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Why I think they shouldn't release the thieves and assassins guilds anytime soon.
lathbury
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WARNING this is probably gonna be a very very long post and I am kinda writing it stream of conciousness so not all ideas are fully fleshed out.
So as I was bored at work wishing I was back in Tamriel I got to thinking about a few threads I had read on missing tropes from the ES series and when the hell part 2 of the justice system will appear. I will say off the bat I am a massive fan of both these guilds and the thieves guild questline in oblivion may be my favourite of any ES game.I also want to say I'm am pretty bad at PVP and I mainly PVE.
Ok with that out of the way I think both guilds and the next phase of the justice system should come together in one massive expansion but the worst thing they could do is rush it this could and in my opinion should be the crown jewel of this MMO. I think they should not however let us know that both guilds are now open. They should let us know it is now possible to join the town guard/enforcers/whatever they name it for the purpose of this guard. Also you should only be able to join one or the other as 1. The guard have a very good vetting policy. 2. the thieves guild do not allow db members as they tend to have murderous tendencies and risk the reputation and extra heat on the guild. 3. sithis has no use for thieves and do gooders.
The Guard
The guard CAN NOT just randomly fight anyone he wants and has a certain area of responsibility like the circle area in other quests this may cover for example the guild trader area in rawlkha but not extend to areas such and outlaw refuge entrances. He/she does not automatically know if you have a bounty etc and cant instigate a violent conflict.
He/she can however ask any player in that area to answer some questions and be searched with cooldown obviously to stop spam/griefing. The suspicious player then has a few options fight/flee/bribe be searched and a couple more unique ones I will go into later. on opting to fight a duel ensues if the guard dies another may offer the same choices againif he is in the same patrol patch. flee is as it sounds but the guard skill line has some very powerful snares and cc and other goodies making this a very risky proposition. Bribe is the interesting one in my opinion I'm mean who said all guards were honest? Or you can accept to be searched now this starts with about a 90% chance that if you have stolen items on you the guard will find them but a certain guild might have some ways to lower this.
If you fail a duel all stolen goods are confiscated and bounty is paid and the guard gains exp in his guard skill line. if the guard catches you in a flee attempt with the capture cc {very short range cc equivalent to slapping the cuffs on name up for debate) again goods confiscated bounty paid. guard gets exp for guard line skills
Bribe is exactly as it seems you go to a menu similar to the trade one and agree a fee the guard does not get exp for this in fact gets a small loss of exp on the guard line.
The guard at least to begin with is in a uniform of some description and receives a moderate amount of gold per in game hour he is on station (this is where some of the gold from your trader bids has been going
). The number of guards on station has a cap not sure what yet and a guard has a certain shift allocated (to stop one guard hogging the spot phasing on the mega server may help here).
his other legitimate source of gold is from tips from you kindly citizens who appreciate him deterring and catching those lousy pickpockets and sneak thieves. Oh yeah should mention you (yes you Mr i just want to PVE in peace dont force me to PVP) can now be pick pocketed not for all your gold mind you that would be to noticeable and hardly fair but say 5% of what your carrying. I would suggest keeping your savings in a bank. But if you are unfortunate enough to get to the store and realise your purse is lighter than it was when you left all is not lost. because if the thief doesn't launder the gold (yes that's a thing too) and is caught/searched by a guard it is mailed to you with the name of the guard.
The guard offer should become available at v12 as no offence but lower than this your not much of a deterrent and you probably have other things to be doing.
Key to balancing this is 1 not having to many patrol spots and not having to many guards on shift in 1 area at the same time.
The thieves guild
We should not KNOW they are in game we should maybe start to hear the odd rumour from npc's gossiping to each other etc but nothing definate ZOS should also keep schtum I know right like that will happen they will market the hell out of it. But ideally once you have for filled certain criteria ahem blackmarket mogul and a few other justice related ones you should receive a random mail telling you to turn up somewhere. on travelling to this location you should be met by a npc member of the thieves guild who is none to happy with you affecting their income but sees your potential and says someone wishes to make you an offer.
enter or rather not as he's been there in the shadows the whole time the grey fox
.
