Uniqueness of Funnel health [NB healing]

Cinna

There is something about NB healing that I haven't seen discussed but strikes me as a quite important feature that I've discovered while leveling. By tooltip Funnel health heals a proportion of damage done. The healing is an over time effect but the damage is a single hit. Normally the strength of HoTs changes dynamically as per the spell power, max magicka, critical damage and +healing bonuses from moment to moment over the duration of a HoT. However, Funnel health is different: changes in your spell power/magicka will not change the HoT, as its strength is anchored to the damage done previously (+healing bonuses still can vary it as well as criticals). Furthermore, when you spam Funnel you will not overwrite a previously cast funnel HoT but instead you will REFRESH THE DURATION. This means that you can get a heal tick for yourself every global cooldown instead of every 2sec, and more importantly, in a small group you can maintain massive healing by starting the combat with fully buffed Funnels and just refreshing the duration of those numbers. This makes me think that all bonus damage buffs are very important for a NB nealer. Minor berserk (combat prayer), empower, major sorcery, soul harvest 20% damage, possibly major berserk... and of course Thaumaturge CPs. Spell penetration & major breach also matter here.

Also, Funnel health healing gets double benefit from criticals. The harder you hit with the original damage the bigger the base of the heal is, and then each tick of the HoT can crit individually. Therefore NB healer may benefit more than other classes from gearing for crit chance and/or crit damage (Yes, crit dmg = crit healing!). We already get 10% crit damage from Hemorrhage passive by slotting an assassination spell and another 10% is easy to get from Elfborn with CPs. Maybe Aggressive warhorn in the beginning of fights...

In effect of above principles my group is constantly under the effect of a HoT that is stronger hps than a healing spring but without ground targeting. In most of my vet dungeon runs most of my healing done comes from Funnel. Obviously when needed other heals are used as situation demands. In large groups it may be harder to maintain a blanket of refreshed Funnel Hots because one cast applies to two allies and positioning can make it impossible to reach many of them. Large group would require more repetitive use of empower I believe, where in small group empowering 2 first Funnel casts of a fight will suffice if you manage to maintain the HoT.

The NB healer spec guides that I have seen have not overtly utilised the uniqueness of Funnel healing. Some call it a small HoT, some use as a filler. I was wondering if anyone else is tinkering with a Funnel focused crit healing NB? I am not in end game yet with this toon (v3), so figuring out optimizations of spec is going to take a while for me, particularly the situational variants for end game demands.

PBpsy

Funnel should not really be thought about as a heal but as a strong single target dps skill with some added bonuses. Secondary HOT and Ultimate generation from heals and transfer.. Until 1.6 it was one of the best end game magica DPS builds in the game. Now it is still freaking awesome.but much harder to play and even with good gear and rotation you still do not quite get comparable to top magicka dk and good stamina builds. I will however not ever change to stam Nb dps. No way in hell will I be a derp rogue/ranger )(On my mainthat is. I do have a derp rogue ranger NB though. ).. For a NB healer though I think decent crit should be a priority any way for both your class Siphoning heals and for your resto heals. You will not be able to be main heal only with funnel though no matter how much crit you have. Unless you play with some carzy goup of 3templars or 3 other siphon NBs.

Attorneyatlawl

Cinna wrote: »

There is something about NB healing that I haven't seen discussed but strikes me as a quite important feature that I've discovered while leveling. By tooltip Funnel health heals a proportion of damage done. The healing is an over time effect but the damage is a single hit. Normally the strength of HoTs changes dynamically as per the spell power, max magicka, critical damage and +healing bonuses from moment to moment over the duration of a HoT. However, Funnel health is different: changes in your spell power/magicka will not change the HoT, as its strength is anchored to the damage done previously (+healing bonuses still can vary it as well as criticals). Furthermore, when you spam Funnel you will not overwrite a previously cast funnel HoT but instead you will REFRESH THE DURATION. This means that you can get a heal tick for yourself every global cooldown instead of every 2sec, and more importantly, in a small group you can maintain massive healing by starting the combat with fully buffed Funnels and just refreshing the duration of those numbers. This makes me think that all bonus damage buffs are very important for a NB nealer. Minor berserk (combat prayer), empower, major sorcery, soul harvest 20% damage, possibly major berserk... and of course Thaumaturge CPs. Spell penetration & major breach also matter here.

