[Spoiler] Molag Bal's adversaries

minfaer

One thing that has always bugged me about the story: Why would it be Meridia to interfere with the planemeld? Sure, she hate Molag Bal for creating Vampires, but else?

Moreover, considering that Bal's realm is mostly about domination and oppression, his greatest enemy would be Mehrunes Dagon, Prince of Revolution and violent change! Wouldn't it be super cool to be caught in a war between Dagon's four-armed-axe-wielding violence revolt and Bal's scheming reign?

Come to think of it, it very much feels like "We need a motherly female Daedra somehow connected to a light-theme, worked well with Azura back in the days!"
And why isn't Meridia fighting Nocturnal? Don't say they're best friends in antithetic connection, we all saw how well that wworked with Sheo and Jyg, and they were even the SAME character!

So, what would be your explanation? Would you like to see these things addressed in an addon/DLC, maybe have Merunes Dagon appear?

Edit: Title edited to remove spoiler.

UrQuan

I figured it was just a personal grudge against Molag Bal for the whole Hollow City thing...

PKMN12

Meridia does not just dislike undead, not even hate them, she DESPISES them with every OUNCE of her being. IT is also just not vampires, as Molag bal also is using Soul Shriven, skeletons, and zombies in his army. Meridia is also one of the very few of the DAedric Princes who seems, at least to some extent, to be on the Mortal's side

Carnagan

What Molag Bal is doing is the epitome of destruction, strife and violent change, so there's no reason he would directly oppose that. But you're missing a big piece of the puzzle.

Bal doesn't do anything on a whim. His plans are long and very complicated. Even when he loses he wins. So he isn't going to do something like this if he isn't sure the other Princes will stay out of his way. Smaller deals to get a bigger whole, and the hint of something worse coming that you get at the end of the main quest suggests he might have had some leverage that helped the other Princes see this as the best course of action.

Now consider Meridia. She despises Bal and stands in opposition to him. If anyone would be unwilling to make a deal with him it would be her. If she didn't believe that Bal's plan was the only choice then she would likely do whatever she could to screw him over.

minfaer

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UrQuan wrote: »

I figured it was just a personal grudge against Molag Bal for the whole Hollow City thing...

Don't think so... she said she had planned that, besides, fighters guild story shows the followers of the two fighting each other before..

UrQuan

minfaer wrote: »

Don't think so... she said she had planned that, besides, fighters guild story shows the followers of the two fighting each other before...

You're right - I chose my words poorly: I didn't mean to say "for" the whole Hollow City thing, I meant "around" the whole Hollow City thing. What I really meant is that it seems like a personal grudge that's been going on between them since long before the plane meld, and the whole Hollow City history, and the quests around bringing it back to life, show some of the history of that personal grudge.

minfaer

Okay, I can live with those explanations, thanks! Still, I hope for Dagon to come into play!

PKMN12

minfaer wrote: »

Okay, I can live with those explanations, thanks! Still, I hope for Dagon to come into play!

IF he does, it will be as a villian again.

Shaarizad

Molag Bal and Meridia do form an antithetical pair in certain respects, if you look at the part of their domains that include desecration and sanctity, respectively. Meridia wants to keep everything under her domain clean, pure and sacred. Molag Bal wants to taint all things sacred, tear down all things pure, all in order to demonstrate his domination over them. The Song of Lamae Bal (origin of the vampires) is one example of this, and the Hollow City is another. They aren't always polar opposites, but it's fair to assume they've wracked up their fair share of animosity.
I do like the idea of Mehrunes Dagon as an enemy to Molag Bal. However, at the time when the game takes place, Molag Bal is actually more an agent of change than an agent of oppression. Yes, his final goal is oppression, but his means to achieve it involve a lot of violent change (the dark anchors, war, pain and destruction across the land). I can totally see Dagon causing chaos to "shake things up" in a situation where Molag Bal has exerted his domination and caused stasis through oppression, but for now it think Dagon is OK to sit by and just mess with some bosmer.

Cinbri

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

PKMN12

Cinbri wrote: »

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

um, no, they are not good or evil, more like Blue and Orange with their Morality. that has ALWAYS been the major thing with TES, that the Daedra are NOT good or evil, they are neither, they think on a completely different wavelength to us.

Also, yeah please, call AZura, the patron of the Dunmer, evil............

minfaer

Shaarizad wrote: »

Meridia wants to keep everything under her domain clean, pure and sacred.

