The 30 minutes underwater discussion on ESO Live.

Drazhar14

It's ironic because they make it seem so difficult, yet they could just copy the underwater exploration from Skyrim. Also, I heard there was underwater exploration in early beta builds.

Acrolas

We all know work is hard. That's why it's called work. I don't need a perspective piece on work.

Just do the work and do it well. That's what makes people happy and wanting more. When a product works for them instead of having to work for the product and make excuses for its shortcomings.


When you start going on about how hard this is or that is and going through the steps on how it could happen, maybe, one day, that just tells me you're more interested in ideas than results. Talking is easy. You can talk indefinitely while getting absolutely nothing done.

The people interested in results are too busy making things happen. They don't talk about Phase 3 until Phase 1 is earned through sweat, sleepless nights, and a little luck. Because there won't be a Phase 3 if you don't work your butt off on the product right in front of you.

There's still a lot of work to be done on Phase 1 of TESO. Yes it takes time. Yes it takes effort. Developers aren't exactly masters of public speaking so why not let them just do their job instead of the "Well, um, you know..." verbal pause game for two hours. Give me a two-paragraph memo on the dev blog that you accomplished something major today and then let's get back to our busy lives.

RazzPitazz

The idea was to express how difficult it would be to justify why they WON'T be doing it. Quite frankly a waste of air time to me but I am only one.

Faulgor

I found it disturbing for the opposite reason: That they basically made it sound impossible to implement when it has been done over a decade ago in Morrowind. Most of what they mentioned are just design choices, which simply require a decision and not a lot of effort. The effort is in the work itself, and if they are not willing to do it, I'd rather hear about the things they are willing to add to the game.
This segment taught me nothing, except that I still have no idea what the developers are doing all the time. The champion and justice system as well as the console version did certainly not occupy the whole team. I liked the talk with the concept artist, but he presented work he had done 2 years ago by his own words ... so for months now we haven't heard any news what's up next, and then you give us a segment that shows us what we got a year ago and one that talks about stuff we are not going to get ...

Raash

I agree with you OP, to me it most sounded more of a make up trying to cover a sore beaten face.

Artemiisia

I would actually love a underwater place, where you have to swim to get to the trial/dungeon and the wayshrine is just outside the place, so you cant skip it

Epona222

I don't understand why some people don't understand the entire point of the discussion.

Just to make it absolutely clear, for those of you who don't do subtle and need to have it spelled out slowly:

The discussion was not saying "this is what we are doing to add underwater stuff to ESO". The point of the discussion was to address people who clamour for things like underwater stuff, and point out the massive sort of effort it would take to put it in the game.

I fear for the world if people do not understand this sort of discussion.

Moonshadow66

Hehe, I first read "The 30 minutes underwear discussion on ESO Live."
Would have been interesting, too

Gyudan

Many games have underwater content. It's not an impossible feat of game design but of course it takes dev time, especially with the size of ESO's maps.

Suggestion:
1) Get an agreement with Bethesda to copy the character animation from Skyrim.
2) Don't redo all the existing zones yet. Instead, just set water boundaries properly in the incoming content and add cool stuff underwater.
3) Revisit default zones once in a while.

I found the section very boring, even though I was interested in the subject.

Epona222

Tbh the only thing that has ever made me want to swim underwater in any game ever is Morrowind+Abot's Sea Life mod.

GamerzElite

Can I use Fire Staff underwater?

Killum

timidobserver wrote: »

I would be interested in hearing some dev shop talk like today's episode, but it needs to be on a remotely interesting topic. The best underwater combat in an MMO is GW2 and even that is a waste of space. I'd like to see a better topic chosen next time.

I thought GW2 Did underwater extremely well even though it was underused. I would not want it in ESO though, hypothetically or not.

Sharee

I am one of the odd people who really enjoyed Trials of Atlantis expansion in DAoC, so any talk of underwater content makes me excited

Muizer

Faulgor wrote: »

I found it disturbing for the opposite reason: That they basically made it sound impossible to implement when it has been done over a decade ago in Morrowind. Most of what they mentioned are just design choices, which simply require a decision and not a lot of effort. The effort is in the work itself, and if they are not willing to do it, I'd rather hear about the things they are willing to add to the game.

I agree completely. They should have known lots of ESO players have played TES games that actually have under-water swimming/exploration at the least. Yet they were sitting there as if they were discussing the risks and challenges of venturing off into unknown territory. WTF? If there was anything to discuss about under-water acitivty it would be "Compared to earlier TES games, what's different about ESO that made us decide not to implement it".

firstdecan

Epona222 wrote: »

I don't understand why some people don't understand the entire point of the discussion.

Just to make it absolutely clear, for those of you who don't do subtle and need to have it spelled out slowly:

The discussion was not saying "this is what we are doing to add underwater stuff to ESO". The point of the discussion was to address people who clamour for things like underwater stuff, and point out the massive sort of effort it would take to put it in the game.

I fear for the world if people do not understand this sort of discussion.

