So , we all have to admit sorcerer is not welcomed for dragonstar arena top score teams.

chongguang

I dont know the situation in EU, but in NA it is confirmed that sorcerers are not welcomed in dragonstar arenas, as no top teams bring sorcerers with them. Any opinion to this phenomenon guys ?
The number is still decreasing in recent weeks.

RoyJade

2 sorc in the top 20 for the EU server recently. Only very, very good players with awesome team can keep a sorc in the top score.
Some players I know start a dk or a templar and have far better scoring with exactly the same team member. Personally, I don't want to create a more optimized character I don't like, but I can't keep my sorc in the scoring anymore.

But it seem that NB don't have a good day neither. They are more NB than sorc, but not a lot comparing to DK and templar.

Hope the 2.1.0 and some adjustment will come soon.

chongguang

RoyJade wrote: »

2 sorc in the top 20 for the EU server recently. Only very, very good players with awesome team can keep a sorc in the top score.
Some players I know start a dk or a templar and have far better scoring with exactly the same team member. Personally, I don't want to create a more optimized character I don't like, but I can't keep my sorc in the scoring anymore.

But it seem that NB don't have a good day neither. They are more NB than sorc, but not a lot comparing to DK and templar.

Hope the 2.1.0 and some adjustment will come soon.

Very same situation in NA currently. NBs have better chances than sorcerers to be picked up for top teams.

Attorneyatlawl

RoyJade wrote: »

2 sorc in the top 20 for the EU server recently. Only very, very good players with awesome team can keep a sorc in the top score.
Some players I know start a dk or a templar and have far better scoring with exactly the same team member. Personally, I don't want to create a more optimized character I don't like, but I can't keep my sorc in the scoring anymore.

But it seem that NB don't have a good day neither. They are more NB than sorc, but not a lot comparing to DK and templar.

Hope the 2.1.0 and some adjustment will come soon.

chongguang wrote: »

I dont know the situation in EU, but in NA it is confirmed that sorcerers are not welcomed in dragonstar arenas, as no top teams bring sorcerers with them. Any opinion to this phenomenon guys ?
The number is still decreasing in recent weeks.

Just like the pvp'ers complaining about how siege was overpowered and unable to be fought against even as some like myself listed out countless ways to make it laughably weak against you easily..... you guys are wrong, too. The top spots aren't dictated just by balance, and even theorycrafters pick up on new ideas all the time. Try making some builds yourselves and getting better at the game if you want on the leaderboards, especially the top 10, 20, or 50. I haven't talked to or run with other top players yet who have builds originating from youtube .

Rather, we make our own, and that is indeed part of the skill to test and learn what works well. Some eventually either are posted up, or some random blogger stumbles upon it too and slathers it all over their stream, but that is way behind the curve in the cases it even does happen. Most of the best you have never even heard of . Just a hint: nightblades and magicka templars remain the highest PVE damage for vDSA and trials. No idea what I'm talking about? Yeah, most people don't, that is why there aren't many on the leaderboards. Case in point.

RoyJade

We take magicka NB most of the time in Sanctum because we can have only one healer with us like that, and they have more or less the same dps as me against the mantikora (14-15k). But all the stamina NB, templar, dk and magicka dk have 20k.
I've see almost all sorc in the scoring in the EU server, and I know I'm very close to their dps, far lower than the 20k er.

Zanen

It's the same balance problem that plagues every MMO and ESO more than most, balancing archetypes across PVE/PVP.

Same issue with Nirn atm, same issue NB has had since launch, and pretty much every stealth-burst and/or ranged-mobility class has had in every MMO.

Making everyone's sustained DPS comparable in a tank and spank situation severely limits class differentiation, and when you're trying to make all classes viable in all roles you can't simply nerf survivability to balance an increase in sustained damage, it's a complicated problem.

Overall class balance is actually really good in ESO right now IMO, expecting every class to be equally good at everything is asking to be disappointed.

Attorneyatlawl

Zanen wrote: »

It's the same balance problem that plagues every MMO and ESO more than most, balancing archetypes across PVE/PVP.

Same issue with Nirn atm, same issue NB has had since launch, and pretty much every stealth-burst and/or ranged-mobility class has had in every MMO.