The way I see it, she only wants this to show her domination... Everything must be shiny and pure. Actually, she looks very theocratical. I agree this is not Bal's way, but I dont like or trust her either, she just doesn't like the looks of Bal's way, but in core, she also seeks domination over Nirn, I believe

Shaarizad

Cinbri wrote: »

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

Actually, one of the core aspects of Daedra and Daedric Princes is that they don't subscribe to normal morality, good or evil. They are the embodiment of their domain, and they don't particularly care about human morality. Take Peryite, for example. He is the embodiment of disease; his plagues kill a lot of people, but he doesn't particularly enjoy death. He also serves to maintain natural

Cinbri wrote: »

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

Actually, one of the core aspects of Daedra and Daedric Princes is that they don't subscribe to normal morality, good or evil. They are the embodiment of their domain, and they don't particularly care about human morality. Take Peryite, for example. He is the embodiment of disease; his plagues kill a lot of people, but he doesn't particularly enjoy death. He also serves to maintain natural order; weeding out the weak, clearing overcrowded cities, checking the hubris of men. He provides cures, to those he deems worthy; because every cure is a poison used carefully.

Even Mehrunes Dagon, one of the biggest ***holes around, is no more "evil" than an earthquake or a tornado.

In short, the Daedric Princes are not evil, and they are certainly not Evil. They are what their realms make them.

Shaarizad

minfaer wrote: »

Shaarizad wrote: »

Meridia wants to keep everything under her domain clean, pure and sacred.

The way I see it, she only wants this to show her domination... Everything must be shiny and pure. Actually, she looks very theocratical. I agree this is not Bal's way, but I dont like or trust her either, she just doesn't like the looks of Bal's way, but in core, she also seeks domination over Nirn, I believe

I agree, I'm not trying to say Meridia is a good guy. She can be fanatical in her pursuit of purity, and violent in her protection of what she deems sacred. Look no further than Oblivion's Knights of the Nine DLC. She decided to take the side of the slave-holding, torture-loving Ayleids against one of the greatest empires of men because the Ayleids prayed to her several thousand years ago. Just goes to show that in the elder scrolls, even concepts like Light, Purity and Sanctity aren't always good things.

minfaer

Shaarizad wrote: »

In short, the Daedric Princes are not evil, and they are certainly not Evil. They are what their realms make them.

Exactly. Plus, they are beyond regarding Nirn or the faring of it's people as special enough to have their actions' effects on it judge their actions. To them, Nirn is just essence they want to own.

Mivryna

I've never heard of any rivalry between Meridia and Nocturnal. Way I see it, they might go hand-in-hand, complements to each other. Light radiates throughout space, but there must be a void of space to radiate through. Meridia is the paint, and Nocturnal is the canvas.

PKMN12

minfaer wrote: »

Shaarizad wrote: »

In short, the Daedric Princes are not evil, and they are certainly not Evil. They are what their realms make them.

Exactly. Plus, they are beyond regarding Nirn or the faring of it's people as special enough to have their actions' effects on it judge their actions. To them, Nirn is just essence they want to own.

Except Azura, who DOES seem to actually care for the Dunmer on some level, for reasons no one actually knows.

Ranique

Besides looking at it from a lore perspective, I prefer looking at it from a story perspective.

Molag Bal has many "godlike" enemy's.

Aedra: Aedra are entirely good and have nothing evil in them. That makes them the best protagonist, but it would also make the Daedra more antigonists, which is, just not true. So choosing any of them would give the role of Daedra in the greater story a wrong impression. Besides that, Aedra are what they are, Gods of creation. they are part of the creation and therefor equal to it. They are both more powerfull then Daedra and less capable of having any direct influence now creation is done.

Boethiah: This is molag Bal's main enemy. But he is also an antigonist, simular to Molag Bal.

Ebonarm and Mephala: They are both fitting to take the role as friendly/helping Daedra in this story, but they have strong ties to factions that the story need. Ebonarm is the Daedra connected to the fightersguild while Mephala is connected strongly with the ebonheart pact. By using them, the story would favor those factions too much.

That leaves Meridia. She is perfect to fit into the job, but also has no objections tied to her acting as the protagonist protector.

PKMN12

Ranique wrote: »

Besides looking at it from a lore perspective, I prefer looking at it from a story perspective.

Molag Bal has many "godlike" enemy's.