But they basically spelled it out right there. In 30 minutes of off the cuff discussion, they effectively devised a strategy for implementing this feature in the game. This would indicate that it's not as hard as they're making it out to be, that they understand what needs to be done to implement it, and are just unwilling to do so. That's fine, it's their design decision, it's just that the ease by which something like that can be outlined undermines their claim regarding what a "monumental" effort it is.

EQBallzz

Vonovosi wrote: »

Yes, I find this disturbing as well. But what else are ZOS devs going to talk about? There is no new content coming in the near future and that is something ZOS never wants to talk about.

Exactly. I thought the same thing. The conversation was mildly interesting but in the context of the current game I think it's pretty telling. Is this what we have to look forward to? More "theoretical" discussions of content that isn't being added to the game in lieu of any discussions for actual new content? It even ends with him asking for more suggestions of things we want added to the game so they can presumably explain in detail in a future segment why it would be too much work to add to the game.

It would be nice to get some actual updates on the game instead of theoretical discussions of what isn't possible or likely. Maybe next time they can have more segments on why all the stuff at Quakcon 2014 isn't being released/is too hard to implement. Seems like spellcrafting is already queued up for an "Armchair Dev" segment.

lathbury

agree waste of time discussing things they dont plan on implementing. would have rather heard about exciting things they are doing spell crafting imperial city etc.
however '''we all live in a dwemer submarine chant from chat is still stuck in my head'' who ever started that is a damn genius.

Raash

GamerzElite wrote: »

Can I use Fire Staff underwater?

The really big question is what would happen if the flaming horse where to dive into water...

Gidorick

Faulgor wrote: »

I found it disturbing for the opposite reason: That they basically made it sound impossible to implement when it has been done over a decade ago in Morrowind. Most of what they mentioned are just design choices, which simply require a decision and not a lot of effort. The effort is in the work itself, and if they are not willing to do it, I'd rather hear about the things they are willing to add to the game.
This segment taught me nothing, except that I still have no idea what the developers are doing all the time. The champion and justice system as well as the console version did certainly not occupy the whole team. I liked the talk with the concept artist, but he presented work he had done 2 years ago by his own words ... so for months now we haven't heard any news what's up next, and then you give us a segment that shows us what we got a year ago and one that talks about stuff we are not going to get ...

I really enjoyed hearing their thoughts about what it would take to make underwater environments and combat. Most of those who are asking for it know it will be a lot of work. Many of the things I've posted as suggestions is because I know it would be a lot of work and I would like to provide feedback for them to consider during the planning stages. I guess that would be feedforward. heheh.

All and all, I didn't learn anything new either. They did present some issues I hadn't considered, but I'm a lone player who isn't a designer and I'm certainly not part of a team like they are.

Realistically, now that ESO is B2P and it isn't supported by a subscription requirement, this sort of effort is very unlikely to ever happen. How would they charge for this effort? They couldn't have ALL underwater behind a paywall.

The biggest message I received from this is that the silly little things we post on here aren't forwarded onto the appropriate teams. Not once did they reference anything us players have suggested. The community team could have gone through our posts, pulled out pertinent comments and presented it to the "Brainstorming team" before the segment. They spent a LONG time talking about underwater combat and many players have outright said "naw... no underwater combat is needed."

I enjoyed the segment but it left me feeling a bit pessimistic about the future of ESO and very disheartened about this forum.

I can't wait until the next one!

Gidorick

firstdecan wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

I don't understand why some people don't understand the entire point of the discussion.

Just to make it absolutely clear, for those of you who don't do subtle and need to have it spelled out slowly:

The discussion was not saying "this is what we are doing to add underwater stuff to ESO". The point of the discussion was to address people who clamour for things like underwater stuff, and point out the massive sort of effort it would take to put it in the game.

I fear for the world if people do not understand this sort of discussion.

But they basically spelled it out right there. In 30 minutes of off the cuff discussion, they effectively devised a strategy for implementing this feature in the game. This would indicate that it's not as hard as they're making it out to be, that they understand what needs to be done to implement it, and are just unwilling to do so. That's fine, it's their design decision, it's just that the ease by which something like that can be outlined undermines their claim regarding what a "monumental" effort it is.

I kind of got the feeling that they were thinking 30 minutes of explaining how much work it would take would cause us to simply say "oh man, I had no idea... nevermind, we don't need that." When my first reaction was "Great first brainstorming meeting guys, now take those notes... expand on them... and make a plan to get us underwater!"

Oh, and by NO means does being underwater mean that we MUST now be able to be in the sky. Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion all had underwater with no flying.

maryriv

Umbranox wrote: »

I think part of it was that they may have wanted players to understand just how much work it actually takes to put a new feature into the game. Many people have desires for the game, some reasonable and some not. Underwater content is one of the slightly less reasonable ones. It should have been implemented from the very beginning if they wanted it at all. It's not impossible to add it now, but there are certainly better projects they could dedicate themselves to.

Fans should keep these things in mind when making requests.

On a side note, please no flying mounts EVER.

If this is the case, I feel (at least in my case) that an honest up front statement would have been a breath of fresh air. The OP is correct, as much as I would LOVE not being dismounted when my horse puts a toe in water, or even diving and underwater combat, I would have MUCH rather have had real issues disgusted.