Then ensues a very challenging set of solo quests obviously epic in nature with a lot of sneaking involved lockpicking pickpocketing etc with a massive gold reward
which you are required for membership to donate to the guild to pay for the damages your earlier thieving did. if not your rich in the short term but lose the opportunity to join the guild with hands down the greatest in game earning potential and its skill line.
So what are the perks 1. You do not pay to launder items at the thieves guild hideout. 2. The guards have an option at the start of their shift to accept a sum of money and if they have you can use a dialogue option to avoid a search #pre bribed. 3. you will over time gain access to skills passives and gear granting you bonus such as hidden pockets ie greater chance to pass a search the more points in it, even greater force lock chance, better steath and invisibility ie longer duration invis for pots and skills that grant it, faster sneaking, a good counter to the guards cc and a passive which grants you the ability to find legendary (gold) justice system items. obviously others as well but these are just some ideas you rank up this skill line as you might guess by the amount of gold you make for the guild ie sell to guild fence. you lose a big chunk of exp in the line if caught though. Also as you progress in the guild you will unlock disguises that lok like normal npc clothes like beggar trader etc in various zones to help throw off unwitting guards.
The assassins guild
If you think the above ideas sounded ok. I guess you did if you are still reading this novel. This will be the bit that really makes it take off. For a start off again we should not know they are in game at all maybe the odd subtle clue but thats it. As with the thieves guild there should be a requiste set of achievements I'm thinking murdering 1000 npc's in the justice and killing the emperor in pvp,greater dungeon damage dealer, master monster hunter and deadric lord slayer maybe. Any way regardless of the achieves they should take time and dedication though and prove your traits as a dealer of death. you will get the familiar note '' WE KNOW''. next in game night you will fall to the floor and awake to be confronted by a DB assassin again ensues an epic solo quest line the difficulty of this should be cranked right up to 11 i mean like hardmode sanctum for soloers kinda hard with it testing your sneaking abilities and killing abilities.
So if you pass and are in what do you do then? you may ask. well you gain access to the skill line (more on that later) but you also recieve access to a guild matron who reicieves targets from a listener who gets them from the nightmother who gets them from sithis who gets them from.... thats right other players they must conduct the black sacrament (the items for this should be a PITA to find like purple motif hard ) and offer gold in praise to sithis (the more gold the higher up the list of targets there's goes). they then can and this is the hard bit to program I imagine using a players @name basically flag them for assasination which will involve a very large quest aoe being placed over them like on some of the more PITA fetch quests. The assassin can then contact the player who did the sacrement to discuss the contract and fee.
As you can imagine the DB skill line will be powerful indeed I envision a very high level master assassin being able to successfully 1v1 a current emp in cyrodiil especially if he has the element of surprise. The kicker is the assassin will not even know exactly what the next skill in the skill line does as these are blessing essentially from sithis they will only be visible once received. the skills should make you better at 1v1 and gank style play burst damage naturally but not massively op in general game play but offer significant buffs when attacking the quest target.
you will however still get bounties if seen committing these murders you will stand a better chance than most against guards of escaping or maybe even winning. (balance is key here). as with the thieves guild you will unlock disguises and maybe even a certain mount at the very end I imagine this being sort of like the alliance war line and rank in that you unlock skills to start but after that its a disguise at every other assassin rank maybe some dagger or other at 30 and finally at 50 or whatever maybe a mount. This will be a PITA to do as due to the difficulty of doing it you maybe will get 1 or 2 contracts tops in a week. this is not a way to get rich so levelling this will take a long time like alliance war.
Imagine a rich trade guild owner hiring an assassin to take out a thief who stole a bit of the gold for his bid or is harrassing his customers. or a thief hiring one to kill a guard who refuses to be bought so they can rob some rich folk at the stores untill the next shift arrives. or the emp getting assassinated.
Edited by lathbury on May 20, 2015 8:36PM So as I was bored at work wishing I was back in Tamriel I got to thinking about a few threads I had read on missing tropes from the ES series and when the hell part 2 of the justice system will appear. I will say off the bat I am a massive fan of both these guilds and the thieves guild questline in oblivion may be my favourite of any ES game.I also want to say I'm am pretty bad at PVP and I mainly PVE.