Making everyone's sustained DPS comparable in a tank and spank situation severely limits class differentiation, and when you're trying to make all classes viable in all roles you can't simply nerf survivability to balance an increase in sustained damage, it's a complicated problem.

Overall class balance is actually really good in ESO right now IMO, expecting every class to be equally good at everything is asking to be disappointed.

Excellently said, good sir or fine ma'am.

chongguang

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Zanen wrote: »

It's the same balance problem that plagues every MMO and ESO more than most, balancing archetypes across PVE/PVP.

Same issue with Nirn atm, same issue NB has had since launch, and pretty much every stealth-burst and/or ranged-mobility class has had in every MMO.

Making everyone's sustained DPS comparable in a tank and spank situation severely limits class differentiation, and when you're trying to make all classes viable in all roles you can't simply nerf survivability to balance an increase in sustained damage, it's a complicated problem.

Overall class balance is actually really good in ESO right now IMO, expecting every class to be equally good at everything is asking to be disappointed.

Excellently said, good sir or fine ma'am.

Right now i think i have to say something about so called balance. I am not going to refuse the current class balance work is almost well done. However, when it moves to PVE, sorcerers are really not good to be any of three roles in a team. Templar and DK can do both heal and tank job better than SORCERER, while NB can edge out much dps than SORCERER I think this is the reason why sorcerers getting harder to keep their scores.

Some people may argue that Sorcerer is the king in PVP, but a real king （emperor） in NA server is a Templar who has been keeping it for such a long time. It is quiet a joke to still hold the idea that sorcerer is the best while others ,especially templar, are the rest.

Dont get me wrong , i dont want to use my thread to blame Templar or other 2 classes. I predicted most of people will say the words to protect sorcerers. They are doing it for different purpose, such as blaming, real protecting and so on. Then they come to the same kind of thread, it becomes a bias or misleading information.

I think Zenimax have to do something to buff sorercers DPS, as they claimed before, sorcerers should have unique abilities to tank , heal and DPS. It should be equal to other three classes

hedna123b14_ESO

Just to prove this wrong I'll level a sorc and get on the leaderboard....

Attorneyatlawl

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just to prove this wrong I'll level a sorc and get on the leaderboard....

Already did that once, myself , though it fell off the top rungs of the vDSA board as I haven't run him in it for a few, but still is high on the SO/AA/HRC ones . Forum warriors will insist anything you show, be it build, performance, or plain facts on paper, are invalid because they disagree even with the proof right in front of them, regardless .

Yonkit

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Just to prove this wrong I'll level a sorc and get on the leaderboard....

Already did that once, myself , though it fell off the top rungs of the vDSA board as I haven't run him in it for a few, but still is high on the SO/AA/HRC ones . Forum warriors will insist anything you show, be it build, performance, or plain facts on paper, are invalid because they disagree even with the proof right in front of them, regardless .

YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS GOOD SIR!

f047ys3v3n

Zanen wrote: »

Overall class balance is actually really good in ESO right now IMO, expecting every class to be equally good at everything is asking to be disappointed.

Seriously, with templars the only viable heals and arguably the best tank (I'm pretty certain of this) and dps (a little less certain) we think things are balanced? I might also add that they are by far the class that gives me the most fits fighting in PVP.

I can only assume that you mean class balance is really good be cause there is absolutely no question whatsoever about which one you should roll with the brand new console launch. That is sure an interesting take on balance.

KerinKor

chongguang wrote: »

I dont know the situation in EU, but in NA it is confirmed that sorcerers are not welcomed in dragonstar arenas, as no top teams bring sorcerers with them. Any opinion to this phenomenon guys ?

Leaderboards don't matter so class 'balance' isn't an issue, that's my opinion.

Dymence

The number 1 veteran dragonstar arena score in EU has a sorcerer in it.

f047ys3v3n

Dymence wrote: »

The number 1 veteran dragonstar arena score in EU has a sorcerer in it.

Exceptional players do exceptional things that does not mean things are balanced. Guess what toons the hardcore players I know are leveling at the moment....? Templars, and almost entirely and uniformly Templars. The unanimity is much greater than it was in the dominant DK days and in many cases these are second and third Templars. It's a darn good thing too as many of the Templar heals I knew have gone all stamina DPS and cannot heal any more due to different CP allocation. It will take many, many, Templars to replace them assuming those are not seduced by the great power, and remarkable ease, of Templar DPS.

