What killed the stam Sorcerer?

TheBull

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

sadownik

2 words - hardened ward.

TheBull

sadownik wrote: »

2 words - hardened ward.

Too good not to go magicka?

Emma_Overload

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

I was wondering this, too, so a couple days ago I respecced my Magicka Sorc back to Stamina for the first time since 1.6 was on the PTS. At first I was like "This is awesome!" because I was easily hitting 12000 DPS with a classic Dual Wield + Hunding's Rage build.

Then reality set in.

Thanks to the horrible cooldown on Critical Surge heals, you can't just power your way through mobs anymore. You have to be able to effectively use CCs. damage shields, and space openers like Bolt Escape in order to survive tough encounters. Guess what that means... Stamina Sorcs are SCREWED because all our utility spells (Encase, Bolt, Conjured Ward, etc.) use craploads of Magicka that we can't afford, and Stamina morphs are nowhere in sight.

If ZoS wants to save Stamina Sorcs, they need to get rid of the Surge cooldown or give us Stamina morphs of our most important class skills!

LameoveR

ZOS killed stam sorc!

RinaldoGandolphi

I experienced the opposite as a stamina sorc. In pve I could dish out tons of damage, in pvp its quite good built correctly, ask Fengrush how good it is

Father

Lets balance out sorcerers by making harderned ward stamina based and crystal fragements a stamina morph

Zheg

LameoveR wrote: »

ZOS killed stam sorc!

QFT. The devs said changes were coming down the pipe for stam sorcs "after console" (like everything else they've ignored...). I would've liked for them to notice the obvious problems with stam sorcs BEFORE dropping 1.6 and not planning on touching it for another couple of months, but... we're dealing with ZOS so baby steps I guess.

If you dump heavily into wep power and your points into stam, your overload can still hit like a truck. You won't do as well as a magicka build because when they do the same thing their hardened ward ends up giving absurd defense, but it's at least enough to get by.

Suru

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

I was wondering this, too, so a couple days ago I respecced my Magicka Sorc back to Stamina for the first time since 1.6 was on the PTS. At first I was like "This is awesome!" because I was easily hitting 12000 DPS with a classic Dual Wield + Hunding's Rage build.

Then reality set in.

Thanks to the horrible cooldown on Critical Surge heals, you can't just power your way through mobs anymore. You have to be able to effectively use CCs. damage shields, and space openers like Bolt Escape in order to survive tough encounters. Guess what that means... Stamina Sorcs are SCREWED because all our utility spells (Encase, Bolt, Conjured Ward, etc.) use craploads of Magicka that we can't afford, and Stamina morphs are nowhere in sight.

If ZoS wants to save Stamina Sorcs, they need to get rid of the Surge cooldown or give us Stamina morphs of our most important class skills!

For stam sorc should the surge CD not even affect them? With wrecking blow and snipe. Only issue being poisen arrow if you use bow, along with rapid strikes which is channeled But ofc if using that you can expect surge to heal slightly less and ive heard good things with it ad steel tornado. Just curious As the wweapon power morph to be good.

Snit

Father wrote: »

Lets balance out sorcerers by making harderned ward stamina based and crystal fragements a stamina morph

The morph that nobody uses -- the one that isn't frags -- does seem like an appropriate spot to give stam sorcs a toy.

Snit

Suru wrote: »

For stam sorc should the surge CD not even affect them? With wrecking blow and snipe. Only issue being poisen arrow if you use bow, along with rapid strikes which is channeled But ofc if using that you can expect surge to heal slightly less and ive heard good things with it ad steel tornado. Just curious As the wweapon power morph to be good.

Lightning Form is one of the sorc's better spells for melee range. And it's a DoT.

Mivryna

Surge was given an internal cooldown, which means every time you get a heal from it, none of your damage tics will give you any healing until the cooldown is finished. It was 1 second before, but they lowered it to like, 0.25s or something. This isn't so bad for two-handers since they mostly focus on big single attacks, but it ruins Surge's compatibility with AoEs, DoTs, and faster attacks.

As Surge was a stamina sorcerer's only reliable combat heal, they are now rather helpless.