Ok with that out of the way I think both guilds and the next phase of the justice system should come together in one massive expansion but the worst thing they could do is rush it this could and in my opinion should be the crown jewel of this MMO. I think they should not however let us know that both guilds are now open. They should let us know it is now possible to join the town guard/enforcers/whatever they name it for the purpose of this guard. Also you should only be able to join one or the other as 1. The guard have a very good vetting policy. 2. the thieves guild do not allow db members as they tend to have murderous tendencies and risk the reputation and extra heat on the guild. 3. sithis has no use for thieves and do gooders.
The Guard
The guard CAN NOT just randomly fight anyone he wants and has a certain area of responsibility like the circle area in other quests this may cover for example the guild trader area in rawlkha but not extend to areas such and outlaw refuge entrances. He/she does not automatically know if you have a bounty etc and cant instigate a violent conflict.
He/she can however ask any player in that area to answer some questions and be searched with cooldown obviously to stop spam/griefing. The suspicious player then has a few options fight/flee/bribe be searched and a couple more unique ones I will go into later. on opting to fight a duel ensues if the guard dies another may offer the same choices againif he is in the same patrol patch. flee is as it sounds but the guard skill line has some very powerful snares and cc and other goodies making this a very risky proposition. Bribe is the interesting one in my opinion I'm mean who said all guards were honest? Or you can accept to be searched now this starts with about a 90% chance that if you have stolen items on you the guard will find them but a certain guild might have some ways to lower this.
If you fail a duel all stolen goods are confiscated and bounty is paid and the guard gains exp in his guard skill line. if the guard catches you in a flee attempt with the capture cc {very short range cc equivalent to slapping the cuffs on name up for debate) again goods confiscated bounty paid. guard gets exp for guard line skills
Bribe is exactly as it seems you go to a menu similar to the trade one and agree a fee the guard does not get exp for this in fact gets a small loss of exp on the guard line.
The guard at least to begin with is in a uniform of some description and receives a moderate amount of gold per in game hour he is on station (this is where some of the gold from your trader bids has been going
). The number of guards on station has a cap not sure what yet and a guard has a certain shift allocated (to stop one guard hogging the spot phasing on the mega server may help here).his other legitimate source of gold is from tips from you kindly citizens who appreciate him deterring and catching those lousy pickpockets and sneak thieves. Oh yeah should mention you (yes you Mr i just want to PVE in peace dont force me to PVP) can now be pick pocketed not for all your gold mind you that would be to noticeable and hardly fair but say 5% of what your carrying. I would suggest keeping your savings in a bank. But if you are unfortunate enough to get to the store and realise your purse is lighter than it was when you left all is not lost. because if the thief doesn't launder the gold (yes that's a thing too) and is caught/searched by a guard it is mailed to you with the name of the guard.
The guard offer should become available at v12 as no offence but lower than this your not much of a deterrent and you probably have other things to be doing.
Key to balancing this is 1 not having to many patrol spots and not having to many guards on shift in 1 area at the same time.
The thieves guild
We should not KNOW they are in game we should maybe start to hear the odd rumour from npc's gossiping to each other etc but nothing definate ZOS should also keep schtum I know right like that will happen they will market the hell out of it. But ideally once you have for filled certain criteria ahem blackmarket mogul and a few other justice related ones you should receive a random mail telling you to turn up somewhere. on travelling to this location you should be met by a npc member of the thieves guild who is none to happy with you affecting their income but sees your potential and says someone wishes to make you an offer.
enter or rather not as he's been there in the shadows the whole time the grey fox
.Then ensues a very challenging set of solo quests obviously epic in nature with a lot of sneaking involved lockpicking pickpocketing etc with a massive gold reward
which you are required for membership to donate to the guild to pay for the damages your earlier thieving did. if not your rich in the short term but lose the opportunity to join the guild with hands down the greatest in game earning potential and its skill line.
So what are the perks 1. You do not pay to launder items at the thieves guild hideout. 2. The guards have an option at the start of their shift to accept a sum of money and if they have you can use a dialogue option to avoid a search #pre bribed. 3. you will over time gain access to skills passives and gear granting you bonus such as hidden pockets ie greater chance to pass a search the more points in it, even greater force lock chance, better steath and invisibility ie longer duration invis for pots and skills that grant it, faster sneaking, a good counter to the guards cc and a passive which grants you the ability to find legendary (gold) justice system items. obviously others as well but these are just some ideas you rank up this skill line as you might guess by the amount of gold you make for the guild ie sell to guild fence. you lose a big chunk of exp in the line if caught though. Also as you progress in the guild you will unlock disguises that lok like normal npc clothes like beggar trader etc in various zones to help throw off unwitting guards.