If class respec becomes a thing and it is not too costly my sorc and NB will both become Templars with the sorc becoming a heals and the NB becoming a stam DPS. I know it's hard for a lot of folks to understand the great imbalances as they do not have a variety of different class toons but they become very obvious if you do. Sure you can do high dps on any class and I know folks that do but it is much easier on some than others and furthermore, some classes have a great deal more utility and survivability in addition to this dps than others. Templar is, in my opinion, the all around strongest followed by dk, than a long way behind is sorc with NB pretty close.

Zlater

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

The number 1 veteran dragonstar arena score in EU has a sorcerer in it.

Exceptional players do exceptional things that does not mean things are balanced. Guess what toons the hardcore players I know are leveling at the moment....? Templars, and almost entirely and uniformly Templars. The unanimity is much greater than it was in the dominant DK days and in many cases these are second and third Templars. It's a darn good thing too as many of the Templar heals I knew have gone all stamina DPS and cannot heal any more due to different CP allocation. It will take many, many, Templars to replace them assuming those are not seduced by the great power, and remarkable ease, of Templar DPS.

If class respec becomes a thing and it is not too costly my sorc and NB will both become Templars with the sorc becoming a heals and the NB becoming a stam DPS. I know it's hard for a lot of folks to understand the great imbalances as they do not have a variety of different class toons but they become very obvious if you do. Sure you can do high dps on any class and I know folks that do but it is much easier on some than others and furthermore, some classes have a great deal more utility and survivability in addition to this dps than others. Templar is, in my opinion, the all around strongest followed by dk, than a long way behind is sorc with NB pretty close.

There is something we dont consider is not just the ability of the character, but also the ability of the player. If you can take a Stamina Sorc to the leaderboards, it doesn't mean you have awesome DPS (I know really) but it does indicate that you are probably the most skilled player on that leaderboard.

If you take a templar to the leaderboards, sure your character is strong, but it doesn't mean you are a better player than the former. If I could differentiate, then I would give huge respect to the sorc, but to be honest, I would probably just ignore another temp on the wall. And actually we already do that, @Dymence was able to point out a single sorc, but no templar or DK was isolated for praise from anyone here, maybe because nobody but the builder really knows which bricks they placed.

Just saying, if in 1.5 you saw a NB on the wall, you looked and wondered. If you saw a DK, you, well... didn't really care.

Just my 2 cents, I like to see players breaking new grounds, not so much breaking old grounds. That deserves moar respect.

Trollwut

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

The number 1 veteran dragonstar arena score in EU has a sorcerer in it.

Exceptional players do exceptional things that does not mean things are balanced.

Aren't the Top 20 of the scoreboard all exceptional?

byrom101b16_ESO

This was all predicted by many, including myself whilst there was a wave of aggressive and dismissive posts about how great comparative Sorcerer dps was just after the 1.6 patch illustrated with ridiculous corner-case 'examples' that the 'non-analytical' took as gospel.

It's disappointing to have the rather obvious points we made in counter to this self-evident fallacy proved right, even more disappointing that Zenimax dismissed our concerns as nonsense based on extremely limited PvP performance anecdotes at the time they were made, and then they didn't fix it for months, adding insult to injury with the ridiculously unbalanced nirnhoned meta against all magicka damage and adding spell resistance to every PvE mob in existence.

Add that to making Light Armour very bad, but still necessary for magicka builds by comparison to medium and heavy and the farce was compounded alongside no fix for toggle-button-blocking.

Welcome to the need to run three bars of abilities and sit a minimum of 20-25% lower that everyone else's dps figures no matter your skill level.

Ezemode Stamina Online... Expendable Sorcerers Offline. Not sure which fits better for ESO atm...

Worse still, they claim nirnhoned isn't 'working as intended' even though it isn't currently bugged... which basically means they couldn't work out the basic maths of the performance of the trait before implementing it...

I could have worked out the problem with a pencil and a post-it note in minutes.