Aedra: Aedra are entirely good and have nothing evil in them. That makes them the best protagonist, but it would also make the Daedra more antigonists, which is, just not true. So choosing any of them would give the role of Daedra in the greater story a wrong impression. Besides that, Aedra are what they are, Gods of creation. they are part of the creation and therefor equal to it. They are both more powerfull then Daedra and less capable of having any direct influence now creation is done.

Boethiah: This is molag Bal's main enemy. But he is also an antigonist, simular to Molag Bal.

Ebonarm and Mephala: They are both fitting to take the role as friendly/helping Daedra in this story, but they have strong ties to factions that the story need. Ebonarm is the Daedra connected to the fightersguild while Mephala is connected strongly with the ebonheart pact. By using them, the story would favor those factions too much.

That leaves Meridia. She is perfect to fit into the job, but also has no objections tied to her acting as the protagonist protector.

nope, Aedra are NOT good or evil either, heck, there is a quest in Oblivion where the "god of mercy and compassion", stendarr, curses a little kid with a HORRIBLE sickness for something his father (or maybe ancestor, cannot remember specifically) did.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

Shaarizad wrote: »

minfaer wrote: »

Shaarizad wrote: »

Meridia wants to keep everything under her domain clean, pure and sacred.

The way I see it, she only wants this to show her domination... Everything must be shiny and pure. Actually, she looks very theocratical. I agree this is not Bal's way, but I dont like or trust her either, she just doesn't like the looks of Bal's way, but in core, she also seeks domination over Nirn, I believe

I agree, I'm not trying to say Meridia is a good guy. She can be fanatical in her pursuit of purity, and violent in her protection of what she deems sacred. Look no further than Oblivion's Knights of the Nine DLC. She decided to take the side of the slave-holding, torture-loving Ayleids against one of the greatest empires of men because the Ayleids prayed to her several thousand years ago. Just goes to show that in the elder scrolls, even concepts like Light, Purity and Sanctity aren't always good things.

those who worship the light can be evil, just as those who worship the darkness can be good. This fact works in our own world just as it does TES

minfaer

To be honst, the Daedra aren't the type that stands in a circle, each glaring at the one opposite to him and making up their animosities like that.

@Ranique The Aedra differ from the Daerdra only in the fact that they were involved in the cration of Nirn. I believe that this results in a deep care for this plane, which is why we perceive them as good. So, again, they are the incarnation of good only for the mortals. I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

minfaer

Which leaves us at the conclusion that the concepts of "moral" and "fairness" are human inventions, a highly philosophical statement that i regard as true even in the real world.

PKMN12

minfaer wrote: »

I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

actually, in many ways, they are weaker, because they are sort of/kind of partially dead, with their bodies being used to create Nirn.

UrQuan

minfaer wrote: »

To be honst, the Daedra aren't the type that stands in a circle, each glaring at the one opposite to him and making up their animosities like that.

@Ranique The Aedra differ from the Daerdra only in the fact that they were involved in the cration of Nirn. I believe that this results in a deep care for this plane, which is why we perceive them as good. So, again, they are the incarnation of good only for the mortals. I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

In fact, didn't the Aedra actually give up some of their power to create Mundus? Aedra can be killed, while Daedra can only be banished... I'm pretty sure that Aedra are inherently less powerful than Daedra (although with more direct influence on the mortal realm). Of course, that's a generalization, and some individual Aedra may be more powerful than individual Daedra and vice versa.

minfaer

PKMN12 wrote: »

minfaer wrote: »

I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

actually, in many ways, they are weaker, because they are sort of/kind of partially dead, with their bodies being used to create Nirn.

Wasn't that mostly Lorkhan? Sure, they sacrificed part of their essence, but again, the realms of the Daedra ARE their essence taking form in Oblivion. It might be possible that through their connection with Nirn, the Aedra are all connected, somehow "teaming up" and becoming strong.

And how will Tiber Septim fit into this? His ascension means nothing else than the creation of such essence, since it could not be taken out of Nirn without destroying parts of it.

Shunravi

UrQuan wrote: »

minfaer wrote: »

To be honst, the Daedra aren't the type that stands in a circle, each glaring at the one opposite to him and making up their animosities like that.

@Ranique The Aedra differ from the Daerdra only in the fact that they were involved in the cration of Nirn. I believe that this results in a deep care for this plane, which is why we perceive them as good. So, again, they are the incarnation of good only for the mortals. I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

In fact, didn't the Aedra actually give up some of their power to create Mundus? Aedra can be killed, while Daedra can only be banished... I'm pretty sure that Aedra are inherently less powerful than Daedra (although with more direct influence on the mortal realm). Of course, that's a generalization, and some individual Aedra may be more powerful than individual Daedra and vice versa.

