

Problem with this is that it will completely ruin magicka nightblades to solve the problem of stamina nightblades being OP. Please do not do this, ZoS.

DDuke

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

lathbury

couple of questions to the op do you play a sorc?

Araxleon

DDuke wrote: »

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

Thank you,

Master_Kas

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

Thank you,

+100000

Pchela

Hey now, that stamina regen on a magicka NB is needed. I don't have much regen even with grim focus up and have a 9k stam pool when running solo build. I need every bit of regen I can get.

Sacadon

Either bring the math that shows the imbalance this addresses or stop. There are obvious imbalances and this isn't one.

Maulkin

DDuke wrote: »

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

Again, you talk about things you don't know.

30k-40k stamina pool means you're going for foods and not drinks (most DKs are in the mid-20s for stam pool, and use drinks). The loss of the drinks regen leaves you in a far worse place in terms of stamina sustain than Helping Hands could ever hope to recover.

Not to mention that your Earthen Heart abilities (which trigger the passive and are ALL magicka) are very very expensive for a stamina build with no mag cost reduction, especially one that runs food instead of drinks. Thus only 600 mag regen.

I have a AR 23 stamina DK and I'm saying this (you know it, you've seen me). Do you?

manny254

lathbury wrote: »

couple of questions to the op do you play a sorc?

Sorc is literally the only class I do not play.

DDuke

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

Again, you talk about things you don't know.

30k-40k stamina pool means you're going for foods and not drinks (most DKs are in the mid-20s for stam pool, and use drinks). The loss of the drinks regen leaves you in a far worse place in terms of stamina sustain than Helping Hands could ever hope to recover.

Not to mention that your Earthen Heart abilities (which trigger the passive and are ALL magicka) are very very expensive for a stamina build with no mag cost reduction, especially one that runs food instead of drinks. Thus only 600 mag regen.

I have a AR 23 stamina DK and I'm saying this (you know it, you've seen me). Do you?

Considering how my encounters vs your DK ended, I think you should really consider using food instead of drink, or atleast try it out (especially after the next patch).

As for magicka abilities being expensive... same is true for stamina nightblades. Fear/Cloak are both 1/5th of your magicka with food buff up (1/3rd without it). Yet you still need to use them (well, cloak atleast), especially after next patch & roll dodge nerf.

wanderlustx5

manny254 wrote: »

Since the nerf bat is in full swing I feel this passive need to be looked at. If memory serves this passive originally only worked in stealth, and then was changed to be always active. At the time soft caps where in place so this did not get crazy out of control, but with 1.6/CP this passive is insane.

Agree 100% and would take it a step further to = the sorc passive Unholy Knowledge. this would help both majica and stamblades equally and restore some balance

wanderlustx5

DDuke wrote: »

I think you're underestimating what kind of sustain stamina DKs can get for instance, with Helping Hands passive.

5% stamina restoration after using an Earthen Heart ability. Combine this with a 30-40k stamina pool and it's worth far more than NBs 30% stamina regeneration.

Also worth mentioning, as a DK you get unique access to Minor Brutality (5% weapon damage bonus) after using an Earthen Heart ability, as well as access to only Physical damage ultimate in game (meaning it gets further +25% damage from Mighty passive) in form of Leap.


Overall, I think stamina DKs are very, very underrated at the moment.


Stamina Templar isn't bad either, as you're getting -4% stamina costs (would rate the value of this at around 15% stam regen), Repentance, +6% Weapon Damage, +10% crit dmg etc.


People need to experiment more with other classes, rather than following the masses and going with what is popular (but not necessarily stronger).

just no. completely wrong. the only class with worse stamina regen then a dk is a sorc and even then its debatable with the new dark deal.