TheBull

Umbranox wrote: »

Surge was given an internal cooldown, which means every time you get a heal from it, none of your damage tics will give you any healing until the cooldown is finished. It was 1 second before, but they lowered it to like, 0.25s or something. This isn't so bad for two-handers since they mostly focus on big single attacks, but it ruins Surge's compatibility with AoEs, DoTs, and faster attacks.

As Surge was a stamina sorcerer's only reliable combat heal, they are now rather helpless.

I hear the surge nerf for pve caused issues, but for pvp I don't think it is a big deal. I was asking more from a pvp perspective. There used to be 2h sorcs all over. not you can't find one.

Tankqull

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

you are under the missconception that it was ever alive

sadownik

TheBull wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

2 words - hardened ward.

Too good not to go magicka?

exactly mate.

Arunei

Zheg wrote: »

If you dump heavily into wep power and your points into stam, your overload can still hit like a truck.

Hate to hijack the thread, but I was just asking some guildies last night about this. Overload is based of weapon power then, and is affected by Surge? I was trying to figure out if it would be or not, since Ults tend not to say anything about being tied to spell or weapon damage (and therefore being affected by things that boost spell or weapon damage).

Iselin

Tankqull wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

you are under the missconception that it was ever alive

Too true

What's wrong is that there is very little in the Sorc active and passive skills that enhance stamina or weapon damage. When you start plotting out what skills to use as a stamina sorc, you quickly realize that just about everything you use comes from a skill line that isn't from the sorc lines. So then you ask yourself, "why am I playing a sorc?"

There are a few passives here and there that help (Power Stone ultimate cost reduction, Unholy knowledge reduces magicka and stamina costs) and 1 toggle ability that gives you + stamina and + heavy attack damage and, I guess, if you don't use a 2HD (and I have no idea why a stamina build wouldn't) I guess Critical Surge is lesser, poor man's Rally.

It's not that it can't be done, it's just that the other 3 classes have more stamina love in them, so why bother?

Acrolas

Isn't the sorç pet a way to deal stam/melee style damage without taking the damage associated with close-range combat? That lets you keep the light armor and its magicka perks.

A stam build with medium armor would work, but after a certain point, a lack of magicka makes the sorç not much of a sorç anymore. Stam sorç probably won't be popularized until some sort of hybrid class creation is developed where you keep two skill lines and add a third from another class.

Give a stam sorç one nightblade skill line, and they're in business.

Iselin

Acrolas wrote: »

Isn't the sorç pet a way to deal stam/melee style damage without taking the damage associated with close-range combat? That lets you keep the light armor and its magicka perks.

A stam build with medium armor would work, but after a certain point, a lack of magicka makes the sorç not much of a sorç anymore. Stam sorç probably won't be popularized until some sort of hybrid class creation is developed where you keep two skill lines and add a third from another class.

Give a stam sorç one nightblade skill line, and they're in business.

Both pets scale what little damage they do off magicka and/or spell damage. The Twilight's main use is its party-wide magicka regen aura and the Clanfear is a good PVE tank for one mob and can heal you some by unsummoning. They're viable magicka abilities for a stamina build because they're toggles but don't enhance the build much... and they're next to useless in PVP.

Xsorus

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

I was wondering this, too, so a couple days ago I respecced my Magicka Sorc back to Stamina for the first time since 1.6 was on the PTS. At first I was like "This is awesome!" because I was easily hitting 12000 DPS with a classic Dual Wield + Hunding's Rage build.

Then reality set in.

Thanks to the horrible cooldown on Critical Surge heals, you can't just power your way through mobs anymore. You have to be able to effectively use CCs. damage shields, and space openers like Bolt Escape in order to survive tough encounters. Guess what that means... Stamina Sorcs are SCREWED because all our utility spells (Encase, Bolt, Conjured Ward, etc.) use craploads of Magicka that we can't afford, and Stamina morphs are nowhere in sight.

If ZoS wants to save Stamina Sorcs, they need to get rid of the Surge cooldown or give us Stamina morphs of our most important class skills!