CP5

firstdecan wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

I don't understand why some people don't understand the entire point of the discussion.

Just to make it absolutely clear, for those of you who don't do subtle and need to have it spelled out slowly:

The discussion was not saying "this is what we are doing to add underwater stuff to ESO". The point of the discussion was to address people who clamour for things like underwater stuff, and point out the massive sort of effort it would take to put it in the game.

I fear for the world if people do not understand this sort of discussion.

But they basically spelled it out right there. In 30 minutes of off the cuff discussion, they effectively devised a strategy for implementing this feature in the game. This would indicate that it's not as hard as they're making it out to be, that they understand what needs to be done to implement it, and are just unwilling to do so. That's fine, it's their design decision, it's just that the ease by which something like that can be outlined undermines their claim regarding what a "monumental" effort it is.

So, doubling the number of animations at least, heavily altering the entire combat system far beyond what has already been implemented, manipulating the users client with a massive amount of audio and visual changes, and altering key parts of the game like looting and movement is "not as hard as they're making it out to be"?

And all of this over a network, with all these extra bits of information being sent couldn't possibly cause more lag. Sorry if I sound rude in saying this but this comment goes to the people who think this is easy, and that ZOS can just "copy past elder scrolls under water systems/animations," that no, it is not that easy at all. The point of this segment was to have devs discuss ideas and this idea had a lot to work with.

We don't know what they will discuss next time but its likely their followup segments won't be all over sized projects and maybe they will discuss something that they may end up implementing someday. But they chose under water content to discuss and its clear that the community needs this segment in eso live more than most else.

LtCrunch

Drazhar14 wrote: »

It's ironic because they make it seem so difficult, yet they could just copy the underwater exploration from Skyrim. Also, I heard there was underwater exploration in early beta builds.

You don't understand how game development works do you?

Parrotbrain

The money they spent creating this 30-minute segment could rather have been used towards developing features like spell crafting. Other than the production costs, they paid those people presenting in the video for contributing towards a pointless discussion.

Personally I felt like they were trying to dissuade people from asking for features by presenting a 30 minute brainstorm in which they did their utmost to overcomplicate the whole issue. I am sure that with some additional effort and front-end-loading the actual amount of man-hours going into creating underwater exploration would be less than the figure presented before the show (I think he said it was a 100 man-hours, I can't remember off-hand)

Gidorick

Parrotbrain wrote: »

The money they spent creating this 30-minute segment could rather have been used towards developing features like spell crafting. Other than the production costs, they paid those people presenting in the video for contributing towards a pointless discussion.

Personally I felt like they were trying to dissuade people from asking for features by presenting a 30 minute brainstorm in which they did their utmost to overcomplicate the whole issue. I am sure that with some additional effort and front-end-loading the actual amount of man-hours going into creating underwater exploration would be less than the figure presented before the show (I think he said it was a 100 man-hours, I can't remember off-hand)

They said it would take "a year" before the segment even began.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Brandalf wrote: »

You don't understand how game development works do you?

I don't know the first thing about computer tech, so I apologize if my asking this makes me sound quaint.

While I am a fan of underwater content, I don't mind if they ever add it to this game.

But what about allowing us to dive under what already exists?

I mean, one of our playable species is amphibious (Argonians) so - to me - it makes no sense to NOT be able to at least dive under what's there.

Dumb question?

CP5

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

You don't understand how game development works do you?

I don't know the first thing about computer tech, so I apologize if my asking this makes me sound quaint.

While I am a fan of underwater content, I don't mind if they ever add it to this game.

But what about allowing us to dive under what already exists?

I mean, one of our playable species is amphibious (Argonians) so - to me - it makes no sense to NOT be able to at least dive under what's there.

Dumb question?

Making that work in game is far more complicated than that.

UrQuan

Brandalf wrote: »

Drazhar14 wrote: »

It's ironic because they make it seem so difficult, yet they could just copy the underwater exploration from Skyrim. Also, I heard there was underwater exploration in early beta builds.

You don't understand how game development works do you?

Clearly he does not. The same could be said for a lot of people posting.

olemanwinter

Epona222 wrote: »

I don't understand why some people don't understand the entire point of the discussion.

Just to make it absolutely clear, for those of you who don't do subtle and need to have it spelled out slowly:

The discussion was not saying "this is what we are doing to add underwater stuff to ESO". The point of the discussion was to address people who clamour for things like underwater stuff, and point out the massive sort of effort it would take to put it in the game.

I fear for the world if people do not understand this sort of discussion.

So, everything breaks down into 3 catagories.

1) The stuff they take the time to explain why we will never get (like this underwater nonsense)

2) The stuff they told us we would get but have been delayed indefinitely (like spell crafting or justice system pvp)

3) Stuff they won't speak about at all, which means we might one day get it....whatever it is?

What a great company. Glad I'm supporting them.

Sevalaricgirl

doggie wrote: »

Dixa wrote: »

they claimed Lotro made 100$m in 2013, and that just dosen't add up compared to the development in the game, if they made 100$m you would think they would release more content to keep more of the players?

You actually believe that? Just because they make a lot of money doesn't mean that they're going to reinvest it.