Also, Funnel health healing gets double benefit from criticals. The harder you hit with the original damage the bigger the base of the heal is, and then each tick of the HoT can crit individually. Therefore NB healer may benefit more than other classes from gearing for crit chance and/or crit damage (Yes, crit dmg = crit healing!). We already get 10% crit damage from slotting an assassination spell and another 10% is easy to get from Elfborn with CPs. Maybe Aggressive warhorn in the beginning of fights...

In effect of above principles my group is constantly under the effect of a HoT that is stronger hps than a healing spring but without ground targeting. In most of my vet dungeon runs most of my healing done comes from Funnel. Obviously when needed other heals are used as situation demands. In large groups it may be harder to maintain a blanket of refreshed Funnel Hots because one cast applies to two allies and positioning can make it impossible to reach many of them. Large group would require more repetitive use of empower I believe, where in small group empowering 2 first Funnel casts of a fight will suffice if you manage to maintain the HoT.

The NB healer spec guides that I have seen have not overtly utilised the uniqueness of Funnel healing. Some call it a small HoT, some use as a filler. I was wondering if anyone else is tinkering with a Funnel focused crit healing NB? I am not in end game yet with this toon (v3), so figuring out optimizations of spec is going to take a while for me, particularly the situational variants for end game demands.

You're right. Most people haven't picked up on this yet, and it's been almost two years since the first big PVP beta test that I thought of this in, of course sans the champion system which wasn't in discussion yet . I am sure you will see a litany of people who skim or don't even read your points, but I did... and it remains true all the way through in vDSA and PVP. Keep leveling towards v14 and good things will come... you're already ahead of most of the pack in your game understanding, take it from me .

TheBull

Nice post. One thing though, "We already get 10% crit damage from slotting an assassination spell and another 10% is easy to get from Elfborn with CPs"

NBs get crit rating from slotting assassination abilities. Points into Elborn give crit damage and healing. NB sin abilities increase the rate at which you crit while Elfborn increases the dmg/heal from the crit.

Lynx7386

TheBull wrote: »

Nice post. One thing though, "We already get 10% crit damage from slotting an assassination spell and another 10% is easy to get from Elfborn with CPs"

NBs get crit rating from slotting assassination abilities. Points into Elborn give crit damage and healing. NB sin abilities increase the rate at which you crit while Elfborn increases the dmg/heal from the crit.

Assassination has two passives that effect criticals:
1. Presure Points - increases critical chance for each assassination ability slotted.
2. Hemorrhage - increases critical strike damage by 10%, and on crits gives minor savagery to all nearby allies.

Cinna

PBpsy wrote: »

Funnel should not really be thought about as a heal but as a strong single target dps skill with some added bonuses. Secondary HOT and Ultimate generation from heals and transfer.. Until 1.6 it was one of the best end game magica DPS builds in the game. Now it is still freaking awesome.but much harder to play and even with good gear and rotation you still do not quite get comparable to top magicka dk and good stamina builds. I will however not ever change to stam Nb dps. No way in hell will I be a derp rogue/ranger )(On my mainthat is. I do have a derp rogue ranger NB though. ).. For a NB healer though I think decent crit should be a priority any way for both your class Siphoning heals and for your resto heals. You will not be able to be main heal only with funnel though no matter how much crit you have. Unless you play with some carzy goup of 3templars or 3 other siphon NBs.

I agree that you can not main heal with Funnel only, it is a tool among others. I am discussing a better way of using the spell and frankly repetitions of meta mantras without reasoning do not bring the conversation forward. I would be interested in WHY you are saying that Funnel health shouldn't be thought of as a heal, if it is regularly producing clearly over 50% of total healing done over the course of pledge runs, no matter the level of the run or skill of the pugs, while other heal spells in the arsenal are the traditional healing springs, combat prayer, refreshing path. Also, I am healing end game content on templar and DK, so I know about class comparisons first hand thank you very much. I'm not seeking the easiest way to heal, but the ways to get the best results with each class and ways to enhance the unique features of each different healer, in this disussion regarding the NB. From comparing the output numbers of my v3 NB to the v14 DK and templar, I can see for sure that I've got some good stuff in my hands. All the other classes have to judge between damage and healing spells, but NB does both on the same gcd.