Say what? There is absolutely zero reason you should be have any trouble on any class right now with two hander in Solo PvE

Brawler + Rally makes it so you can take on pretty much any group of Mobs currently out there and not die.

tordr86b16_ESO

hardened ward is op.

Iselin

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

hardened ward is op.

For magicka builds that can keep recasting... not so much for a stamina build.

Emma_Overload

Suru wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

I was wondering this, too, so a couple days ago I respecced my Magicka Sorc back to Stamina for the first time since 1.6 was on the PTS. At first I was like "This is awesome!" because I was easily hitting 12000 DPS with a classic Dual Wield + Hunding's Rage build.

Then reality set in.

Thanks to the horrible cooldown on Critical Surge heals, you can't just power your way through mobs anymore. You have to be able to effectively use CCs. damage shields, and space openers like Bolt Escape in order to survive tough encounters. Guess what that means... Stamina Sorcs are SCREWED because all our utility spells (Encase, Bolt, Conjured Ward, etc.) use craploads of Magicka that we can't afford, and Stamina morphs are nowhere in sight.

If ZoS wants to save Stamina Sorcs, they need to get rid of the Surge cooldown or give us Stamina morphs of our most important class skills!

For stam sorc should the surge CD not even affect them? With wrecking blow and snipe. Only issue being poisen arrow if you use bow, along with rapid strikes which is channeled But ofc if using that you can expect surge to heal slightly less and ive heard good things with it ad steel tornado. Just curious As the wweapon power morph to be good.

Wrecking Blow and Snipe are fine for single targets, but what about large groups of mobs? You can hit a dozen mobs or more with Steel Tornado... but you only get to crit heal off of ONE of them, thanks to the cooldown. That means your HPS is going to be capped at around 1500, no matter how many mobs you're fighting. That is just not enough in some situations. Stamina Sorcs need a Ward morph scaled to Stamina or a much better self-heal.

Egonieser

Why on gods green earth anyone would wanna roll a stamina sorcerer? That's like going jogging with steel toe-capped boots on. It's obvious the class was intended as magicka+staff based to begin with. All skills and utilities work best that way. Why purposely handicap yourself? There are classes that handle better for stamina builds and sorc is definitely not one of them.

JD2013

Video. It also killed the radio star.

Gosh darn it.

Emma_Overload

Arunei wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

If you dump heavily into wep power and your points into stam, your overload can still hit like a truck.

Hate to hijack the thread, but I was just asking some guildies last night about this. Overload is based of weapon power then, and is affected by Surge? I was trying to figure out if it would be or not, since Ults tend not to say anything about being tied to spell or weapon damage (and therefore being affected by things that boost spell or weapon damage).

Fortunately, Overload's damage (and crit) is based off whichever stat is stronger on your build. So my Overloads hit just as hard regardless of whether I spec for Stamina and Weapon Damage or Magicka and Spell Damage.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

One of my favorite topics. 2H sorc was probably the most fun I have ever had in this game. Nothing more thrilling than streaking around between enemies and crit rushing them while crit surge keeping you alive. Sadly my sorcerer is now a stick wielding dress parade like all the rest. What killed me and countless others?


Yolo Presents: Top 5 ESO changes that killed the Stamina Sorc.

1. The death of hybrid builds. Stam sorc was never a pure stamina build as it relied on magicka DPS as well. This isn't viable in 1.6 and sorcerer currently lacks the magicka based utilities spells all other classes have that support stamina DPS builds and make them viable.
2. The nerf to Health. Patch 1.6 Stole about 15K resources from everyone's attribute pool and locked them behind the champion system, the new undaunted passives, and heavy armor. This is one of the main reason hybrid builds aren't viable now and it made a squishy build even squishier.
3. The terrible cooldown placed on critical surge where one DOT can block you from a huge heal.
4. The nerf to the "Expert Mage" passive that reduced cost of storm calling abilities by 10%. Not an issue for magicka sorcs but it makes these crucial utility spells prohibitively expensive for stamina sorc - including the gimped crit surge.
5. The insane TTK (time to kill) in PvP, combined with no class based damage mitigation tools or heals that are effective or compatible with a stamina build.