The assassins guild
If you think the above ideas sounded ok. I guess you did if you are still reading this novel. This will be the bit that really makes it take off. For a start off again we should not know they are in game at all maybe the odd subtle clue but thats it. As with the thieves guild there should be a requiste set of achievements I'm thinking murdering 1000 npc's in the justice and killing the emperor in pvp,greater dungeon damage dealer, master monster hunter and deadric lord slayer maybe. Any way regardless of the achieves they should take time and dedication though and prove your traits as a dealer of death. you will get the familiar note '' WE KNOW''. next in game night you will fall to the floor and awake to be confronted by a DB assassin again ensues an epic solo quest line the difficulty of this should be cranked right up to 11 i mean like hardmode sanctum for soloers kinda hard with it testing your sneaking abilities and killing abilities.
So if you pass and are in what do you do then? you may ask. well you gain access to the skill line (more on that later) but you also recieve access to a guild matron who reicieves targets from a listener who gets them from the nightmother who gets them from sithis who gets them from.... thats right other players they must conduct the black sacrament (the items for this should be a PITA to find like purple motif hard ) and offer gold in praise to sithis (the more gold the higher up the list of targets there's goes). they then can and this is the hard bit to program I imagine using a players @name basically flag them for assasination which will involve a very large quest aoe being placed over them like on some of the more PITA fetch quests. The assassin can then contact the player who did the sacrement to discuss the contract and fee.
As you can imagine the DB skill line will be powerful indeed I envision a very high level master assassin being able to successfully 1v1 a current emp in cyrodiil especially if he has the element of surprise. The kicker is the assassin will not even know exactly what the next skill in the skill line does as these are blessing essentially from sithis they will only be visible once received. the skills should make you better at 1v1 and gank style play burst damage naturally but not massively op in general game play but offer significant buffs when attacking the quest target.
you will however still get bounties if seen committing these murders you will stand a better chance than most against guards of escaping or maybe even winning. (balance is key here). as with the thieves guild you will unlock disguises and maybe even a certain mount at the very end I imagine this being sort of like the alliance war line and rank in that you unlock skills to start but after that its a disguise at every other assassin rank maybe some dagger or other at 30 and finally at 50 or whatever maybe a mount. This will be a PITA to do as due to the difficulty of doing it you maybe will get 1 or 2 contracts tops in a week. this is not a way to get rich so levelling this will take a long time like alliance war.
Imagine a rich trade guild owner hiring an assassin to take out a thief who stole a bit of the gold for his bid or is harrassing his customers. or a thief hiring one to kill a guard who refuses to be bought so they can rob some rich folk at the stores untill the next shift arrives. or the emp getting assassinated.
5
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lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭whoops that was long must have been a more boring day than I thought there is more but I will spare you unless. you are interested.0 -
Natjur✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nothing new is getting released until the console is released and then another month or two after that.
The only things they are releasing at the moment are cash grab crown store items. This is why most of my guild is now playing Witcher 3 while they wait for ESO to release something new.
I can't believe management of ESO think they can release nothing new for months and still expect the player base to stay around.Edited by Natjur on May 20, 2015 7:23PM8 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah I know that nothings coming for a while but this is my idea of how to make that wait worth it.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Granted I didn't read the whole post but based on the title, it's a little late. Thieves guild has launched. They are probably giving times to see how all the recent changes work before completing this transition.0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Don't worry they wont release it anytime SOON™.ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)3 -
Lenikus✭✭✭✭✭They will release only after the Enforcer system.
....So... rough dates; anywhere around early 2016?... Mai cave. >:30 -
Raash✭✭✭✭I hope you do not take this as an insult, but while I read this I couldnt help but thinking "This is a guy wich is running the fastest he can towards the epic iron wall of disapointment with the aim to breach it with his forehead - and he forgot to put his helmet on!"
An enforcer system would have been cool, but to be honest i cant really imagine they could implement any such systems in a way that would be enough, and especially not in the way you would want it implemented...