Lynx7386, thanks for clarifying the Hemorrhage whilst I was asleep, that's what I meant. :-)

Attorneyatlawl, thanks for pitching in.

Kerioko

I love NB healing. Running VDSA, I can easily pull 10-12K dps on boss fights while healing our group with mostly just funnel health and mutagen. On trash fights, I do a combination of 1x healing springs with 3x sap essence that will average 20K AOE dps and 20K heals with 5+ targets.

The thing I like best about my main heals being mutagen and funnel, I can stack spell damage like crazy (at 2800 currently) and have no regen worries since funnel only costs 400 magicka!

My current bars are: funnel, cripple, healing ward, impale, inner light, veil......sap, mutegen, springs, flex slot, inner light, soul harvest. The flex slot is usually shades, path, absorb magicka, or purge.

PBpsy

Cinna wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Funnel should not really be thought about as a heal but as a strong single target dps skill with some added bonuses. Secondary HOT and Ultimate generation from heals and transfer.. Until 1.6 it was one of the best end game magica DPS builds in the game. Now it is still freaking awesome.but much harder to play and even with good gear and rotation you still do not quite get comparable to top magicka dk and good stamina builds. I will however not ever change to stam Nb dps. No way in hell will I be a derp rogue/ranger )(On my mainthat is. I do have a derp rogue ranger NB though. ).. For a NB healer though I think decent crit should be a priority any way for both your class Siphoning heals and for your resto heals. You will not be able to be main heal only with funnel though no matter how much crit you have. Unless you play with some carzy goup of 3templars or 3 other siphon NBs.

I agree that you can not main heal with Funnel only, it is a tool among others. I am discussing a better way of using the spell and frankly repetitions of meta mantras without reasoning do not bring the conversation forward. I would be interested in WHY you are saying that Funnel health shouldn't be thought of as a heal, if it is regularly producing clearly over 50% of total healing done over the course of pledge runs, no matter the level of the run or skill of the pugs, while other heal spells in the arsenal are the traditional healing springs, combat prayer, refreshing path. Also, I am healing end game content on templar and DK, so I know about class comparisons first hand thank you very much. I'm not seeking the easiest way to heal, but the ways to get the best results with each class and ways to enhance the unique features of each different healer, in this disussion regarding the NB. From comparing the output numbers of my v3 NB to the v14 DK and templar, I can see for sure that I've got some good stuff in my hands. All the other classes have to judge between damage and healing spells, but NB does both on the same gcd.

Lynx7386, thanks for clarifying the Hemorrhage whilst I was asleep, that's what I meant. :-)

Attorneyatlawl, thanks for pitching in.

I was more or less agreeing with you in a way. If you go NB heals you will get the best results if you stack crit but that is true for all non-temp healers since in the absence of BOL you need most other heals to be massive to compensate for the lack of burst.Even temps need crit of course but it's probably less essential.Anyway with a V14 Magicka dps NB running Funnel health as main damage source it is like having ~2 x Rapid Regen running at all times. Useful but it really only means something when the group takes moderate amount of damage.It is not a reliable life saver though.The damage is pretty nice but that is since I am not also trying to deal with emergency healing .If I would be main heals i think that my healer temp could easily do more damage while having better more reliable heals overall.

Damn now I have to try this.

Also NB gcd ? What?

Cinna

Gcd = global cooldown I.e. the time it takes to cast an instant ability.

Savos_Saren

Cinna- have you leveled your toon more since your original post? If so- how has it progressed? What skills and armor are you utilizing?

Dekkameron

PBpsy wrote: »

You will not be able to be main heal only with funnel though no matter how much crit you have. Unless you play with some carzy goup of 3templars or 3 other siphon NBs.