I have a longer explanation of why stamina works for other classes but not sorcerer HERE.
The short explaination is that stam builds need magicka based utility spells to support them. Examples for all the other classes are provided in the link.

Here is what needs to change for stam sorc to be competitive with the other class stamina builds. .

1. The cost of magicka based utility spells need to decrease. Here is how you do it without making existing sorcerer magicka stacking builds even more powerful:
   Expert mage passive: If magicka pool > stamina pool, increase spell power per sorc ability slotted.
   If stamina pool > magicka pool: reduce cost of ALL sorc skills by 10%.
2. Critical surge needs its own cost reduction - beyond the 10% decrease described above. Its currently too expensive even for magicka builds for what it does. The CD issue still persists making the skill ineffective but that is a different issue.
3. Change the Streak Morph of Bolt Escape so that melee attacks remove the increased magicka cost if used within 4 seconds. Stamina users use this skill offensively, for positioning - not to run away. The main issue everyone has with BE is when it is spammed and used as an actual escape. If the four second timer (that makes the skill cost 50% more) was removed (upon using a MELEE weapon light/heavy attack OR melee weapon skill), it could still be used smartly in offensive situations without a prohibitive magicka cost. This would give stam sorcs some degree of the mobility that magicka sorcs have without making magicka sorcs any more powerful and still taxing BE if used to actually escape. This change would also make Sorc tanking viable as you could taunt a boss, bolt, then taunt again effectively kiting bosses in PvE with a tank build heavily invested in stamina. It would be a fun mechanic, and give sorcs some incentive to stay in the fight rather than running away.
4. Sorcs need some stam/health return utility as other classes have. There are several ways to do this. Make the morph of dark exchange (that costs mag and returns health/stam) instant or remove the snare on it at least. Make bound armaments give minor stam regen or lightning form give major stam regen.

Emma_Overload

Xsorus wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Many months ago I started a Sorc. He was going to be stam. About a week a go I mustered the courage to grind him through the vet . Turns out I played stam for about a day. I plan to revisit stam builds once I learn the class a bit better, but everyone keeps telling the stam sorc is dead. Why? What killed the stam sorc?

I haven\t noticed any major changes other than rally and surge not stacking anymore. Explain please!

I was wondering this, too, so a couple days ago I respecced my Magicka Sorc back to Stamina for the first time since 1.6 was on the PTS. At first I was like "This is awesome!" because I was easily hitting 12000 DPS with a classic Dual Wield + Hunding's Rage build.

Then reality set in.

Thanks to the horrible cooldown on Critical Surge heals, you can't just power your way through mobs anymore. You have to be able to effectively use CCs. damage shields, and space openers like Bolt Escape in order to survive tough encounters. Guess what that means... Stamina Sorcs are SCREWED because all our utility spells (Encase, Bolt, Conjured Ward, etc.) use craploads of Magicka that we can't afford, and Stamina morphs are nowhere in sight.

If ZoS wants to save Stamina Sorcs, they need to get rid of the Surge cooldown or give us Stamina morphs of our most important class skills!

Say what? There is absolutely zero reason you should be have any trouble on any class right now with two hander in Solo PvE

Brawler + Rally makes it so you can take on pretty much any group of Mobs currently out there and not die.

There are certain groups of mobs in the instanced Dungeons (both Vet and Non-Vet) and the Upper Craglorn delves that individually do more DPS than each hit of Brawler provides a shield for... that math eventually results in a dead Sorc, assuming he doesn't have a healer following him around.

Father

Tbh before update 6 I was really happy with my stamina sorc..what really killed it was the CD on surge. that gimped my DW dagger build soooo bad :<

nicholasmccullinb14_ESO

I don't think anything is wrong with Sorc Stam builds. Sure Crit surge heal being used by a DOT is ridiculous. But that isn't what made sorc stam great. The problem is, most people don't have a sorc with a class that makes a stam build better. Which it would need to be on Par with the other classes, specifically Templar and NB. Sorc magicka dps is so much better at this point that unless you are a khajit or imperial, a stam build sorc is less efficient. I have run my sorc through VDSA as a stam and it works just fine.