I believe that's the case, yes. Akatosh is considered very powerfull, but that's because he is the Lord of time. But, even then, I'm sure there are areas and aspects of oblivion that are timeless. and daedra, being immortal, have a different perspective on time that could counter Akatosh. And then there are Daedra like Jyggalag who predicted every possible evntuality.

Enodoc

minfaer wrote: »

And how will Tiber Septim fit into this? His ascension means nothing else than the creation of such essence, since it could not be taken out of Nirn without destroying parts of it.

One theory is that Tiber Septim's divinity is a part of the same divine essence that is Shezarr, or Lorkhan, and is not a newly-created essence. See Shezzarine.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

minfaer wrote: »

To be honst, the Daedra aren't the type that stands in a circle, each glaring at the one opposite to him and making up their animosities like that.

@Ranique The Aedra differ from the Daerdra only in the fact that they were involved in the cration of Nirn. I believe that this results in a deep care for this plane, which is why we perceive them as good. So, again, they are the incarnation of good only for the mortals. I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

i remember reading awhile back that a big difference between aedra and daedra are that the daedra lack the ability of original creation. Daedra can alter, they can corrupt, but they cant create anything truly original. ON the other hand, mortals and aedra can create original creations.

minfaer

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

minfaer wrote: »

To be honst, the Daedra aren't the type that stands in a circle, each glaring at the one opposite to him and making up their animosities like that.

@Ranique The Aedra differ from the Daerdra only in the fact that they were involved in the cration of Nirn. I believe that this results in a deep care for this plane, which is why we perceive them as good. So, again, they are the incarnation of good only for the mortals. I highly doubt they are inherently more powerfull than the Daedra, at least outside of the realm they crerated.

i remember reading awhile back that a big difference between aedra and daedra are that the daedra lack the ability of original creation. Daedra can alter, they can corrupt, but they cant create anything truly original. ON the other hand, mortals and aedra can create original creations.

I did read that on a loading screen a while back, i think, but to be precise, I don't belive this. They are the ultimate craftsmen, create items and notions that are very original, and are free to imbue it with power. They just tend to immitate and corrupt, showing their envy of Nirn, which is unique for the plane is set free by it's creators.

Cinbri

PKMN12 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

um, no, they are not good or evil, more like Blue and Orange with their Morality. that has ALWAYS been the major thing with TES, that the Daedra are NOT good or evil, they are neither, they think on a completely different wavelength to us.

Also, yeah please, call AZura, the patron of the Dunmer, evil............

So called nautrality to hide evil nature, and history just showed how those neutral interfered with Nirn. And, yes, i wanna say thx to Azura and her champion Nerevarine for destroying Morrowind and almost exterminate dunmer nation.

minfaer

Cinbri wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

No matter what Deadra doind or looks like, they are all Evil itself.

um, no, they are not good or evil, more like Blue and Orange with their Morality. that has ALWAYS been the major thing with TES, that the Daedra are NOT good or evil, they are neither, they think on a completely different wavelength to us.

Also, yeah please, call AZura, the patron of the Dunmer, evil............

So called nautrality to hide evil nature, and history just showed how those neutral interfered with Nirn. And, yes, i wanna say thx to Azura and her champion Nerevarine for destroying Morrowind and almost exterminate dunmer nation.

Sorry, I need to stray a little OT here

I never understand people talking about good and bad. That always reminds me of infants or religious fundamentalists desperately wishing for a world that would be in such simple terms so they could understand it. No offense intended to anywhom, but some people just can't imagine a world beyond their little ideas of values.

I'd recommend Nietzsche, excellent read! Or Sartre. Might even like Milton, if centuries-old poetry is your style.

I dont want to sound like some leave-me rogue-like character. I mostly hate those. But answer me these simple questions:
Why is good good and evil evil? Who decides what is what?
I'll be there if anyone's to open an OT-thread about the arrogant judgmental way in which for example China is depicted in western media.

BTT: There is no evil nature, just nature, and if you don't like the nature of the Daedra, no need to imply it is inherently wrong or evil. Molag Bal and I have a mere conflict of interest.

What exactly did Azura destroy? She did not even remove the Tribunal's powers, they offered it themselves after Vivec realized it would be necessary.