I've been in groups that are all magicka funnel health spammers, both tanky and less tanky versions and everything is just ridiculously easy

djyrb

PBpsy wrote: »

Funnel should not really be thought about as a heal but as a strong single target dps skill with some added bonuses. Secondary HOT and Ultimate generation from heals and transfer.. Until 1.6 it was one of the best end game magica DPS builds in the game. Now it is still freaking awesome.but much harder to play and even with good gear and rotation you still do not quite get comparable to top magicka dk and good stamina builds. I will however not ever change to stam Nb dps. No way in hell will I be a derp rogue/ranger )(On my mainthat is. I do have a derp rogue ranger NB though. ).

Same here! My first NB was a Breton magicka build that I have refused to go stam with, so I rolled an Imperial alt for that I agree with you that magicka NB needs some love for PVE; even with gold Martial Knowledge, Adroitness, Cyrodill's Light and all that, my DPS struggled to keep up with my other characters who can easily pull much higher numbers with the same gear. It felt like if I missed a single weave or was late on a buff, my DPS plummeted and it was very hard to recover. I realize that magicka NB will be very strong in PVP come 1.7, but hopefully some of those changes will carry over to PVE too.

As for the OP's point, I wouldn't say I was the most experienced NB healer, but I do enjoy it, and I basically DPS with Sap and FH and only start dedicated healing when I need to. The content does seem to go a lot faster though with this playstyle. Too bad NB healers seem to be so few and far between.

Reeko

I recently switched to magicka nb and so far i am loving it! Honostly i will end up going back to stamina but right now i am enjoying exploring this side of the nightblade. Funnel health is my main dps ability and although it heals decently, i cannot see it being able to keep a vet group run from dying. Maybe i'm just needing more tweaking. All in all though i feel like i contribute more to a group now then i did as a stamina nb.

Flameheart

I intended to play my imperial NB as stamina DD, but - besides I experienced that this isn't my favorite playstyle - healers are much more needed and I always played a healer in MMOs.

It's pretty easy to switch role from a NB healer to a true magicka DD while being nightblade, if you aren't out for true min maxing to tickle out the last 5 % it's just a gear and bar switch without any necessarity to reskill at a shrine.

Imperial is far from being the best class for a magicka NB build, but it works and at 35k magicka and 20k health I wonder what could be possible with a Breton.

I agree to the Funnel Health thing. This ability can't be praised high enough for its awesomeness. Main single target DPS skill and major healing skill in one click ? Godly.

If people aren't spoiled by Templer BoL heals and are able to care a bit for themselves concerning damage avoidance a magicka NB healer is your choice for speed run attempts. Just two things to mention -> Sap Essence (skill of tremendous awesomeness nr. 1) and Funnel Health (skill of tremendous awesomeness nr. 2)

NB Magicka DD =

-just laughing at red circles while running around like Flash with Crippling Grasp movement boost.
-laughing at Boss AoEs while hitting from range
-loving the boss health bar melting when you spam Impale below 25%.
-loving the sound of your blocks while marching through a group of trash with Sap Essence spam

...and now leave this thread alone please, before you draw attention of a moderator and might find unexpected changes in the test server patch notes :-)

Cinna

jaburns wrote: »

Cinna- have you leveled your toon more since your original post? If so- how has it progressed? What skills and armor are you utilizing?

Thanks for asking. Yes Nb has risen to be my favourite toon now and could be called my new main. I'm very happy with the pve healing performance and feel like I have nailed down a method of healing by dealing damage. I managed to get some vDSA runs in before people left for holidays, without a solidly dedicated group we reached 9.4k score. (Sadly I don't have a team at the moment for more.) On most of those runs only the tank had self heal to mention through most stages, and sometimes both DDs were vampires.

My gear is generic healers + spell power light setup with one heavy monster helm in most places, using also bogdan set for 5/1/1 setup if I fancy a bit more protection and extra healing. Bogdan shines with refreshing path and upcoming changes will improve it even more. I've found that for me the apprentice (spell pen) mundus is giving the best results at the moment, but this may vary depending on your amount of divines and such. Weapons are torug's dw and master's resto.