For starters such a system would probably not be one where you would have to choose between being a criminal or a cop. Why?
the most obvious one is because there would most definatly be way fewer who would choose to be a cop over a bad guy. And without people wanting to catch bad guys there wont be much reason to have a system = most likely we will get something else wich everyone can use (much like that there is nothing that prevents vampires & werewolves to be in fighters guild etc) .
The system will most probably be way more simpler in its build up then what you propose.
If you make it to hard to earn any of the skill lines there would be a massive sh*tstorm by the 90% of the remaining players wich wont have a chance to get them. imagine the threads on here "i paid for this and cant use it?!" etc. i do not think they will go that route.
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lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭thanks for actually reading it I see your point I have to disagree though with your assumption that more ppl would chose to be criminals. why because a scroll through these very forums seems to indicate there is a high percentage of folks who would like the open world pvp/dueling aspect it would provide. I appreciate though without a very large poll its hard to say.
I am glad that you raised the point of vampires/werewolves and fighters guild it is one of my bugbears that this system allows that. It should be an either or with significant advantages/disadvantages on both sides of the coin.
I agree there probably be a big kick off on here if the skills were hard to obtain but there is precedence for this eg rally and the emperor passives.
I thank you again for actually taking the time to read it and out of interest would you enjoy a more complex implementation of these lines yourself?Edited by lathbury on May 23, 2015 11:30AM0 -
Ranique✭✭✭✭1: allthough ZoS has a tendecy to rush things, I'm starting to see signs, they are being more carefull here.
2: for me, implementing these guilds with any form of PvP is a bad idea. I love the guilds but I hate PvP. Specially I hate open world duelling. I do think there are very much more awesome ways of introducing them while using the current justice system, without going to open world duelling.Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
PC player - EU0 -
Raash✭✭✭✭thanks for actually reading it I see your point I have to disagree though with your assumption that more ppl would chose to be criminals. why because a scroll through these very forums seems to indicate there is a high percentage of folks who would like the open world pvp/dueling aspect it would provide. I appreciate though without a very large poll its hard to say.
I am glad that you raised the point of vampires/werewolves and fighters guild it is one of my bugbears that this system allows that. It should be an either or with significant advantages/disadvantages on both sides of the coin.
I agree there probably be a big kick off on here if the skills were hard to obtain but there is precedence for this eg rally and the emperor passives.
I thank you again for actually taking the time to read it and out of interest would you enjoy a more complex implementation of these lines yourself?
I would like that very much actually. I personally love choices, consequences and tradeoffs when building a character in mmorpgs and regular rpgs. But I have learned during the years that expectations of hyped features, so far, never have been even close to be forfilled.
And I dont think this time would be different.
one thing that constantly get in the way of cool features that could provide dephts and consequences are that many of the players of today doesnt seem to like having to sacrifice something for getting something else... Everyone want to be better or equally good at everything. Masters of all trades and never miss out on anything - no matter what the gains or style would be people just cant stand to be worse at something compared to others.
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Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe I missed this when it was posted!
I actually love the core concepts here. I think for the player guard they would have to have a sort of snare of "Halt!" skill that can stop a player in their area of patrol. What would prevent two players from purposefully creating their own little duel using this system? Or would that be ok?
I've considered the idea of Bounties and Justice PVP and it would work very similar to your Black Sacrament concept. Players would get a bounty for another player and they would get an area to search. If the player asks an NPC if they've seen the bounty target the player will get an update as to the location of the player and possibly a new area to search. A player would use the HALT! skill as you've suggested it to stop the bounty.
I do think the black sacrament should be against NPCs... maybe it should feel something like Assassins Creed where the player stalks their target and decides which NPC is the target based on a description.
Overall I really like your concepts. There could be some issues with pickpocketing and someone ending up broke because 20 people pickpocketed him... but again, I like the core concept.Edited by Gidorick on July 4, 2015 5:07AMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thats long but its been discussed before that Phase 2 of Justice system isnt good to be PVP, instead of guards try to tackle thiefs and put them in handcuffs and thiefs try to dodge away, if they do it like this most PVP-maniacs arent going to be guards/thiefs just for the sake of PVP.0 -
FancyTuna8✭✭✭I also like this idea. Taking the concept of 3 separate choices, there should also be a Hunter group to counter the vamps and werewolves.1