Perhaps they should give ME a job? lol

LordBurl

I just have to say, that I played the beta on PC, then waited for ESO to hit XBO, since my computer struggled to play the game on even minimum settings. Now that I am actually able to play the game, I am hitting the forums for some information on my class, crafting etc. I chose a Templar, because they seem to be the closest thing to a Paladin, and I love that character concept in most games. What I find funny, is in this thread, everyone is talking about how OP the Templar is, and that they can heal, tank, or DPS with the best of them, and any noob can play one of them. Yet, not 5 minutes earlier, I was reading a thread on here that Templars suck at dealing damage compared to the other classes, and that they can't even survive in PvP because of the 1.6 nerf to Blazing Shield. So how is it that there are such extreme views on the same class? Are people going to look at me and go 'Oh, you rolled a Templar, how unique since like 90% of everyone else did the same thing'? A little clarification would go a long ways to helping me understand why people's opinions on Templars have such a wide range.

Thanks.

chongguang

LordBurl wrote: »

I just have to say, that I played the beta on PC, then waited for ESO to hit XBO, since my computer struggled to play the game on even minimum settings. Now that I am actually able to play the game, I am hitting the forums for some information on my class, crafting etc. I chose a Templar, because they seem to be the closest thing to a Paladin, and I love that character concept in most games. What I find funny, is in this thread, everyone is talking about how OP the Templar is, and that they can heal, tank, or DPS with the best of them, and any noob can play one of them. Yet, not 5 minutes earlier, I was reading a thread on here that Templars suck at dealing damage compared to the other classes, and that they can't even survive in PvP because of the 1.6 nerf to Blazing Shield. So how is it that there are such extreme views on the same class? Are people going to look at me and go 'Oh, you rolled a Templar, how unique since like 90% of everyone else did the same thing'? A little clarification would go a long ways to helping me understand why people's opinions on Templars have such a wide range.

Thanks.

What you met belongs to normal situation, as people are always negative while some are always positive. If you want to find some negative info, you can do it, In contrast you can always find positive information as well.
It is obvious that situation is chaos. So the data from leaderboards are the only one that will not lying to you. This is my belief.

For templar, i saw many templars obtain high scores and being on the top position (PVP) as well as other 3 classes. Moreover, more and more temps occupy the many and high places in the leaderboards of trial and VDSA. I think this fact really telling us something that can be considered as the truth in truth.

Alcast

LordBurl wrote: »

I just have to say, that I played the beta on PC, then waited for ESO to hit XBO, since my computer struggled to play the game on even minimum settings. Now that I am actually able to play the game, I am hitting the forums for some information on my class, crafting etc. I chose a Templar, because they seem to be the closest thing to a Paladin, and I love that character concept in most games. What I find funny, is in this thread, everyone is talking about how OP the Templar is, and that they can heal, tank, or DPS with the best of them, and any noob can play one of them. Yet, not 5 minutes earlier, I was reading a thread on here that Templars suck at dealing damage compared to the other classes, and that they can't even survive in PvP because of the 1.6 nerf to Blazing Shield. So how is it that there are such extreme views on the same class? Are people going to look at me and go 'Oh, you rolled a Templar, how unique since like 90% of everyone else did the same thing'? A little clarification would go a long ways to helping me understand why people's opinions on Templars have such a wide range.

Thanks.

Templars are like this atm:

PvE
Stamina Templar highest AoE output, on par Single Target DPS with other classes, can spawnkill arena mobs.
Magicka Templar is good DPS
Healer Templar is best the best Healer (ALthough a mix with other classes always good, but you cant do smth wrong with a Templar)

PvP:
Stamina templar kinda ok, but weaker than other classes.
Magicka Templar is nice, because jesus beam.

I stopped pvping with my staminaTemplar and started playing with my NB, because in PvP NBs are so dumb OP atm.

Also you have to be careful what Race you choose, Race is very Important in 1.6.
Best choice atm is Imperial because got good ressources 12% HP/Stam increase.

chongguang wrote: »

LordBurl wrote: »

For templar, i saw many templars obtain high scores and being on the top position (PVP) as well as other 3 classes. Moreover, more and more temps occupy the many and high places in the leaderboards of trial and VDSA. I think this fact really telling us something that can be considered as the truth in truth.

The Reason why most of the top scores are Templars because those are healers. Healers always get MORE points than any other class

hedna123b14_ESO

I know this thread is a month old, but i have run vDSA with a sorc recently and he consistently pulls 20-30k single tarrget dps.....it is definitely possible...my sorc right now just turned v6...but i definitely see the insane potential...