To maximise healing by doing damage the spell bars need to be set to allow what I call empowered funnel rotation and to optimise passive benefits from slotting certain spells. The core of my approach lies in Empower and Minor berserk buffs and in maintaining a blanket of buffed funnel HoT.

ghostwise

At level 48 atm. Nb healer w siphon tree and vamp. I feel like a beast in dungeons. My Dps with funnel health an the hot with Mage light and mutagen is sick. I two manned tempest island the other night. I see a bright future with this bamf.

jebuspowers

I honestly haven't met any Nightblade healers, but a couple of my guild mates have grouped with them and said nothing but good things. The Nightblade is an extremely versatile class. However, outside the dps role you have to really be able to look at skills and plan things out well. Funnel health is a staple for NB healers as far as I know. As well as the alternate healing morph of soul shred which I can't remember the name of right now.

I think the critical is good information to put out because I never would have thought that a healer could or should focus on crit index (as in chance % and crit damage). But it is a built in mechanic for nightblades.

Personally I hate playing healer so I always appreciate them as they appreciate me since I play tank. But also much love to good dps because a good healer can heal all day and a good tank can tank all day, but good dps makes sure we never have to.

Savos_Saren

@Cinna & @Attorneyatlawl

I just wanted to thank the both of you. I've been playing a NB Stam Bosmer DPS since beta... but then I saw this post.

I decided to roll with a NB Magicka Dunmer Heal/DPS and it's the most fun I've had in this game!

I think you two have caught on to something in regards to the heals from funnel health... I really think that most people don't realize how powerful the heals can be with the right spell damage and spell crit combo.

With the new update, Funnel Health should drastically increase with the Apprentice mundus stone (weapon damage) and Sap Essence is going to become more powerful as well.

The "vanilla version" of my toon (he's only VR4) is running with 5 pieces of Seducer and 4 pieces of Magnus. (two precise swords for the extra crit and spell power). My jewelry is just whatever random stuff drops that increases magic & spell damage/reduce spell cost. I'll eventually get a matching set for added bonuses. (probably Cyrodiil's Light)

I've tried to optimize my 1st bar with offensive healing and 2nd bar with defensive healing:

Bar 1: Impale (Execute) - Inner Light - Sap Essence (AoE Heal/Dmg) - Funnel Health (Main dmg) - Refreshing Path (path heal)
Bar 2: Mutagen (Oh Sh*t!) - Inner Light - Healing Springs (AoE Heal) - Funnel Health (Main dmg) - Combat Prayer (path heal)

As you can see- when I swap bars, the keys keep somewhat role. An "End all/be all", a toggle, an AoE, my main, and a path that buffs/damages/heals.

Cinna

@jaburns I am glad to hear you're enjoying it! There is more to it though ;p Funnel is not just your main damage spell, it is - or can be - your main heal! I recommed structured entropy for the might of the guild. It will complicate the skill bars a little but it's worth it I tell you. Who needs a Bol if you can have 5k HoT ticking every 1-2secs plus other heals on demand. ^^

And btw, apprentice already is great.

Savos_Saren

@Cinna

So, you prefer Structured Entropy over Sap Essence? I see that they both give you 20% Spell Damage increase. Structured Entropy only heals you, though. However, I can't quite figure out if Structured Entropy gives you the spell damage increase while slotted or for the duration of the spell.

Sap Essence is 20 seconds of 20% Spell Power. Is Structured Entropy 12 seconds of 20% Spell Power or is it 20% Spell Power while slotted on your bar?

Cinna

@jaburns , no. I use both. Entropy is for the passive Might of the guild, I.e. empowering next spell 20%. It conveniently also gives the spell power buff for its duration from range which simplifies things. This is important for strong application of Funnel HoT in the beginning of fights. Refer back to the original post if you don't know how/why. :-)
Sap essence is for aoe damage and keeping spell power up, with the side effect of healing of course.

jebuspowers

Entropy gives the bonus once activated, not slotted.

Flameheart

jaburns wrote: »

@Cinna

So, you prefer Structured Entropy over Sap Essence? I see that they both give you 20% Spell Damage increase. Structured Entropy only heals you, though. However, I can't quite figure out if Structured Entropy gives you the spell damage increase while slotted or for the duration of the spell.

Sap Essence is 20 seconds of 20% Spell Power. Is Structured Entropy 12 seconds of 20% Spell Power or is it 20% Spell Power while slotted on your bar?

Structured Entropy for the single target dps skill bar
Sap Essence for the AoE dps skill bar